I moved when Obama was president. I sincerely believed that we were in a post racial world. Imagine my surprise in seeing people proudly flying confederate flags in Austin!
I am still hopeful. While that flag was considered “ok” then, it no longer is anymore, and I rarely see it in the urban areas.
I wonder what this will do to the US developer salary premium. You could, for reasons I never entirely understood, make so much more money doing the same job in the US than anywhere else. And I don't mean comparing to India or China, but comparable CoL countries in e.g. Europe.
Sure, US is more productive, has bigger tech companies, attracts talent, and not least, their hectocorns are truly making the world a better place with their CRUD apps and REST APIs.
But at these levels of imbalance, already a long time ago I would have expected US companies to move a lot of their software engineering efforts to Europe or India or elsewhere, and it just wasn't happening, despite SE being one of the most remote-able jobs ever.
But now, the trickle of expat workers into the US appears to be drying up, apparently Americans are leaving too. There will be more and more pressure for these companies to hire abroad even for non-monetary reasons (as is already happening) and I fear for my fellow American HNians that they will like paying a fraction of the cost for the same job.
> make so much more money doing the same job in the US than anywhere else.
Unless you are comparing with top-paying faang employers, the difference is not as stark I think.
Once you deduct the higher cost of every day things, medical expenses, education fees, and other social safety net stuff that you typically get for free in EU, and compound that with a weak dollar, you'll see that the typical EU salary is probably not all that bad. Otherwise, as you say, companies would have outsourced to EU rather than India for example.
There's also a non-zero number of Canadian engineers in the US. No visa required, just a job acceptance letter for TN status at the border. Minimal language or cultural barrier and educated at competitive colleges. Those workers are going to take their US salaries and experience back to Canada if the US continues to alienate its neighbors. Canada is also building a lot more connections with nations that the US is shunning, like China.
> You could, for reasons I never entirely understood, make so much more money doing the same job in the US than anywhere else. [...] e.g. Europe.
It really, really depends. First, not every SE works at top companies, and even there the salary can vary much. Second, in Europe you can often choose your contract type - if you choose a permanent role, you surely earn less, but at the same time enjoy the level of social security your counterparts at FAANG can dream of. If you choose to be a contractor, the median will still be lower than in the US, but not that lower.
I imagine because the other jobs all around SE isn't as outsourcable. Designs and PM in particular. At some point the timezone pain is not worth the cost savings.
On a meta note, this comment section is absolutely littered with flagged and dead comments from fresh accounts. There are certain topics that really bring out the emotions.
Canada is actively recruiting healthcare workers and it's apparently become quite easy to get people to move up. If I were a healthcare worker I wouldn't have to think about it for very long before having the U-Haul loaded up and ready to go.
If you are in Spain on a tourist visa, and apply for the equivalent of a digital nomad visa while in country, you get three years as a temporary resident. At three years, you re-apply for another two years, and after those five years you can apply for permanent residency. 80% of your income must come from outside of Spain. They’ll even take a letter from a US W2 employer as income verification. One example of an exit strategy you can move on almost immediately, depending on your circumstances.
I have several US friends who got European citizenship through ancestry. They found a great grandmother or something from "the old country" and by proving their relation to them could get a passport.
I have quite a bit of family in Germany, and have had several friends move from the US to Europe. Europe absolutely knows that they have an opportunity to capture a ton of talent right now. If you have skills that are in demand, basically any country in the Schengen zone will find a way to get you a visa. For example, if you’re a trans researcher, you will find open arms at academic institutions in Europe.
You could also lie and claim your address as a US address, and then just live in another country. This is obviously illegal, but I’ve met a few people who made it work for a while. But I’m also speaking abstractly on the internet, so maybe I’m just making all this up.
> It's not like people can just decide to move to another country and they will say "sure, come on in!"
Many countries actively try to attract skilled migrants with simple, points-based immigration systems and fast processing times.
Simply having a bachelor's degree, 5+ years of work experience, and fluency in the local language will get you on the fast-track to a permanent working visa in many countries.
It's very hard to get a UK work visa normally (and getting a lot harder each year, like in the US), but if you are a HN type with a good tech, start-up, investor, or researcher career, they roll out the red carpet for you.
If you qualify, you get a 'Tier 1' visa where you can work at any company without sponsorship, change jobs at any time just like a citizen, or start your own company with no fear of your visa being tied to a job. You can become a citizen yourself in 5 years.
Source: Am now UK citizen
Various other European countries have similar programs with different requirements. Netherlands, Portugal, and Spain are common places that a lot of US people go depending on what options they have to qualify and where they want to be. Spain has a digital nomad visa right now that is easy to get.
If you're a doctor or nurse Canada is definitely saying "sure, come on in!" - they're actively recruiting in the US for healthcare workers. But that's because like most other countries they've got a shortage of health care workers. They're not likely to tell us software engineers that we can com on in.
According to an LLM I asked, about 80 countries have a way in for $$$.
I was superprized it was as high as 80, assuming I can beleive the answer. I knew though that the USA is one of them. Also Singapore, since it was big news when the co-founder of Facebook did it.
There are a few dozen countries that one can buy citizenship. Some require investing in something or starting their own business. Search for "countries that offer citizenship for money". Some places will pay for people to move their under certain conditions and lack of criminal history.
It could be beneficial to if working abroad because the United States is one of the only countries on the planet that taxes earned wages abroad while offering absolutely zero tangible benefits to those who do, perhaps besides the passport itself.
I don't know why you got downvoted for just asking a question. I'd be curious too. In some countries it's much easy to become a citizen (give up your previous citizenship) than it is to get permanent residency permission (in which you're still technically a citizen of your previous country)
Translation: I didn't read this, so I don't know what it says and I don't know what I'm talking about, but I desperately need to post on the internet, so here's something I just made up…
OsrsNeedsf2P|5 days ago
Not one of them has answered yes.
pm90|5 days ago
I am still hopeful. While that flag was considered “ok” then, it no longer is anymore, and I rarely see it in the urban areas.
unknown|5 days ago
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unknown|5 days ago
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unknown|5 days ago
[deleted]
unknown|5 days ago
[deleted]
wrs|5 days ago
[deleted]
rich_sasha|5 days ago
Sure, US is more productive, has bigger tech companies, attracts talent, and not least, their hectocorns are truly making the world a better place with their CRUD apps and REST APIs.
But at these levels of imbalance, already a long time ago I would have expected US companies to move a lot of their software engineering efforts to Europe or India or elsewhere, and it just wasn't happening, despite SE being one of the most remote-able jobs ever.
But now, the trickle of expat workers into the US appears to be drying up, apparently Americans are leaving too. There will be more and more pressure for these companies to hire abroad even for non-monetary reasons (as is already happening) and I fear for my fellow American HNians that they will like paying a fraction of the cost for the same job.
beAbU|5 days ago
Unless you are comparing with top-paying faang employers, the difference is not as stark I think.
Once you deduct the higher cost of every day things, medical expenses, education fees, and other social safety net stuff that you typically get for free in EU, and compound that with a weak dollar, you'll see that the typical EU salary is probably not all that bad. Otherwise, as you say, companies would have outsourced to EU rather than India for example.
jerlam|5 days ago
Might be time for a new Blackberry.
benterix|5 days ago
It really, really depends. First, not every SE works at top companies, and even there the salary can vary much. Second, in Europe you can often choose your contract type - if you choose a permanent role, you surely earn less, but at the same time enjoy the level of social security your counterparts at FAANG can dream of. If you choose to be a contractor, the median will still be lower than in the US, but not that lower.
HaloZero|5 days ago
WD-42|5 days ago
atomicfiredoll|5 days ago
Or, based on this thread from yesterday, the fresh accounts are bots and/or disinformation: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes[0].
- [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47152085
frm88|5 days ago
smartbit|5 days ago
toomuchtodo|5 days ago
UncleOxidant|5 days ago
anonnon|5 days ago
[deleted]
1vuio0pswjnm7|4 days ago
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/americans-are-leaving-t...
No Javascript, text-only, HTTPS opitional:
https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/AA1X5a4f...
unknown|5 days ago
[deleted]
ranger_danger|5 days ago
Are they getting visas from work or a spouse or something? Surely that does not account for a vast majority of cases?
toomuchtodo|5 days ago
Resources:
https://relocateme.substack.com/
https://old.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/comments/urwlbr/a_guide_fo...
https://old.reddit.com/user/Shufflebuzz/comments/1iv4dud/shu...
https://www.helpmeleave.us/
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se... (Canadian citizenship by descent)
https://lookerstudio.google.com/reporting/b58914ce-b98d-4330... from https://pancakeonastick.substack.com/ (Digital Nomad Visa Map)
kalleboo|5 days ago
ProllyInfamous|5 days ago
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT>
This can lead to eventual citizenship, but you have to follow the rules (e.g. monetary requirements, which are actually quite low).
peterlk|5 days ago
You could also lie and claim your address as a US address, and then just live in another country. This is obviously illegal, but I’ve met a few people who made it work for a while. But I’m also speaking abstractly on the internet, so maybe I’m just making all this up.
ytoawwhra92|5 days ago
Many countries actively try to attract skilled migrants with simple, points-based immigration systems and fast processing times.
Simply having a bachelor's degree, 5+ years of work experience, and fluency in the local language will get you on the fast-track to a permanent working visa in many countries.
ageitgey|5 days ago
https://www.gov.uk/global-talent
If you qualify, you get a 'Tier 1' visa where you can work at any company without sponsorship, change jobs at any time just like a citizen, or start your own company with no fear of your visa being tied to a job. You can become a citizen yourself in 5 years.
Source: Am now UK citizen
Various other European countries have similar programs with different requirements. Netherlands, Portugal, and Spain are common places that a lot of US people go depending on what options they have to qualify and where they want to be. Spain has a digital nomad visa right now that is easy to get.
UncleOxidant|5 days ago
socalgal2|5 days ago
I was superprized it was as high as 80, assuming I can beleive the answer. I knew though that the USA is one of them. Also Singapore, since it was big news when the co-founder of Facebook did it.
analog31|5 days ago
WD-42|5 days ago
Bender|5 days ago
reaperducer|5 days ago
If you read the article, you'd see that for some countries that is almost precisely what happens.
popularonion|5 days ago
novaRom|4 days ago
hsuduebc2|5 days ago
readthenotes1|5 days ago
SlightlyLeftPad|5 days ago
timbit42|4 days ago
socalgal2|5 days ago
znpy|5 days ago
giggert|5 days ago
[deleted]
anonnon|5 days ago
[deleted]
MadDemon|5 days ago
reaperducer|5 days ago
Translation: I didn't read this, so I don't know what it says and I don't know what I'm talking about, but I desperately need to post on the internet, so here's something I just made up…
WD-42|5 days ago
mindslight|5 days ago
[deleted]