[einr]

Yeah, but people don't really want to use the BSD userspace. A lot of the Linux stuff people want to build on assumes a GNU userland and it's not trivial to build a BSD/Linux that actually does relevant computer stuff.

But in places where that stuff isn't relevant, we already see a lot of locked-down devices like the Nintendo Switch and PlayStation based on BSD precisely because they can leverage free software but still lock it down. macOS with its BSD userland is also kind of like this -- the OS is getting gradually more locked down over time, but the frog boils slowly.

If you tighten the screws too hard and fast then people will scream and yell and maybe leave your business for a competitor -- even though it's technically feasible, that means you can't disallow access to banking websites for generic-browser-on-generic-OS now. But we are, brick by brick, building a foundation where that will seem inevitable.

The argument is basically that making it easier to lock down general purpose computing devices like desktop computers (by, for example, making a non-GPL drop-in replacement for GNU *utils) will eventually aid in making it happen. The powers that be will use tried-and-true arguments about security and think-of-the-kids etc to make it seem like running a mutable, untrusted OS is an unacceptable risk.

[duskdozer]

>that means you can't disallow access to banking websites for generic-browser-on-generic-OS now. But we are, brick by brick, building a foundation where that will seem inevitable.

If you have too much non-standard stuff going on in your browser or mobile device, this is already happening, to a degree. Not a hard block, but increasing difficulties

[bigfishrunning]

People give away their freedoms all the time. Most people are walking around with facebook and tiktok tracking their every move. they don't care.

Some linux users aren't going to stop this sort of thing from happening. If Chase Bank wants to only allow MacOS and Windows 11 computers to access their website, the 1% of their userbase that uses something else isn't going to move the needle, and 99% of their users won't care (or even notice).

If this was going to happen, it would have already happened. The pieces are all there already.

[einr]

People give away their freedoms all the time. Most people are walking around with facebook and tiktok tracking their every move. they don't care.

This is absolutely true. I'm saying someone should care, because it does matter.

Some linux users aren't going to stop this sort of thing from happening. If Chase Bank wants to only allow MacOS and Windows 11 computers to access their website, the 1% of their userbase that uses something else isn't going to move the needle, and 99% of their users won't care (or even notice).

For some businesses, losing 1% of your customers is actually a lot of customers and a lot of money, and all else being equal they would prefer to not lose them.

If this was going to happen, it would have already happened. The pieces are all there already.

No, they really aren't. Again, it's perhaps technically feasible to flip the switch, but it doesn't make business sense yet.

How many people are doing online banking without running on a fully cryptographically verifiable/attestable OS? This means everyone not using a TPM, Secure Boot, etc. This means grandpa with an old Windows 10 machine or an old Mac that perhaps he should not still be using but he doesn't care, he just wants to pay his bills. I don't have numbers of course but I bet you this starts looking like a hell of a lot more than 1% of the userbase.

There are web APIs for this sort of thing in all major browsers but no one is really using them yet. But they exist for a reason, much like Windows 11 requires a TPM for a reason, and this tech will at some point be deployed for things like online banking. Of course it will.

[bayindirh]

> If this was going to happen, it would have already happened. The pieces are all there already.

Same things were said for:

    - Removal of DRM from music: Happened.
    - Age verification in the internet: Happening.
    - Locked down personal devices: Happened.
    - Total surveillance in cities: Happened.
    - Not being able to buy but only rent: Happened in many digital formats.
    - Internet activation of software: Happened.
    - Tracking individual persons real-time: Happened.
    - Browser attestation: Google is trying hard.
    - Attestation for Internet Banking: Reality in S. Korea.

etc. etc.