I only know a tiny corner of the language, but for things like this I really wish they'd cite the original Japanese. Precisely because the haiku is a constrained form, it is also an opportunity for ambiguity, double-meaning, and cases where a word may be translated with the same semantics but different connotations.
Agree 10,000 fold.
English and Japanese are so different and have such different standards of aesthetics and literary form that good translations are like independent creations inspired by the original.
I would like to know that the original form was.
Even a word by word ungrammatical transliteration would be helpful. But not to have the Japanese available means I cannot even look it up...
As a native Japanese speaker, I'm happy to see our literature introduced to other countries. But I also feel conflicted.
The original Japanese of the first poem is:
おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉
The translation on the site:
> I am not worthy
> of this crimson carpet:
> autumn maple leaves.
This contains the translator's interpretation, and the sound and intonation are completely lost. I admire the translator's effort, but I want visitors to understand how much this differs from the original.
This is the general problem with literature and poetry especially. They're not entirely translatable.
- Languages are part of culture and they are historically conditioned, making them necessarily bounded and finite [0]. While the essential thing signified may be the same for corresponding words in two languages (snow vs. Schnee), there is variance in semantic emphasis, connotation, and symbolic significance. In other words, the pragmatic aspect of language is highly contextual and conditioned.
- Words can be used univocally, equivocally, or analogically, and there isn't necessarily a correspondence between these constellations across any two languages. But so much of wordplay trades on such constellations.
- The syntactic and phonetic features peculiar to a language - apart from the what is signified per se - is heavily exploited by poetry.
[0] This reminds me of words like the Greek λόγος (logos), which does not find a satisfactory counterpart in any language as far as I can tell. (Approximations are Tao, Ṛta, or Ma'at, for instance.) You see this difficulty in the translation of John 1 where it is usually rendered verbum or word, which have their own perfections, but fail to do justice to the richness of the original meaning of Logos in passages like John 1:1 and 1:3: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [...] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." When you substitute "Word" with "Logos", you can clearly see how much more pregnant that message is, e.g., that, contrary to the pagan mythology of those John was addressing, in the beginning there was order, not chaos; that God is Reason; that everything that exists is caused by God and therefore fundamentally intelligible. (Curiously, the Latin Verbum is better than the Greek at emphasizing the procession of divine Reason as Second Person from the First Person in the Trinity.)
Sound and intonation are never going to translate between Japanese and English. It's not even on the table.
Such things can't even necessarily translate well between two languages as similar as French and English. Japanese and English is completely hopeless.
It's true in the other direction too, though this being an English site it might be more easily neglected. I've seen some English songs translated into Japanese, keeping the same syllable count scheme. The Japanese is radically simplified compared to the English, with entire adverbs, adjectives, even clauses removed. And that's even before we ask whether Japanese necessarily has the correct words to translate some of the richer English concepts with their own centuries of history and connotation behind them that these songs contained.
It is what it is. There isn't much that can be done about it. Even if someone made an exhaustive translation of something, it could never be repacked into something that matches the original concise packing.
As a native speaker, would there be any way that you could translate this back one poem back into Japanese? I am curious what the original would be, and if the translation was truly accurate. It was favorite one from the article:
RAIZAN (来山)
Died on the 3rd day of the 10th month, 1716 at the age of 63
Don’t just stand there with your hair turning gray,
soon enough the seas will sink your little island.
So while there is still the illusion of time,
set out for another shore.
No sense packing a bag.
You won’t be able to lift it into your boat.
Give away all your collections.
Take only new seeds and an old stick.
Send out some prayers on the wind before you sail.
Don’t be afraid.
Someone knows you’re coming.
An extra fish has been salted.
by Mona (Sono) Santacroce (1928–1995)
from The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully by Frank Ostaseski
Now that my storehouse
has burned down, nothing
conceals the moon.
This piece instantly reminded me of Ashes and Snow movie, where one of the poems has very similar opening (followed, in my opinion, by even more beautiful piece, which you can easily find if interested):
Ever since my house burnt down,
I see the moon more clearly
I wonder whether or not this is just a coincidence.
Having a mental illness and being homeless I sit with my life now and let it melt. I know death is coming so I just let it come. I tried to force death to come twice, but I found that suffering is really no different that joy.
I live in a van right now so I am upper class homeless but soon I may be totally shelterless. Part of me is looking forward to it. Through the last ten years, moving from riches to rags, all my past attachments, all I can do is laugh at myself. There is such a weird liberation in inescapable suffering and I hope you all get to experience it someday.
In the topic of death poems, I consider "You Want It Darker" by Leonard Cohen a masterpiece. He was 83 with terminal cancer. Yet, this song captures both his wit & spirit at its height.
I don't know whether there is a specific japanese cultural explanation, but in general it often was. In winter when it was cold, those who lacked the strength to go on, layed down in the snow to rest forever.
spirits travel to rest in the mountains after death. the mountain is a place between life and death. there is much association between mountains and death. then by extension snow
pjc50|6 days ago
By comparison, the gold standard for dealing with non-English poetry in English: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1...
You have (1) the original Greek, (2) word-by-word lookup, (3) translation notes, and (4) multiple translations.
tl2do|6 days ago
Original Kanji - hiragana works: おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉
How it sounds: Oh ke naki Yukano nishikiya chiri ko yo
buntsai|6 days ago
tl2do|6 days ago
The original Japanese of the first poem is:
おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉
The translation on the site:
> I am not worthy > of this crimson carpet: > autumn maple leaves.
This contains the translator's interpretation, and the sound and intonation are completely lost. I admire the translator's effort, but I want visitors to understand how much this differs from the original.
lo_zamoyski|6 days ago
- Languages are part of culture and they are historically conditioned, making them necessarily bounded and finite [0]. While the essential thing signified may be the same for corresponding words in two languages (snow vs. Schnee), there is variance in semantic emphasis, connotation, and symbolic significance. In other words, the pragmatic aspect of language is highly contextual and conditioned.
- Words can be used univocally, equivocally, or analogically, and there isn't necessarily a correspondence between these constellations across any two languages. But so much of wordplay trades on such constellations.
- The syntactic and phonetic features peculiar to a language - apart from the what is signified per se - is heavily exploited by poetry.
[0] This reminds me of words like the Greek λόγος (logos), which does not find a satisfactory counterpart in any language as far as I can tell. (Approximations are Tao, Ṛta, or Ma'at, for instance.) You see this difficulty in the translation of John 1 where it is usually rendered verbum or word, which have their own perfections, but fail to do justice to the richness of the original meaning of Logos in passages like John 1:1 and 1:3: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [...] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." When you substitute "Word" with "Logos", you can clearly see how much more pregnant that message is, e.g., that, contrary to the pagan mythology of those John was addressing, in the beginning there was order, not chaos; that God is Reason; that everything that exists is caused by God and therefore fundamentally intelligible. (Curiously, the Latin Verbum is better than the Greek at emphasizing the procession of divine Reason as Second Person from the First Person in the Trinity.)
darkerside|6 days ago
I would prefer to know how each line would be best interpreted if it weren't a haiku
jerf|5 days ago
Such things can't even necessarily translate well between two languages as similar as French and English. Japanese and English is completely hopeless.
It's true in the other direction too, though this being an English site it might be more easily neglected. I've seen some English songs translated into Japanese, keeping the same syllable count scheme. The Japanese is radically simplified compared to the English, with entire adverbs, adjectives, even clauses removed. And that's even before we ask whether Japanese necessarily has the correct words to translate some of the richer English concepts with their own centuries of history and connotation behind them that these songs contained.
It is what it is. There isn't much that can be done about it. Even if someone made an exhaustive translation of something, it could never be repacked into something that matches the original concise packing.
hirvi74|4 days ago
RAIZAN (来山) Died on the 3rd day of the 10th month, 1716 at the age of 63
Farewell, sire—
like snow, from water come
to water gone.
andyjohnson0|6 days ago
from The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully by Frank Ostaseski
seletskiy|6 days ago
aanet|6 days ago
`My house burnt down
I can now see better
The rising moon`
[1] https://www.mariashriversundaypaper.com/pico-iyers-fire-grie...
the_sleaze_|5 days ago
A different translation of the same
Noaidi|6 days ago
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.
~~
Having a mental illness and being homeless I sit with my life now and let it melt. I know death is coming so I just let it come. I tried to force death to come twice, but I found that suffering is really no different that joy.
I live in a van right now so I am upper class homeless but soon I may be totally shelterless. Part of me is looking forward to it. Through the last ten years, moving from riches to rags, all my past attachments, all I can do is laugh at myself. There is such a weird liberation in inescapable suffering and I hope you all get to experience it someday.
jackdoe|5 days ago
ge96|5 days ago
Maybe just one word F
Makes me think of that infinite improbability drive scene 2005, these people reach the end of their maze, life path
stared|6 days ago
locusofself|5 days ago
DaedalusII|6 days ago
I am circling my prey
If I am strong, the world will finally let us be
https://pearlharbor.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/USS-Essex...
evanjrowley|6 days ago
layman51|5 days ago
pndy|6 days ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epitaph?useskin=vector
HardwareLust|5 days ago
pelasaco|6 days ago
In the original, the image of a dream is combined with the cruder image of passing wind.."
Is the wind representing the fart here?
pjc50|6 days ago
The original word order also puts the dream at the start and drops fart right at the end, which I think is funnier than putting it on the first line.
shawn_w|6 days ago
Rooster61|5 days ago
written word austerity;
Death, captured in time
ThrowawayTestr|6 days ago
are mere delusion—
death is death."
Hardcore
block_dagger|6 days ago
lukan|6 days ago
DaedalusII|6 days ago