Let me guess, you think that Ukrainians also really want to be part of Russia and that they are just being manipulated by Westerners and that true Ukrainians wanna be part of Russian Empire? And that Russians are just liberating them.
A key difference is that Ukraine has land borders with the EU, with significant potential for trade, while Georgia lacks land borders with the EU which limits the potential in harnessing the single market.
That's not a key difference though, that's the same situation Greece was from 1981 until 2007 when Bulgaria and Romania joined, and Ireland, Cyprus and Malta are still in this situation (unlikely to change). And again similar to Greece and Ireland Georgia has access to sea ports, and Bulgaria and Romanian ports are not far away.
Not sure where you got that. Sounds like trying to use tropes from a superficial Hollywood action movie in real life, not my thing.
I think that a Ukrainian in his sane mind would want to look at options he's dealt and pick the one that leads to most safety and prosperity to him and his family. At the same time the government ideologues are trying to indoctrinate him with nationalism to sacrifice it all for their goals. More or less the same for an average Russian in his sane mind.
I personally believe that 2014 (and not complying with Minsk 2) has set Ukraine on course that's much worse for the safety and prosperity of an average citizen (albeit better for the nationalist ideologues). Complying with Minsk 2 would give Russia a lot of control over Ukraine (pro-Russian East gets autonomy, but gets to vote on national elections), which would be bad for nationalists who are afraid (and rightfully so) of Ukraine's young statehood sink into oblivion. But would be alright for a citizen: no dramatic change, you keep gradually improving your life, no war, you don't die for nothing.
> I think that a Ukrainian in his sane mind would want to look at options he's dealt and pick the one that leads to most safety and prosperity to him and his family.
They have done this back in 2010's and decided that EU is the safe and prosperous future they want. In response, Russian mass murderers invaded and started to kill them. That is indeed a great ad for safety and prosperity inside the Russian world: you will be miserable and we will kill you whenever we feel like it.
Do you think that it is meaningful to think about things being good or evil in a manner that is separate from what is "safe" or "prosperous"? If someone points a gun at you and demands all your money, the safe thing is to give it to them. Does that mean it's a good outcome for all?
For some reason, non-trivial amount of people prefer living in freedom instead of oppression, heck even risk their lives to have a better future for themselves and their children. russia offers none of that even to core russians, its a neonazi oligarch mafia state that treats its own citizens like disposable garbage, the minorities in far regions even much worse. I've grown up during communism in one of their subjugated vasal states, and we were basically in concentration camp - no movement outside the borders even within eastern bloc unless approved by regime, no freedom of thought or expression, any dissent was crushed brutally. Their troops in our country were around 5% of our population by numbers just to make sure there are no funky freedom ideas happening.
If you ever cared about history you can trivially find absolutely horrible things russians/soviets (always coming from moscow which always sets the tone) did consistently to Ukraine. If you ever care about facts you could trivially check how russian oppressors behave on conquered ukrainian territories these days - mass executions of civilians, torture chambers in every second home, old grannies shot in the back of their head from point blank range with hands tied behind their backs, lying in mass graves - the stories around 2023when Ukraine managed to free up some territory were pretty consistent.
So no, you are incorrect, if you ever cared about the topic you would know it pretty well. Or you know it and try to make some soft influence on the topic. Unfortunately russia is such a horrible actor these days, at this point universally and globally despised so that it became an insult to be called russian or associated with it in most places around the world. Their own doing, and when facing ridiculous defeat and humiliation they just double down in that clown theatre.
The fact that most russians still support invasion and random independent polls end up with consistent strong support for war and all ridiculous russian claims, leaves practically no hope for their future. Cancer of the humanity at this point, its easier to have more respect for North Korea regime.
fodkodrasz|4 days ago
tpm|4 days ago
gnull|4 days ago
I think that a Ukrainian in his sane mind would want to look at options he's dealt and pick the one that leads to most safety and prosperity to him and his family. At the same time the government ideologues are trying to indoctrinate him with nationalism to sacrifice it all for their goals. More or less the same for an average Russian in his sane mind.
I personally believe that 2014 (and not complying with Minsk 2) has set Ukraine on course that's much worse for the safety and prosperity of an average citizen (albeit better for the nationalist ideologues). Complying with Minsk 2 would give Russia a lot of control over Ukraine (pro-Russian East gets autonomy, but gets to vote on national elections), which would be bad for nationalists who are afraid (and rightfully so) of Ukraine's young statehood sink into oblivion. But would be alright for a citizen: no dramatic change, you keep gradually improving your life, no war, you don't die for nothing.
tpm|4 days ago
They have done this back in 2010's and decided that EU is the safe and prosperous future they want. In response, Russian mass murderers invaded and started to kill them. That is indeed a great ad for safety and prosperity inside the Russian world: you will be miserable and we will kill you whenever we feel like it.
Stop apologising pure evil.
BrenBarn|4 days ago
kakacik|4 days ago
If you ever cared about history you can trivially find absolutely horrible things russians/soviets (always coming from moscow which always sets the tone) did consistently to Ukraine. If you ever care about facts you could trivially check how russian oppressors behave on conquered ukrainian territories these days - mass executions of civilians, torture chambers in every second home, old grannies shot in the back of their head from point blank range with hands tied behind their backs, lying in mass graves - the stories around 2023when Ukraine managed to free up some territory were pretty consistent.
So no, you are incorrect, if you ever cared about the topic you would know it pretty well. Or you know it and try to make some soft influence on the topic. Unfortunately russia is such a horrible actor these days, at this point universally and globally despised so that it became an insult to be called russian or associated with it in most places around the world. Their own doing, and when facing ridiculous defeat and humiliation they just double down in that clown theatre.
The fact that most russians still support invasion and random independent polls end up with consistent strong support for war and all ridiculous russian claims, leaves practically no hope for their future. Cancer of the humanity at this point, its easier to have more respect for North Korea regime.
unknown|4 days ago
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