[snapetom]

At my most recent job, 2022-2025, I saw this under the guise of SAFE agile.

Previously, no, you're right. I've always worked in aggressive engineering teams with Product and Engineering closely aligned. My last company, though, was utter undisciplined chaos for decades. SAFE was an attempt to try something to corral teams together even though it basically became waterfall.

[AnimalMuppet]

Honest question: Is waterfall better or worse than utter undisciplined chaos?

[snapetom]

I really don't know how to answer that. I've seemed to experience the peak worst of both.

In waterfall, I was a young programmer in a big, disciplined, corporate environment and spent about 2/3 of my time doing documentation and meetings rather than writing code. I nearly switched careers because that wasn't what I signed up for.

In chaosland, I came in as a PM well after the company's heydey trying to sort out the mess. I wasn't there for the trips on yachts with everyone drunk. I spent my years there asking, "wtf were you guys thinking" and the answer was always, "seemed like a good idea at the time."