Even better than talking someone out of money is to get them to pay you without even knowing they are paying. A landlord I rented from once did this with the rent, managing to raise rents with most tenants not noticing.
Here's how they did it. Rent was $550/month with a one year lease, which works out to $6600/year.
When the least expired, you had the option of going month to month, or signing another lease. Month to month would be $600/month ($7200/year). However, they said, if you'll sign another one year lease, they'll let you keep the old rate ($6600/year), which will be implemented by giving you one month free. That is, you'll pay $0 for January, then $600/month for the remaining 11 months of the year, bringing the total to $6600/year.
A year later, when it was time to renew again, they told people rent would probably be going up soon, but if they renewed now for another year, they could avoid the increase and just keep paying $600/month.
Since that is what people were already paying, most did not see this as a rent increase. Yet they would be paying $7200 for the year, as opposed to $6600 for the year before--a $600 increase--because this time there was no free month for signing the lease.
It also sounds vaguely similar to the thing you hear factory workers do.
Bob is paid weekly, on Thursday. Bob starts by being frugal. This means that instead of having to use his wages on Thursday he can push it back a day to Friday. He still gets paid on Thursday.
He keeps doing this - keeping 8 days between each time he takes his money out of the bank.
After 7 weeks Bob gets a double pay packet.
I know a few people who tried this, and I know a couple of people who managed to last for the 7 / 8 weeks needed. Most of them got more benefit from frugal spending and a bit of planning than from the double pay at the end, but that's a nice treat too.
> I was masterfully manipulated, and I have little choice but to admit that I received an unexpectedly expensive lesson in the art of selling.
How would you be sure it was that masterful? From your description it sounds pretty much like a standard sales pitch. It could just as well be that you're simply rationalizing being talked into spending $100 on something you didn't want to buy. You seem to be thinking "He was so good, he even managed to get me to buy this stuff", but the truth may unfortunately just as well be "Gee, I fall for this kind of stuff much more easily than I would have liked/thought".
Doing a postmortem of such a sales-pitch as a target yourself seems to be loaded with subjectivity problems.
I have to agree here. By the author's own admission, he does most of his shopping online - which tells me he lacks practice in dealing with salesmen.
I worked as a bartender/server at a corporate restaurant when I was in college. You would be surprised how easily people will do something if you just tell them. Me: Order a margarita. Customer: OK.
And not to get too judgmental, but this is especially true with the stereotypical internet dweller. For some reason Ive come to notice that people of this ilk are less likely to say no for fear of offending/not pleasing someone.
Your first mistake was to let an Israeli sell to you.
That's where you lost brother. For that matter, I'll expand that to Middle-Eastern. I have a lot of friends from Israel and some from other ME countries. A lot of them tend to be very good at selling. I never got to the bottom of it. Maybe it's something in the water? I don't know.
I've gone on sales calls with Israeli friends (yes, as an engineer I decided I needed sales training from the best when it came time to sell my own products). We used to play this game that we loosely referred to "Shut-up and sell something". The idea was to see how little you could say and still close a deal. In my early days I tended to talk too much. And, as an engineer, I'd get lost in long explorations of features and even stuff we were planning on doing. I'd loose sales right and left. Then came "shut-up and make a sale". It is amazing how sometimes you can say absolutely nothing. Zero. And make a bigger sale than when you start flapping your jaws. The art is in knowing when to speak and when no to.
Hey you! Yes you. The one reading this thinking that it is a pejorative comment. Stop it! It isn't. It's more of a compliment than anything else.
I think Turkey has the most of this type of sellers. Especially the towns that are on the sea and get a lot of tourists.
It usually goes like this:
1. Hey my friend, where are you from? — So that he can set an initial price for you. None of the items ever have prices on them because of this. If say you're from Russia or Germany and the like you'll get the big initial price, if you're from Serbia like me, you'll probably get a smile.
2. Let's say you are from Germany, and were looking at a shirt, he'll tell you €40. — You simply can't allow yourself to buy it at this price, neither is he expecting you to (although I'm sure that happens). At this point he just wants you to pile up the stuff you like from the store.
3. When you're done, he'll sit you down for "the deal". Now's the time to haggle, and you should have been thinking of ways to cut the price while you were picking up the clothes. He'll probably give you a small discount "for bulk" that you should dismiss at once, and aim for at least 30% off of everything (50% is standard somewhere, some parts is less), and don't be afraid to return some things you don't want to buy.
So yeah, if you want some schooling in direct sales, go to Turkey (Alanya is very nice) and go shopping. Be prepared to come back with many knock–off Armani shirts and sweaters.
I visited Istanbul earlier this year, and it amazed me how bargaining and selling was so ingrained in the culture. Every store, every restaurant, even the hotel... it's just a different way of dealing with customers.
And here in Canada/USA, some stores have sales people that don't want to disturb you. They sit quietly in their chair in the back of the store, don't dare approach you, and don't speak until spoken to. That's not sales, that's "question answerer".
Please elaborate on when to talk and when to remain silent. East med has been a commerce route for centuries, if not millenniums, is not strange that it is embedded on the culture.
As somebody who lived in Israel, I recognized it instantly. After you live for some time there, you get immunity to such kind of things, but on un-immunized person, especially of character susceptible to pressure, it may have strong effect.
I was coming here to post something along those lines. After having spent several weeks in Egypt, I came to realize that the guys who run the kiosks in American malls, who I used to consider pushy, are probably the amateurs who couldn't cut it back home.
We came across a Fair Trade shop in Luxor two weeks into our trip, where not only were there were price tags, but the shopkeeper just hung in the back until we approached them. It was such a relief, as I'd gotten sick of bargaining for absolutely. Everything.
Reading this and the subsequent comments, I have to ask: am I the only one immune to the this sort of thing? I get approached by these kiosk workers all the time while shopping, and I simply wave and keep walking (possibly reinforcing with a "No, thank you" if they follow me down the path, as they sometimes do). I know it's a high pressure tactic. I know they're selling something that no one actually needs. I know if I give them an inch of attention they'll try to take a mile. It's a well known sales tactic, so I'm puzzled why people continue to get sucked into it.
I'm actually kind of confused why this warrants a post-mortem given that I would hope that no one ever duplicates this sort of tactic in a legitimate business. Let the product sell itself, don't "become the customer's friend" in order to push it on them.
am I the only one immune to the this sort of thing?
I don't know, I feel that way, too. I've been through long sales pitches, mall workers, even TV commercials . . . and I'm pretty sure the emotions I feel are not the ones they intend me to feel.
When I hear friendly pleasantries or "This is a special deal just for you" or "I just marked down the price 50%" or "Super exclusive supreme top-of-the-line product" or whatever, I'm supposed to feel . . . I don't know, flattered? Excited by the opportunity? That's not what I feel. What I feel is more like, "Don't insult my intelligence, you jerk." And maybe a little, "Don't pressure me to make a decision with insufficient research. Jerk."
I don't know, I generally like to think the best of people, but every time I've interacted with a salesperson, I've spent the entire conversation with the forceful emotional impression that they were insulting me and trying to take advantage of me. And I never buy anything from them.
When you walk by 5 of these guys every day on your way to work you tend to develop a rather callous attitude towards all unsolicited sales. Like you said, give them an inch and they'll talk your ear off for 5 hours, progressing through their bag of tricks like how great the product is, on to guilt trips about how badly they need the sale, to the final stage of feigning annoyance that you wasted their time or that you are a rude person.
But with my parents who I think are quite "normal" and live in my small home town, the vendors and pan handlers can smell fresh meat a mile away. It's not that they're stupid or gullible. It's just that when someone approaches and starts talking - they give them their full attention. And as per small-town courtesy you wait for a conversation to wind-down - which will never happen with these guys. They will literally never let you walk away until either you buy something or you "rudely" remove yourself from the conversation. It takes them a little while to get into that "city" state of mind where you realize that the best approach is to not get yourself sucked into a conversation in the first place.
You probably aren't that immune either but the key is to shrug these people off right off the bat.
When you just wave the off and walk past you never enter the danger zone. Things get increasingly more difficult once you engage in conversation with them as they won't let you go unless you rudely quit and walk away, and most people don't want to do that. The logic goes that since you've already spent a while talking with them, spending your time and their time, why stop so suddenly and throw all that away unless you end up buying something to warrant the effort made. It's basically bullshit but that's how many people go about it: you either decline right from the start or end up "having to" buy something. It takes some strenght to break out of that pattern.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but a lot of these tactics are used in "legitimate" businesses. For example, free lessons (e.g. 20 Ways to Speed Up Your Wordpress Site!) and mailing lists are often used to gain the customer's trust before pitching a service or a product. Becoming the customer's friend is simply a way of gaining the customer's trust.
>am I the only one immune to the this sort of thing?
Thing is, techniques that work great on one type of person will repulse another, so it's perfectly normal for a nerd to be completely immune to a sales pitch targeted at a neurotypical. But that doesn't mean you can't be manipulated; it just requires different techniques. To believe otherwise is dangerous overconfidence.
>I'm actually kind of confused why this warrants a post-mortem given that I would hope that no one ever duplicates this sort of tactic in a legitimate business. Let the product sell itself, don't "become the customer's friend" in order to push it on them.
All co-location is sold this way. As are commercial real-estate leases... and most residential leases, for that matter. All of us, if we go into business, will have to buy products or services sold by those sorts of salesmen. Knowing a bit about how their manipulation works is the first step towards self-defense.
I mean, it's not usually unsolicited... but if you want to lease some co-lo? almost nobody except maybe some of the tiny nobodies list prices on the web page... and 90% of the time, those prices are not solid; they are significantly higher than the 'special for you' price.
If you want to lease bandwidth? same thing applies, only the difference between the first price you get and the 'special because you are my friend' price is larger. I'm paying 1/5 the 'list price' for my large Cogent pipe.
So... it should be obvious why you need to study this stuff. Well, obvious why I need to study this stuff; I blow through north of a hundred grand on co-lo, bandwidth, and other related fees every year; I'd bet money that I'm not within 20% of the lowest possible price, so yeah, it's worth quite a bit of effort to figure out how this bullshit works.
All that said, it is bullshit. I avoid it whenever possible. I build my own servers from parts, because you don't have to negotiate to get reasonable prices on parts, but you do have to negotiate to get reasonable prices on assembled servers. The negotiation effort is far greater than the assembly effort.
Really, I think this is one of the primary reasons "the cloud" seems so much easier to deal with than co-location. No negotiation, no dealing with the co-lo jacking up your rent every year. (Yeah, just like a commercial or residential real-estate lease, every time your lease is up, the rent goes up in proportion to how difficult the landlord thinks it is for you to move.)
I've tried putting 'real prices' on my website for things like bandwidth and co-lo (the bandwidth prices were really good, for the amounts I was offering. The co-lo prices were reasonable but not unheard of.) Almost no bites. I did get salesmen calling me up all over the place; for a 10% cut, they'd send me all kinds of customers.
So yeah... as far as I can tell? this is just how some goods and services are sold. As far as I can tell, the optimal move is usually to rearrange your life and your business so you buy as few of the products that require negotiation as possible; But eh, depending on your sector, well, this may be impossible. In that case? yeah, learning sales bullshit and negotiation is important, if nothing else, to defend yourself against others.
I mean, I've negotiated a fair number of co-lo deals. Probably more than your average person negotiates residential leases during their lifetime. But the person at the other side of the table? they are a professional. They do this all day, every day.
So yeah. Even now? I do sometimes come away finding that the professional has manipulated me into doing something stupid. For me? key is to not agree to anything in person; take it home, show it to a (more conservative... my problem is that I optimistically buy more for a lower unit cost and end up not using most of it.) friend, sleep on it, and then decide. I mean, I am in business and my conservative friends are not, I can't completely defer to them, but getting a perspective that is different from your own is super important, because sales manipulations that work on one type of person don't work on another.
I know I'm not completely immune, so I have one simple rule - never buy anything on the spot that costs over a certain margin. The margin depends on the kind of things - may be smaller for small things and larger for bigger ones, but usually somewhere around $50-$100. And that is regardless of any offers, discounts, special promotions going on just for the next 50 seconds, etc. I might be losing some deals on that, but I don't think so. If he was genuinely ready to go down 20% today to make a sale, he'd do the same tomorrow.
So if I see something offered that I need to buy and the price is attractive, I leave and wait for some time - again, depending on the sum in question it may be a day, maybe more. If after the wait the offer is still attractive - I take it. If after the pressure is off I discover the deal doesn't look as nice as it looked - I pass. If the salesman says "if you don't buy now, the deal is off" I say "it was nice talking to you, good bye". So far this rule worked quite well for me.
As for using it in business - it is used all the time. I've been subjected to it (to remove any doubt - in US, not Israel, and not by Israelis :) many times, and not only in the malls. It is being used because it works - you think people doing it do it for their own enjoyment? They do it because that's how they make the most money. Not my money, though :)
For those of us that don't get sucked into these easily, more than anything it is probably that we just don't engage the sales person in the first place. I never purchase anything being sold these ways, but I can't really say I have given the sales person enough of a chance to employ these methods on me.
I have an aversion to anyone who is pushing sales onto me like this. Even if they were trying to sell something I would be really interested in, the method would cause me to avoid it.
You have said that you know that the best tactic is to avoid these people, which presumably is through experience. So why do you say that you're "Confused" and "Puzzled" at why this article exists? It's a well known sales tactic as you say, but it's obviously not universally known, so instead of acting superior and declaring yourself "puzzled", let other people have the benefit of learning it too.
Because he got suckered and instead of blatantly admitting he acted like a smug idiot, he has to rationalize it as a good thing by saying "look, I learned something, and now so did you".
You don't have some unique immune ability. The OP said he approached the vendor first for some sales advice, and in the end the guy got him to buy his wares.
The one additional (and arguably most powerful) sales tactic you experienced was playing with most human's natural desire for reciprocation - the longer he keeps you at that booth, the more of his time you have consumed, and therefore the higher probability that you will actually buy something.
I know I've found myself buying things I don't need in the past because a sales person spent lots of time with me, and I thought "Well, I should reward them in some way for all this time they have given me!", when in reality, that's the whole point of them spending time with me in the first place :)
As a former resident of Israel I kinda know those people. They are there to do their 'hit' before settling back to 'normal' life. The brief they get is "sell". There are companies that specialise in getting young folk to the US and Europe to sell those product. They promise them the world and a silly salary. The reality is that the salary doesn't translate to the figures promised unless you actually sell like you life depends on it. So they do just that. The dead sea stuff is just one type of product, manufactured by nondescript factories and arguably not so 'dead sea'. There are others who go door to door selling 'made in china' oil paintings that they claim to be the artist of. Others sell gadgets in malls. Others sell whatever they sell. The techniques are similar and they are controlled by a few companies.
There are even ads where they recruit based on having a US tourist visa alone (i.e., work illegaly until caught). This got so worst that the US embassy created a short film warning young Israelis of that scam, and the airports in London will hold any young Israeli coming in on suspicion of being a mall-stall fodder. Sorry for the guy on loosing $100 worth of chemicals that cost the seller about $4 to procure (I know this because, alas, my brother from the same mother has dabbled in this in the past). You've been had buyer of cosmetics.
The best way to go about it, and a lesson to future cosmetic buyers as this poster, is that you buy if you initiate the purchase, not if it initiated upon you.
I took his advice and Googled "Dead Sea Cosmetics". Apparently one of the WikiLeaks diplomatic cables had details about a company exploiting young Israelis, to take tourist visas and sell these cosmetics in malls.
It goes deeper than that. As soon as I read "skin care products at the mall" I immediately thought, "I wonder if the sales person was from Israel". I honestly didn't think I would see that addressed.
Do you remember those Zoom Copters that used to be in every single mall across America?
Hah - years ago, my aunt was stopped in a mall by a young Israeli guy selling these products. She mentioned that she'd been to the Dead Sea on a trip to Jordan and seen them selling similar products for a fraction of the price.
The salesman, unfazed, asked her if she was perhaps mistaken and thinking of the 'Red Sea, because the Dead Sea is in in Israel[1]'.
Thankfully, my aunt taught history, so she knew her geography well enough to know that he was just trying to pull the wool over her eyes.
[1] Which is technically true, since it sits on the border. But I wouldn't tell a Canadian that they were mistaken, because 'Niagara Falls is in the US'.
I was approached by the same sellers in a mall. I got the exact same samples of "dead cells" cream. It was a lady the one that gave me the samples. Very convincing. If it wasn't because I was with my wife at the time, who happens to be a person that does not bend to that kind of selling techniques (I call it her super-power :P) I would've walked with $100 less, at least.
One bad thing about this selling technique, which might be effective in selling you stuff, is that right after walking out, you feel bad. You know you did not do the right choice and the probabilities of you walking again to buy more stuff from them or telling your friends how awesome these products are is so small, that they seem to aim to one-sell only. Maybe that's why they're so expensive: they know you're not going back for more. It's a cheap technique and it probably is not looking for anything long term... But in any case, you can always move to another mall or create a new crappy-good-looking product to scam more people.
If you want information from a salesperson about a product or service without getting into their "selling" mode. Just come up to them and say, right off the bat, "I'm not considering a purchase of this kind for at least 1/3/6 months, but I have a couple of questions about your product."
If it's a bad product or bad salesperson, they'll probably end the conversation quickly, because their whole premise is to catch you off guard and convince you to buy something that you never would if you had 30 seconds to search the internet for reviews.
If it's a good product and a good salesperson, they'll gladly answer your questions and give you a business card. Then you can verify their claims later, and you have a somewhat-trusted contact that you can go back to.
It's a quick way to filter, even if you know you may end up purchasing the product within a couple of days.
This tactic is also a way to quickly stop a potential email conversation with a recruiter, while still being able to have them as a connection. "I'm sorry but I'm definitely not changing jobs for at least 6 months, but thank you for reaching out to me," is enough to do this.
This is the difference between the two types of salespeople I've encountered when I worked in the auto dealer software industry. The first is the short-term salesman. He's concerned about finding individual sales, and probably moves from dealership to dealership looking for the best commission. The second is the long-term. They're the veterans who've been at the same dealer for 20 years and don't even have to try and sell anymore. They subsist on referrals and existing relationships, treating them well and giving them the actual best product they can sell while also giving the dealer what it needs. Neither is guaranteed to be more or less greedy than the next but the latter is a hell of a lot more likable and doesn't care about the short-term salesguy rat race.
People in the US don't know how to haggle, it's just not part of our culture, so you were done from the second you started talking to him. The first step is learning to walk away from something like this - something that may be nice to have, but that you don't really want. You should have given up when he talked you down to $100 for the lot. Seriously, you didn't need or even want the product, why buy it? There is a decent chance he would have come after you and dropped the price though -- that's the first sign you can start talking seriously about price, everything before that is pure profit for him. And if he didn't chase you down, you're not out anything, and can come by later and see if he'll take a lower offer. I've walked away from vendors like this not once but twice and gotten a price at a quarter of what was originally offered as the lowest possible price.
The opportunity to do this kind of bargaining just comes up so rarely, it's hard to get good at it unless you spend time in developing countries. The much harder skill is to be able to do this for something you really want, something you've already made up your mind to purchase. Which is a shame, since this particular skill does come into play all the time in the US, particularly when it comes to big purchases like cars or houses where bargaining is expected. We have a weird culture.
I'd definitely agree that America is not a real haggling culture for day-to-day shopping. But most of us are pretty used to pitchmen wanting our money.
This seems like to OP just wanted to be sold on something to observe sales techniques. Had he really never talked to a vendor before? Did he actually forget what he was doing and get caught up in the moment, or was this the outcome he was planning all along? Hard to say.
I had this happen at the mall that's a few blocks from Union Square in SF.
For me it was a guy who tried to sell me $800 of tooth whitening services and ultimately sold me two tubes of toothpaste for $20. Once he got me to sit in his chair and talk about myself he hung on tenaciously. It was clear he had authority to mark prices down to 25% of the first price he gave and he'd give you half of that off in cash and give you the other half by doubling the product on you.
I was shocked when I walked away then the next guy asked me if I knew about the dead sea salts and I told him "Yeah, some guy put them on my hand in the mall years ago and it felt great but then 15 minutes later my hands felt dried out and awful."
You might say the guy from White Science is a brilliant salesperson, but if you look at Yelp you'll see people are generally not happy with the products and services that they get there.
In my observation, people who believe they are not susceptible to advertising or sales pitches are actually more susceptible than they otherwise would be. If you don't acknowledge you can be influenced, you're less likely to notice when you ARE being influenced. And you don't have to be hit on the head by a sales tactic to be influenced either. It often comes in subtle ways.
I just walk off. If anyone follows me through the mall screaming at me (which has happened, at the very same mall listed here!) I immediately go complain to mall management..... who do nothing, because apparently a gimmick kiosk selling $2 bottles of goo for $100 pays them a lot of rent.
One mall I went to in semi-rural Ohio had it right -- the kiosks had little boxes taped on the floor around each kiosk, and the hucksters weren't allowed to leave their box. It was easy to go to a mall to shop, not to be yelled at like some kind of third-world bazaar.
With out getting too specific, there is a vulnerability the buyer can exploit. The sales man has spent ages with the buyer rolling out his well learned techniques. This is helped if the buyer uses up as much time as he can bare. Which means unless he makes a sale, he has totally wasted his time. Time is money.
So, just at the point where he has totalled up his oh so great deal for you, and just as you are about to pay for the items, stop. Turn to the sales man and offer a deal of your own.
Two things happen. You have just taken control back of the whole sales routine, which suddenly changes your position completely not least because it refreshes your own sense of control. And second, the sales man is totally set off balance and facing the loss of the sale and his time. You can give a whole load of his patter straight back. "Because you are such a great sales guy, I would hate for you to lose this sale", "This offer of mine is a one time offer, could go home and order this lot much cheaper on line", etc.
At that point I start by offering 25%, yes 25%, and seeing where he wants to go. My reasoning for the low percentage is that is sends out a message about how much I value the product, and that despite everything the sales man has said, it hasn't worked. But, I might buy at a value I feel is right for me.
Having done all that, the pressure is off you, and you are freed up to make a rational decision, and being back in control makes it much easier to say, "No, thanks, but I'll pass today."
At that point I start by offering 25%, yes 25%, and seeing where he wants to go
How is this any different than requesting a blowjob in the parking lot to every woman you encounter in the gym or grocery store? Occasionally your insulting offer will work. It will work a very small percentage of the time, and meanwhile, you gain a reputation as an annoying douchebag that will follow you around 100% of the time.
I'd rather just take or leave the deal at the asking price, or something reasonably close to it, and get on with my day.
While this may not be the case for all of the dead sea related skin care booths (though I know it accounts for a large chunk of them in my area) - these people often have major quotas to reach in exchange for the room & board and small pocket money they get in exchange. A lot of them are brought to the U.S. with the promise of a job lined up and when they get here they are in a small apartment with 5 or 6 others. Just a slight insight as to why they are often so aggressive in their sales pitches.
On a bit of a tangent, if anybody's ever wondered why innocent people would incriminate themselves under questioning by the police, bear in mind that the police have much, much more leverage at their disposal than a skin care product salesman.
That's an interesting story. There's a great book called spin selling that mentions some study where they tried to look at the effectiveness of closing tactics like the ones you saw.
They found that for reasonably inexpensive purchases (a $300 camera for example), the hard close can work quite well. But for more expensive, complex purchases, like million dollar software contracts, the hard sell is pretty much the worst thing you can do.
For more complex sells, it pays to uncover and explore the true expense associated with a problem and paint a picture of the user continuing with current product (their competitors put them out of business) vs your product (they put their competitors out of business).
Just don't break out the calculator, offer the one time only special deal, or do anything else from the school of 24 hour fitness gym membership sales training unless you want to get kicked out of your prospect's office.
Usually I'm immune to mall salespeople, but literally the exact same thing happened to me a couple years ago. Same products, same mall (SF Westfield), same tactics, Israeli salesperson. They've got the formula down to a science, apparently.
The only difference was the salesperson was a cute girl and I was single at the time...
I'd say the OP was a rather gullible customer. The salesman didn't even have to resort to the next level, which is when they try to make you feel guilty for taking up their time. Or try to make you feel like a cheapskate because you won't buy their product for your child, date, etc.
[+] [-] tzs|13 years ago|reply
Here's how they did it. Rent was $550/month with a one year lease, which works out to $6600/year.
When the least expired, you had the option of going month to month, or signing another lease. Month to month would be $600/month ($7200/year). However, they said, if you'll sign another one year lease, they'll let you keep the old rate ($6600/year), which will be implemented by giving you one month free. That is, you'll pay $0 for January, then $600/month for the remaining 11 months of the year, bringing the total to $6600/year.
A year later, when it was time to renew again, they told people rent would probably be going up soon, but if they renewed now for another year, they could avoid the increase and just keep paying $600/month.
Since that is what people were already paying, most did not see this as a rent increase. Yet they would be paying $7200 for the year, as opposed to $6600 for the year before--a $600 increase--because this time there was no free month for signing the lease.
[+] [-] DanBC|13 years ago|reply
It also sounds vaguely similar to the thing you hear factory workers do.
Bob is paid weekly, on Thursday. Bob starts by being frugal. This means that instead of having to use his wages on Thursday he can push it back a day to Friday. He still gets paid on Thursday.
He keeps doing this - keeping 8 days between each time he takes his money out of the bank.
After 7 weeks Bob gets a double pay packet.
I know a few people who tried this, and I know a couple of people who managed to last for the 7 / 8 weeks needed. Most of them got more benefit from frugal spending and a bit of planning than from the double pay at the end, but that's a nice treat too.
[+] [-] danger|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anonymouz|13 years ago|reply
How would you be sure it was that masterful? From your description it sounds pretty much like a standard sales pitch. It could just as well be that you're simply rationalizing being talked into spending $100 on something you didn't want to buy. You seem to be thinking "He was so good, he even managed to get me to buy this stuff", but the truth may unfortunately just as well be "Gee, I fall for this kind of stuff much more easily than I would have liked/thought".
Doing a postmortem of such a sales-pitch as a target yourself seems to be loaded with subjectivity problems.
[+] [-] gxs|13 years ago|reply
I worked as a bartender/server at a corporate restaurant when I was in college. You would be surprised how easily people will do something if you just tell them. Me: Order a margarita. Customer: OK.
And not to get too judgmental, but this is especially true with the stereotypical internet dweller. For some reason Ive come to notice that people of this ilk are less likely to say no for fear of offending/not pleasing someone.
[+] [-] robomartin|13 years ago|reply
That's where you lost brother. For that matter, I'll expand that to Middle-Eastern. I have a lot of friends from Israel and some from other ME countries. A lot of them tend to be very good at selling. I never got to the bottom of it. Maybe it's something in the water? I don't know.
I've gone on sales calls with Israeli friends (yes, as an engineer I decided I needed sales training from the best when it came time to sell my own products). We used to play this game that we loosely referred to "Shut-up and sell something". The idea was to see how little you could say and still close a deal. In my early days I tended to talk too much. And, as an engineer, I'd get lost in long explorations of features and even stuff we were planning on doing. I'd loose sales right and left. Then came "shut-up and make a sale". It is amazing how sometimes you can say absolutely nothing. Zero. And make a bigger sale than when you start flapping your jaws. The art is in knowing when to speak and when no to.
Hey you! Yes you. The one reading this thinking that it is a pejorative comment. Stop it! It isn't. It's more of a compliment than anything else.
[+] [-] headsclouds|13 years ago|reply
It usually goes like this:
1. Hey my friend, where are you from? — So that he can set an initial price for you. None of the items ever have prices on them because of this. If say you're from Russia or Germany and the like you'll get the big initial price, if you're from Serbia like me, you'll probably get a smile.
2. Let's say you are from Germany, and were looking at a shirt, he'll tell you €40. — You simply can't allow yourself to buy it at this price, neither is he expecting you to (although I'm sure that happens). At this point he just wants you to pile up the stuff you like from the store.
3. When you're done, he'll sit you down for "the deal". Now's the time to haggle, and you should have been thinking of ways to cut the price while you were picking up the clothes. He'll probably give you a small discount "for bulk" that you should dismiss at once, and aim for at least 30% off of everything (50% is standard somewhere, some parts is less), and don't be afraid to return some things you don't want to buy.
So yeah, if you want some schooling in direct sales, go to Turkey (Alanya is very nice) and go shopping. Be prepared to come back with many knock–off Armani shirts and sweaters.
[+] [-] unreal37|13 years ago|reply
And here in Canada/USA, some stores have sales people that don't want to disturb you. They sit quietly in their chair in the back of the store, don't dare approach you, and don't speak until spoken to. That's not sales, that's "question answerer".
Real sales has an active component.
[+] [-] thisone|13 years ago|reply
You get used to the techniques.
[+] [-] omegant|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smsm42|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] leviathant|13 years ago|reply
We came across a Fair Trade shop in Luxor two weeks into our trip, where not only were there were price tags, but the shopkeeper just hung in the back until we approached them. It was such a relief, as I'd gotten sick of bargaining for absolutely. Everything.
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] jeremymcanally|13 years ago|reply
I'm actually kind of confused why this warrants a post-mortem given that I would hope that no one ever duplicates this sort of tactic in a legitimate business. Let the product sell itself, don't "become the customer's friend" in order to push it on them.
[+] [-] Dove|13 years ago|reply
I don't know, I feel that way, too. I've been through long sales pitches, mall workers, even TV commercials . . . and I'm pretty sure the emotions I feel are not the ones they intend me to feel.
When I hear friendly pleasantries or "This is a special deal just for you" or "I just marked down the price 50%" or "Super exclusive supreme top-of-the-line product" or whatever, I'm supposed to feel . . . I don't know, flattered? Excited by the opportunity? That's not what I feel. What I feel is more like, "Don't insult my intelligence, you jerk." And maybe a little, "Don't pressure me to make a decision with insufficient research. Jerk."
I don't know, I generally like to think the best of people, but every time I've interacted with a salesperson, I've spent the entire conversation with the forceful emotional impression that they were insulting me and trying to take advantage of me. And I never buy anything from them.
[+] [-] jakejake|13 years ago|reply
But with my parents who I think are quite "normal" and live in my small home town, the vendors and pan handlers can smell fresh meat a mile away. It's not that they're stupid or gullible. It's just that when someone approaches and starts talking - they give them their full attention. And as per small-town courtesy you wait for a conversation to wind-down - which will never happen with these guys. They will literally never let you walk away until either you buy something or you "rudely" remove yourself from the conversation. It takes them a little while to get into that "city" state of mind where you realize that the best approach is to not get yourself sucked into a conversation in the first place.
[+] [-] yason|13 years ago|reply
When you just wave the off and walk past you never enter the danger zone. Things get increasingly more difficult once you engage in conversation with them as they won't let you go unless you rudely quit and walk away, and most people don't want to do that. The logic goes that since you've already spent a while talking with them, spending your time and their time, why stop so suddenly and throw all that away unless you end up buying something to warrant the effort made. It's basically bullshit but that's how many people go about it: you either decline right from the start or end up "having to" buy something. It takes some strenght to break out of that pattern.
[+] [-] namuorg|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lsc|13 years ago|reply
Thing is, techniques that work great on one type of person will repulse another, so it's perfectly normal for a nerd to be completely immune to a sales pitch targeted at a neurotypical. But that doesn't mean you can't be manipulated; it just requires different techniques. To believe otherwise is dangerous overconfidence.
>I'm actually kind of confused why this warrants a post-mortem given that I would hope that no one ever duplicates this sort of tactic in a legitimate business. Let the product sell itself, don't "become the customer's friend" in order to push it on them.
All co-location is sold this way. As are commercial real-estate leases... and most residential leases, for that matter. All of us, if we go into business, will have to buy products or services sold by those sorts of salesmen. Knowing a bit about how their manipulation works is the first step towards self-defense.
I mean, it's not usually unsolicited... but if you want to lease some co-lo? almost nobody except maybe some of the tiny nobodies list prices on the web page... and 90% of the time, those prices are not solid; they are significantly higher than the 'special for you' price.
If you want to lease bandwidth? same thing applies, only the difference between the first price you get and the 'special because you are my friend' price is larger. I'm paying 1/5 the 'list price' for my large Cogent pipe.
So... it should be obvious why you need to study this stuff. Well, obvious why I need to study this stuff; I blow through north of a hundred grand on co-lo, bandwidth, and other related fees every year; I'd bet money that I'm not within 20% of the lowest possible price, so yeah, it's worth quite a bit of effort to figure out how this bullshit works.
All that said, it is bullshit. I avoid it whenever possible. I build my own servers from parts, because you don't have to negotiate to get reasonable prices on parts, but you do have to negotiate to get reasonable prices on assembled servers. The negotiation effort is far greater than the assembly effort.
Really, I think this is one of the primary reasons "the cloud" seems so much easier to deal with than co-location. No negotiation, no dealing with the co-lo jacking up your rent every year. (Yeah, just like a commercial or residential real-estate lease, every time your lease is up, the rent goes up in proportion to how difficult the landlord thinks it is for you to move.)
I've tried putting 'real prices' on my website for things like bandwidth and co-lo (the bandwidth prices were really good, for the amounts I was offering. The co-lo prices were reasonable but not unheard of.) Almost no bites. I did get salesmen calling me up all over the place; for a 10% cut, they'd send me all kinds of customers.
So yeah... as far as I can tell? this is just how some goods and services are sold. As far as I can tell, the optimal move is usually to rearrange your life and your business so you buy as few of the products that require negotiation as possible; But eh, depending on your sector, well, this may be impossible. In that case? yeah, learning sales bullshit and negotiation is important, if nothing else, to defend yourself against others.
I mean, I've negotiated a fair number of co-lo deals. Probably more than your average person negotiates residential leases during their lifetime. But the person at the other side of the table? they are a professional. They do this all day, every day.
So yeah. Even now? I do sometimes come away finding that the professional has manipulated me into doing something stupid. For me? key is to not agree to anything in person; take it home, show it to a (more conservative... my problem is that I optimistically buy more for a lower unit cost and end up not using most of it.) friend, sleep on it, and then decide. I mean, I am in business and my conservative friends are not, I can't completely defer to them, but getting a perspective that is different from your own is super important, because sales manipulations that work on one type of person don't work on another.
[+] [-] smsm42|13 years ago|reply
So if I see something offered that I need to buy and the price is attractive, I leave and wait for some time - again, depending on the sum in question it may be a day, maybe more. If after the wait the offer is still attractive - I take it. If after the pressure is off I discover the deal doesn't look as nice as it looked - I pass. If the salesman says "if you don't buy now, the deal is off" I say "it was nice talking to you, good bye". So far this rule worked quite well for me.
As for using it in business - it is used all the time. I've been subjected to it (to remove any doubt - in US, not Israel, and not by Israelis :) many times, and not only in the malls. It is being used because it works - you think people doing it do it for their own enjoyment? They do it because that's how they make the most money. Not my money, though :)
[+] [-] 3825|13 years ago|reply
Every single smartphone maker in the world is listening
[+] [-] robryan|13 years ago|reply
I have an aversion to anyone who is pushing sales onto me like this. Even if they were trying to sell something I would be really interested in, the method would cause me to avoid it.
[+] [-] ivix|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bigiain|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unconed|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Noxchi|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kitcar|13 years ago|reply
I know I've found myself buying things I don't need in the past because a sales person spent lots of time with me, and I thought "Well, I should reward them in some way for all this time they have given me!", when in reality, that's the whole point of them spending time with me in the first place :)
[+] [-] harel|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] axusgrad|13 years ago|reply
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5519017/WikiLeaks-delves-int...
[+] [-] s_henry_paulson|13 years ago|reply
Do you remember those Zoom Copters that used to be in every single mall across America?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJyCAZGRpf8
[+] [-] chimeracoder|13 years ago|reply
The salesman, unfazed, asked her if she was perhaps mistaken and thinking of the 'Red Sea, because the Dead Sea is in in Israel[1]'.
Thankfully, my aunt taught history, so she knew her geography well enough to know that he was just trying to pull the wool over her eyes.
[1] Which is technically true, since it sits on the border. But I wouldn't tell a Canadian that they were mistaken, because 'Niagara Falls is in the US'.
[+] [-] funkaster|13 years ago|reply
One bad thing about this selling technique, which might be effective in selling you stuff, is that right after walking out, you feel bad. You know you did not do the right choice and the probabilities of you walking again to buy more stuff from them or telling your friends how awesome these products are is so small, that they seem to aim to one-sell only. Maybe that's why they're so expensive: they know you're not going back for more. It's a cheap technique and it probably is not looking for anything long term... But in any case, you can always move to another mall or create a new crappy-good-looking product to scam more people.
[+] [-] ericdykstra|13 years ago|reply
If it's a bad product or bad salesperson, they'll probably end the conversation quickly, because their whole premise is to catch you off guard and convince you to buy something that you never would if you had 30 seconds to search the internet for reviews.
If it's a good product and a good salesperson, they'll gladly answer your questions and give you a business card. Then you can verify their claims later, and you have a somewhat-trusted contact that you can go back to.
It's a quick way to filter, even if you know you may end up purchasing the product within a couple of days.
This tactic is also a way to quickly stop a potential email conversation with a recruiter, while still being able to have them as a connection. "I'm sorry but I'm definitely not changing jobs for at least 6 months, but thank you for reaching out to me," is enough to do this.
[+] [-] lysol|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zevyoura|13 years ago|reply
Why do you want random recruiters as connections? This not sarcastic; it's a sincere question.
[+] [-] flatline|13 years ago|reply
The opportunity to do this kind of bargaining just comes up so rarely, it's hard to get good at it unless you spend time in developing countries. The much harder skill is to be able to do this for something you really want, something you've already made up your mind to purchase. Which is a shame, since this particular skill does come into play all the time in the US, particularly when it comes to big purchases like cars or houses where bargaining is expected. We have a weird culture.
[+] [-] jakejake|13 years ago|reply
This seems like to OP just wanted to be sold on something to observe sales techniques. Had he really never talked to a vendor before? Did he actually forget what he was doing and get caught up in the moment, or was this the outcome he was planning all along? Hard to say.
[+] [-] PaulHoule|13 years ago|reply
For me it was a guy who tried to sell me $800 of tooth whitening services and ultimately sold me two tubes of toothpaste for $20. Once he got me to sit in his chair and talk about myself he hung on tenaciously. It was clear he had authority to mark prices down to 25% of the first price he gave and he'd give you half of that off in cash and give you the other half by doubling the product on you.
I was shocked when I walked away then the next guy asked me if I knew about the dead sea salts and I told him "Yeah, some guy put them on my hand in the mall years ago and it felt great but then 15 minutes later my hands felt dried out and awful."
You might say the guy from White Science is a brilliant salesperson, but if you look at Yelp you'll see people are generally not happy with the products and services that they get there.
[+] [-] Mystitat|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] intellegacy|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thisone|13 years ago|reply
I burst out laughing and asked the salesman, in no uncertain terms, if he would like to borrow my tape measure.
[+] [-] gergles|13 years ago|reply
One mall I went to in semi-rural Ohio had it right -- the kiosks had little boxes taped on the floor around each kiosk, and the hucksters weren't allowed to leave their box. It was easy to go to a mall to shop, not to be yelled at like some kind of third-world bazaar.
[+] [-] alan_cx|13 years ago|reply
So, just at the point where he has totalled up his oh so great deal for you, and just as you are about to pay for the items, stop. Turn to the sales man and offer a deal of your own.
Two things happen. You have just taken control back of the whole sales routine, which suddenly changes your position completely not least because it refreshes your own sense of control. And second, the sales man is totally set off balance and facing the loss of the sale and his time. You can give a whole load of his patter straight back. "Because you are such a great sales guy, I would hate for you to lose this sale", "This offer of mine is a one time offer, could go home and order this lot much cheaper on line", etc.
At that point I start by offering 25%, yes 25%, and seeing where he wants to go. My reasoning for the low percentage is that is sends out a message about how much I value the product, and that despite everything the sales man has said, it hasn't worked. But, I might buy at a value I feel is right for me.
Having done all that, the pressure is off you, and you are freed up to make a rational decision, and being back in control makes it much easier to say, "No, thanks, but I'll pass today."
[+] [-] ZoFreX|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CamperBob2|13 years ago|reply
How is this any different than requesting a blowjob in the parking lot to every woman you encounter in the gym or grocery store? Occasionally your insulting offer will work. It will work a very small percentage of the time, and meanwhile, you gain a reputation as an annoying douchebag that will follow you around 100% of the time.
I'd rather just take or leave the deal at the asking price, or something reasonably close to it, and get on with my day.
[+] [-] elliottcarlson|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Joeboy|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dave_sullivan|13 years ago|reply
They found that for reasonably inexpensive purchases (a $300 camera for example), the hard close can work quite well. But for more expensive, complex purchases, like million dollar software contracts, the hard sell is pretty much the worst thing you can do.
For more complex sells, it pays to uncover and explore the true expense associated with a problem and paint a picture of the user continuing with current product (their competitors put them out of business) vs your product (they put their competitors out of business).
Just don't break out the calculator, offer the one time only special deal, or do anything else from the school of 24 hour fitness gym membership sales training unless you want to get kicked out of your prospect's office.
[+] [-] tlrobinson|13 years ago|reply
The only difference was the salesperson was a cute girl and I was single at the time...
[+] [-] jakejake|13 years ago|reply