top | item 47138698

80386 Protection

123 points| nand2mario | 5 days ago |nand2mario.github.io

30 comments

order

dsign|3 days ago

I've wondered for a long time if we would have been able to make do without protected mode (or hardware protection in general) if user code was verified/compiled at load, e.g. the way the JVM or .NET do it...Could the shift on transistor budget have been used to offset any performance losses?

st_goliath|3 days ago

Microsoft Research had an experimental OS project at one point that does just that with everything running in ring 0 in the same address space:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularity_(operating_system)

Managed code, the properties of their C# derived programming language, static analysis and verification were used rather than hardware exception handling.

rwmj|3 days ago

I think the interesting thing about having protection in software is you can do things differently, and possibly better. Computers of yesteryear had protection at the individual object level (eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_Large_Systems). This was too expensive to do in 1970s hardware and so performance sucked. Maybe it could be done in software better with more modern optimizing compilers and perhaps a few bits of hardware acceleration here and there? There's definitely an interesting research project to be done.

rwallace|2 days ago

I looked into that, concluded the spoiler is Specter.

Basically, you have to have out of order/speculative execution if you ultimately want the best performance on general/integer workloads. And once you have that, timing information is going to leak from one process into another, and that timing information can be used to infer the contents of memory. As far as I can see, there is no way to block this in software. No substitute for the CPU knowing 'that page should not be accessible to this process, activate timing leak mitigation'.

4j452j45nj|3 days ago

ah, PDE/PTE A/D writes... what a source of variety over the decades!

some chips set them step by step, as shown in the article

others only set them at them very end, together

and then there are chips which follow the read-modify-write op with another read, to check if the RMW succeeded... which promptly causes them to hang hard when the page tables live in read-only memory i.e. ROM... fun fun fun!

as for segmentation fun... think about CS always being writeable in real mode... even though the access rights only have a R but no W bit for it...

rep_lodsb|2 days ago

That's because CS in real/V86 mode is actually a writable data segment. Most protection checks work exactly the same in any mode, but the "is this a code segment?" check is only done when CS is loaded in protected mode, and not on any subsequent code fetch.

Using a non-standard mechanism of loading CS (LOADALL or RSM), it's possible to have a writable CS in protected mode too, at least on these older processors.

There's actually a slight difference in the access rights byte that gets loaded into the hidden part of a segment register (aka "descriptor cache") between real and protected mode. I first noticed this on the 80286, and it looks to be the same on the 386:

- In protected mode, the byte always matches that from the GDT/LDT entry: bit 4 (code/data segment vs. system) must be set, the segment load instruction won't allow otherwise, bit 0 (accessed) is set automatically (and written back to memory).

- In real and V86 mode, both of these bits are clear. So in V86 mode the value is 0xE2 instead of the "correct" 0xF3 for a ring 3 data segment, and similarly in real mode it's 0x82 (ring 0).

The hardware seems to simply ignore these bits, but they still exist in the register, unlike other "useless" bits. For example, LDT only has bit 7 (present), and GDT/IDT/TSS have no access rights byte at all - they're always assumed to be present, and the access rights byte reads as 0xFF. At least on the 286 that was the case, I've read that on the Pentium you can even mark GDT as not-present, and then get a triple fault on any access to it.

Keeping these bits, and having them different between modes might have been an intentional choice, making it possible to determine (by ICE monitor software) in what mode a segment got loaded. Maybe even the two other possible combinations (where bit4 != bit0) have some use to mark a "special" segment type that is never set by hardware?

jejgkgkldl|3 days ago

Article states that win 3.0 used 32-bit flat addressing mode, but when win 95 launched ms said win 3.0 didn’t (in 386 mode).

shakna|3 days ago

Pretty sure Enhanced Mode, that only came later in Windows 3.11 for Workgroup, is the one that supported the flat addressing mode.

this-is-why|3 days ago

It used segmented 32-bit mode. Flat mode doesn’t support virtual addressing which was accomplished with the descriptor tables (and the ES register) if I recall correctly. lol it’s been 33 years since I wrote windows drivers. Had to use masm to compile the 16-bit segments to thunk to the kernel

fortran77|3 days ago

> These features made possible Windows 3.0, OS/2, and early Linux.

And also--before Linux--SCO Xenix and then SCO Unix. It was finally possible to run a real Unix on a desktop or home PC. A real game changer. I paid big $$$ (for me at the time) to get SCO Xenix for my 386 so I could have my own Unix system.

whobre|3 days ago

Xenix 2.1 could run on the IBM PC XT with Intel 8088 in late 1983, IIRC, and even before that on the Altos 586 which had MMU as an external chip.

classichasclass|2 days ago

Don't forget Venix. It was the first true Unix that could run on a stock IBM PC, and beat Xenix on that platform by months.

inigyou|3 days ago

Interesting to see how hardware designers of yesteryear did things, and why CPUs are so complicated and have so many bugs.