(Disclosure: I work for Google, but not in anything to do with maps. These opinions are my own.)
I've been to this national park before. It's a beautiful place, but not one you want to get stuck in unprepared. The temperature estimates given by the police are accurate. It gets damn hot out there. The roads are gravel at best, and often just packed dirt or sand. You can very easily get bogged, if you don't know what you are doing. I got to a point where the road became unsuitable for my car, and I had to drive backwards for nearly 100 metres to get out as there was nowhere to turn. I would be concerned for inexperienced drivers with two-wheel-drive vehicles.
Map data is serious business, and this particular case is an egregious error.
The thing I really don't understand is this seems like such a simple thing to test! Search for X in our data set vs. competitor data set: flag for review if we are not within 1km radius. Don't release until the number and scope of flags hasn't been reduced to an acceptable margin of error (don't even have to test the full data set, just need a good enough statistician to help you figure out how bad your overall data is based on your sample tested data).
I've been to a lot of similar places in Australia, though I'm not sure about this one.
The thing I don't get is how/why people keep going until they get stuck. Is there not a point where you think 'this doesn't look like the road to Mildura anymore' ?
Places like that national park should only be entered in a 4x4 and you need to be carrying a water supply, spare fuel and various other bits of equipment.
All of which is true, but it leaves me wondering if Vic Police have informed Apple - seems like a far more effective way to save lives than issuing a statement that will be read by pretty much no-one...
I mean as an absolute first step, they should as a minimum report the problem by using the -in-app error notification system...
Every time I turn my Garmin GPS it warns me that maps might not be correct, so it's not just Apple.
That said, Apple should have written a big fat check to a company with much better data. (I still think Apple needed their own mapping and apparently maps improve as more users use them.)
I think I can explain this one - if I'm right, Apple already has the correct data, but is using it incorrectly.
One of the Apple Maps data sources is GeoNames (geonames.org), a free data source available under a Creative Commons Attribution license and also used with the search on OpenStreetMap. If you search for Mildura at OpenStreetMap (openstreetmap.org) you'll get the correct location of the town, but if you scroll down the GeoNames list you'll also be offered "Mildura Shire" as a search option. Click on that, and the pointer moves to a location similar to the Apple Maps screenshot, about 70km away from the actual town. It seems that's the location that Apple's search has chosen to prioritize, over the actual town.
Mildura Shire is listed in GeoNames as a "second-order administrative division", so it's probably similar to the middle of a county or council area.
This isn't a problem with datasets or incorrect data, it's a problem with how Apple is searching & prioritizing the correct data they already have. Choosing the "town" instead of the "second-order administrative division" would be appropriate here.
For what it's worth, GeoNames already prioritizes the town of Mildura correctly in their search engine.
Recently drove a 4,500 km trip in Australia, including near Mildura. We relied on two iPhones, one with Google Maps and one with Apple's newer version. For the most part, we relied on Google's maps and they never failed. Occasionally, we switched to iOS 6 and had a few different problems including roads simply not existing. After a while, we'd watch the iOS 6 directions just for a laugh.
Some of the stretches further East of Mildura run 100-200km without petrol stations and supplies. A number of the national parks in those areas are unmanned and irregularly visited, and there can be long periods even on sealed roads where you might not sight another car in an hour of driving. For one stretch (in and out of Mungo National Park), we stocked up on a lot of extra water as a precaution and notified family of our plans. Having an infant with us, I was very conscious of how quickly the temperature can rise once the air-con is off.
Can easily see how people might blindly follow maps/GPS and end up caught out. Especially when you're relying on cached phone maps data if your connection drops, as it does frequently out there.
Was driving in the outback with some mates, and got a flat tire. We started to repair it, and a road train went by, and actually stopped about a 1/2 mile up the road. The guy came jogging back to make sure we were ok. That is when we realised we were in the middle of nowhere, and should be more careful.
I never rely on a phone whilst traveling (driving, cycling, hiking). When driving I mostly use built in car GPS or take a secondary dash mount GPS for longer journeys.
When on feet I use one primary eTrex with maps, and always have a cheap secondary hand held GPS without the maps. Plus a paper map. And a set of extra AA batteries.
Google search, maps and other good things you have on a smartphone are nice, but it's way too unreliable to my taste. Battery life is crap, and without a connection the phone is pretty useless, unless you use a mapping app that can download map data. In which case I'd rather use a dedicated mapping device.
EDIT: Obviously all the equipment can't replace common sense. If you see you can't go any further - don't. Even if all your electronic devices tell you otherwise.
Rangers are frustrated by having defunct roads or paths in GPS navigation systems as roads and having no way to get them removed.
I was traveling in Death Valley recently, and the span of "unpaved road" ran from "better than my driveway" to "I could try, but there is a 50-50 chance this rented jeep[1] isn't coming back."
EOM
[1] If you pass through, spend a day, rent a jeep. Don't do that to your own tires. The rental guy will tell you where to go to see the things you want to see.
Also, dear god, put a couple cases of bottled water in your car. I do that even when driving around the Bay Area (if nothing else, $0.10/bottle water vs. $1.50/bottle water at the gas station is a win), but it was weird being in SW NV seeing people with absolutely no preparations in their car.
I know the rental guy, he will most likely direct you towards things that he feels are safe for you to reach. In the last two years, he has had people more familiar with the the back country and renting the jeeps for multiple days. It took a little getting used to for him -- there is a risk involved. We spent most of a week in areas where you do not see any people.
In Death Valley, with elevations below sea level, a little bit of rain can cause standing water on roads where people don't expect it. Heck, Inyo County throws up "road closed" signs just based on the amount of rain not based on road conditions. Park rangers, county road crews, etc. in remote areas need to cater to those that really don't think about what they are getting themselves into.
I sort of had this problem around the Great Salt Lake; my TomTom app gave me directions using unpaved dirt roads that were actually closed. At least there were closed, with gates, only 10 minutes into the bad route.
I think that's a bit of hyperbole: people relying 100% on a GPS/map/whatever when they should have used their heads a bit more is what got the boy in the article killed. Doesn't look safe? You're not prepared? Turn around! Don't go into places like that without a full tank of gas, plenty of water, some food, and if it's cold out, some sleeping bags/blankets.
-- You should never blindly follow consumer-level GPS. Full stop.
Especially in remote areas/national parks/widerness areas. Hate to say this is "common sense", but really it should be. It really has nothing to do with Apple, the iPhone, or iOS. Its quite the opposite, there are errors on all sorts of digitized maps. Most people are not aware or the vintage of the underlying mapping data (pre-digitization) and the variances of map-set data even amonst variant databases of "real maps".
No "real map" would have this error because of the human element: you wouldn't plot a town where there isn't one, particularly if you were also responsible for plotting the roads of the town.
This is a data processing problem. Someone's algorithm screwed up and they didn't bother to have people sanity check the results.
You might be right about that, but plenty of people are still going to follow the directions from these devices no matter what. That appears to be the intended purpose of the devices, too. Therefore Apple, Google, Nokia need to be responsive in addressing any issues like this.
Interestingly enough, today I was having a conversation about whether or not Maps had made any real improvements. You know, the kind that might compel one to finally upgrade to iOS6 or even consider upgrading to an iPhone 5. I asked a few people and nearly all of them expressed concern about being able to trust Maps. News like this doesn't make one feel better at all.
Frankly, I don't understand Apple's decision in the context of the idea of being customer-focused. In other words, if you, as an organization, make decisions for the benefit of your customers --or, at the very least not to their detriment-- how can you justify pushing out Maps and not keeping Google Maps on there?
OK, I get it. It would have cost more. A lot more. Fine. That's your problem. Pay Google for another five years exactly because you care about your customers. At the same time, put out your own Maps app and --funny enough-- compete on the merits of the app, not the hype.
If in five years you can't turn Maps into an app that people will choose over Google Maps, then, well, why are you in the mapping business in the first place?
Agreed. It's especially egregious because this functionality can potentially endanger the lives of customers while opening up liability suits (not a lawyer, just guessing).
Anyone know how much it would've cost to keep google maps?
The only way for Maps to get better is for people to report errors. If they release it alongside Google's version and no one uses it, no one will report errors, so it would never get better, and so on.
Just two years ago I had Google Maps send me a few miles in the wrong direction and plant me in the middle of an unfinished housing development when I wanted to go to a shopping mall. It was a mistake, I reported it, and it was eventually fixed. It's not as bad as getting stranded in the middle of a national park, but
a) It should be obvious that the middle of a national park isn't where a town is supposed to be, and
b) If it's not obvious because you are a tourist, maybe you shouldn't be blindly trusting your Maps app and only having enough gas to make it to town?
Has there been a credible source that the decision to get rid of Google Maps has in fact been made by Apple?
I always thought it had been Google's decision, but I never found a source confirming either.
The map failure is just another example of where apple's design principle cannot be blindly applied to every product. Apple's top-down approach on software design is expected to fail on Maps. Maps put hard requirement on data, bottom data, nothing to do with your leader's vision. Apple's way out of this is not to engage user input to add missing data or correct data errors --OSM tried that for years, the most accurate data still comes from semi-professional survey-er.
Look at other companies that does map, google map started out using Tele Atlas, NavTeq serves yahoo, bing and mapquest. Let's face it, spatial data cost money to collect and even more costly to update/maintain. Nevteq and Tele Atlas are gigantic companies for serving basic spatial data for a reason.
I guess apple didn't do sufficient data QA before saying, "hell yeah we are going with OSM where every big player is going with commercial data."
Without a solid baseline data, any fancy pants software development would just evaporate in air.
I have to say though, the GUI for apple map and functionality has very high usability. Apple just need to adapt a different mindset when dealing with data-dependent applications.
(disclaimer: I am a PhD student in Geography with CS background, did my share of processing spatial data for the last 8 years)
> I guess apple didn't do sufficient data QA before saying
Do you have this on good authority? (seeing your disclaimer and all) Because the way I understood it, they have all the data from TomTom and that seems to work fine - so it seems the problem is definitely not the data but what they are doing with it...? In this case some people in here stated it is an issue with search priorities, the phone suggests a different destination with a very similar name.
As a former Victorian now living in the US, I think it's apt to point out that 46 degrees Celsius is 114.8 degrees Fahrenheit and 70 kilometers is 43.495 miles.
Unless you really think the police were being precise to within a meter (Google says .001 mile =~ 1.6 meters), it's "about 115F" and "about 40 miles", respectively. (Got a bit unlucky on the miles, I'd also consider "about 45".)
I heard similar stories about Google Maps a few years ago, people getting stuck in US desert/parks because the GPS is incorrect (and also reception wasn't good back then, but that might have improved by now maybe).
At least this story is hitting the HN front page. Because the park rangers were hitting Google's traditionally deaf customer service ears (which must have been super-frustrating because people had already died and/or gotten into life-threatening situations).
I lost the link to that article, sorry. If I happen upon it, I'll post it here.
On the one hand I suppose it's people's own fault for venturing into dangerous terrain unprepared. But on the other hand, what's the use of having GPS Maps when you don't know when it's trustworthy or not? Great effort by OpenStreetMap (read below) of cross-checking their own maps for consistency with competitor maps, is at least a step in the right direction.
I had to go to the main emergency room in Oslo last week. iOS6 couldn't find it, or even the correct street. Looking at the map in detail later, it didn't even have a building at the correct location. I was furious.
I'm intrigued that the police let this happen five times, and then put out a press release. After the second time in two weeks, I would have put up a sign: "This is not the road to Mildura. Go back and turn left at the highway."
So, no, it's not good that apple's map data is inaccurate. But the title might be misleading.
The bottom line is if you're driving into a wilderness area like a national park, you should not be depending on your cell phone for your own safety. One of the first things they tell you if you read the pamphlet outside of a hiking area is: do not depend on you cell phone.
So sure, the map data is inaccurate. The more dangerous thing about this is that your battery has a finite lifespan. Also your signal is not guaranteed.
You need to bring water, you need to bring supplies. You need to bring warm clothing.
It is quite common for tourists to get into trouble here in Australia due to the differences in climate etc too.
FYI, when you travel make sure to bring extra clothes, water and food. Australia is a massive land mass and it is hard to fathom for people form a lot of countries that it can be a very harsh place for the unprepared.
It looks like this issue was caused by Apple mistakenly marking the centre of Local Government Areas as 'cities', in Australia at least. See example at http://imgur.com/qlciM for an example from Perth; Cambridge and Vincent aren't suburbs, and the others are in the wrong spot (Joondalup CBD is on the wrong side of the freeway)
A more glaring issue with Apple's map of Perth to my mind is that Fremantle Harbour has been completely filled in. See the bottom left of this Google map for comparison: http://i.imgur.com/GsmxQ.jpg
I live in Australia, and while I am not a fan of Apple or their products,I have to say that I'm surprised anyone in their right mind would go bush with just one map. Electronic or paper, maps have errors. Don't bet your life otherwise.
Google Maps on my iPhone has tried to send me down roads buried in several feet of snow (no winter maintenance road) before. Switching back to Google Maps doesn't make this sort of problem magically go away.
Can't help noticing how those who've never had problems with Apple Maps are usually people from the US. The iPhone is sold in other parts of the world too, you know.
Out of couriosity, I navigated the Kalahari with both a map and a TomTom. I was quite surprised to find that the paths were quite accurate - but shifted by roughly 5 kms. So I could use the maps, but not the navigation capabilities of the system at all.
[+] [-] enneff|13 years ago|reply
I've been to this national park before. It's a beautiful place, but not one you want to get stuck in unprepared. The temperature estimates given by the police are accurate. It gets damn hot out there. The roads are gravel at best, and often just packed dirt or sand. You can very easily get bogged, if you don't know what you are doing. I got to a point where the road became unsuitable for my car, and I had to drive backwards for nearly 100 metres to get out as there was nowhere to turn. I would be concerned for inexperienced drivers with two-wheel-drive vehicles.
Map data is serious business, and this particular case is an egregious error.
[+] [-] lusr|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Nursie|13 years ago|reply
The thing I don't get is how/why people keep going until they get stuck. Is there not a point where you think 'this doesn't look like the road to Mildura anymore' ?
Places like that national park should only be entered in a 4x4 and you need to be carrying a water supply, spare fuel and various other bits of equipment.
[+] [-] BryantD|13 years ago|reply
A couple of years ago, Google Maps placed Sunrise, FL in Sarasota, FL -- a 200 mile error, so somewhat larger than this one. But not as dangerous.
[+] [-] demallien|13 years ago|reply
I mean as an absolute first step, they should as a minimum report the problem by using the -in-app error notification system...
[+] [-] Alaskan005|13 years ago|reply
That said, Apple should have written a big fat check to a company with much better data. (I still think Apple needed their own mapping and apparently maps improve as more users use them.)
[+] [-] startupfounder|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SyneRyder|13 years ago|reply
One of the Apple Maps data sources is GeoNames (geonames.org), a free data source available under a Creative Commons Attribution license and also used with the search on OpenStreetMap. If you search for Mildura at OpenStreetMap (openstreetmap.org) you'll get the correct location of the town, but if you scroll down the GeoNames list you'll also be offered "Mildura Shire" as a search option. Click on that, and the pointer moves to a location similar to the Apple Maps screenshot, about 70km away from the actual town. It seems that's the location that Apple's search has chosen to prioritize, over the actual town.
Mildura Shire is listed in GeoNames as a "second-order administrative division", so it's probably similar to the middle of a county or council area.
This isn't a problem with datasets or incorrect data, it's a problem with how Apple is searching & prioritizing the correct data they already have. Choosing the "town" instead of the "second-order administrative division" would be appropriate here.
For what it's worth, GeoNames already prioritizes the town of Mildura correctly in their search engine.
[+] [-] prawn|13 years ago|reply
Some of the stretches further East of Mildura run 100-200km without petrol stations and supplies. A number of the national parks in those areas are unmanned and irregularly visited, and there can be long periods even on sealed roads where you might not sight another car in an hour of driving. For one stretch (in and out of Mungo National Park), we stocked up on a lot of extra water as a precaution and notified family of our plans. Having an infant with us, I was very conscious of how quickly the temperature can rise once the air-con is off.
Can easily see how people might blindly follow maps/GPS and end up caught out. Especially when you're relying on cached phone maps data if your connection drops, as it does frequently out there.
[+] [-] megablast|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rytis|13 years ago|reply
When on feet I use one primary eTrex with maps, and always have a cheap secondary hand held GPS without the maps. Plus a paper map. And a set of extra AA batteries.
Google search, maps and other good things you have on a smartphone are nice, but it's way too unreliable to my taste. Battery life is crap, and without a connection the phone is pretty useless, unless you use a mapping app that can download map data. In which case I'd rather use a dedicated mapping device.
EDIT: Obviously all the equipment can't replace common sense. If you see you can't go any further - don't. Even if all your electronic devices tell you otherwise.
[+] [-] jws|13 years ago|reply
Rangers are frustrated by having defunct roads or paths in GPS navigation systems as roads and having no way to get them removed.
I was traveling in Death Valley recently, and the span of "unpaved road" ran from "better than my driveway" to "I could try, but there is a 50-50 chance this rented jeep[1] isn't coming back."
EOM
[1] If you pass through, spend a day, rent a jeep. Don't do that to your own tires. The rental guy will tell you where to go to see the things you want to see.
[+] [-] rdl|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmspring|13 years ago|reply
In Death Valley, with elevations below sea level, a little bit of rain can cause standing water on roads where people don't expect it. Heck, Inyo County throws up "road closed" signs just based on the amount of rain not based on road conditions. Park rangers, county road crews, etc. in remote areas need to cater to those that really don't think about what they are getting themselves into.
[+] [-] fleitz|13 years ago|reply
Was planning on winging it but figured a recommendation or two might help.
I'm from BC and usually when I'm out in the back country I'll pick up a forest service map, are there similar maps for Death Valley?
[+] [-] afterburner|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] davidw|13 years ago|reply
I think that's a bit of hyperbole: people relying 100% on a GPS/map/whatever when they should have used their heads a bit more is what got the boy in the article killed. Doesn't look safe? You're not prepared? Turn around! Don't go into places like that without a full tank of gas, plenty of water, some food, and if it's cold out, some sleeping bags/blankets.
[+] [-] 001sky|13 years ago|reply
-- You should never blindly follow consumer-level GPS. Full stop.
Especially in remote areas/national parks/widerness areas. Hate to say this is "common sense", but really it should be. It really has nothing to do with Apple, the iPhone, or iOS. Its quite the opposite, there are errors on all sorts of digitized maps. Most people are not aware or the vintage of the underlying mapping data (pre-digitization) and the variances of map-set data even amonst variant databases of "real maps".
[+] [-] enneff|13 years ago|reply
This is a data processing problem. Someone's algorithm screwed up and they didn't bother to have people sanity check the results.
[+] [-] akent|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yycom|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jfoster|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robomartin|13 years ago|reply
Frankly, I don't understand Apple's decision in the context of the idea of being customer-focused. In other words, if you, as an organization, make decisions for the benefit of your customers --or, at the very least not to their detriment-- how can you justify pushing out Maps and not keeping Google Maps on there?
OK, I get it. It would have cost more. A lot more. Fine. That's your problem. Pay Google for another five years exactly because you care about your customers. At the same time, put out your own Maps app and --funny enough-- compete on the merits of the app, not the hype.
If in five years you can't turn Maps into an app that people will choose over Google Maps, then, well, why are you in the mapping business in the first place?
[+] [-] iaw|13 years ago|reply
Anyone know how much it would've cost to keep google maps?
[+] [-] ceol|13 years ago|reply
Just two years ago I had Google Maps send me a few miles in the wrong direction and plant me in the middle of an unfinished housing development when I wanted to go to a shopping mall. It was a mistake, I reported it, and it was eventually fixed. It's not as bad as getting stranded in the middle of a national park, but
a) It should be obvious that the middle of a national park isn't where a town is supposed to be, and
b) If it's not obvious because you are a tourist, maybe you shouldn't be blindly trusting your Maps app and only having enough gas to make it to town?
[+] [-] Xymak1y|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MetalMASK|13 years ago|reply
Look at other companies that does map, google map started out using Tele Atlas, NavTeq serves yahoo, bing and mapquest. Let's face it, spatial data cost money to collect and even more costly to update/maintain. Nevteq and Tele Atlas are gigantic companies for serving basic spatial data for a reason.
I guess apple didn't do sufficient data QA before saying, "hell yeah we are going with OSM where every big player is going with commercial data."
Without a solid baseline data, any fancy pants software development would just evaporate in air.
I have to say though, the GUI for apple map and functionality has very high usability. Apple just need to adapt a different mindset when dealing with data-dependent applications.
(disclaimer: I am a PhD student in Geography with CS background, did my share of processing spatial data for the last 8 years)
[+] [-] maratd|13 years ago|reply
Is Apple using OSM? I thought they were using TomTom?
[+] [-] jopt|13 years ago|reply
If we keep doing disclaimers wrong like this nobody will ever pay them any attention.
[+] [-] kahawe|13 years ago|reply
Do you have this on good authority? (seeing your disclaimer and all) Because the way I understood it, they have all the data from TomTom and that seems to work fine - so it seems the problem is definitely not the data but what they are doing with it...? In this case some people in here stated it is an issue with search priorities, the phone suggests a different destination with a very similar name.
[+] [-] jyap|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jerf|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tripzilch|13 years ago|reply
At least this story is hitting the HN front page. Because the park rangers were hitting Google's traditionally deaf customer service ears (which must have been super-frustrating because people had already died and/or gotten into life-threatening situations).
I lost the link to that article, sorry. If I happen upon it, I'll post it here.
On the one hand I suppose it's people's own fault for venturing into dangerous terrain unprepared. But on the other hand, what's the use of having GPS Maps when you don't know when it's trustworthy or not? Great effort by OpenStreetMap (read below) of cross-checking their own maps for consistency with competitor maps, is at least a step in the right direction.
[+] [-] jstclair|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kanamekun|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tallanvor|13 years ago|reply
I'm not saying you should have known where it is or anything like that, mind you.
[+] [-] thisrod|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] isleyaardvark|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] readme|13 years ago|reply
The bottom line is if you're driving into a wilderness area like a national park, you should not be depending on your cell phone for your own safety. One of the first things they tell you if you read the pamphlet outside of a hiking area is: do not depend on you cell phone.
So sure, the map data is inaccurate. The more dangerous thing about this is that your battery has a finite lifespan. Also your signal is not guaranteed.
You need to bring water, you need to bring supplies. You need to bring warm clothing.
Seriously.
[+] [-] djt|13 years ago|reply
FYI, when you travel make sure to bring extra clothes, water and food. Australia is a massive land mass and it is hard to fathom for people form a lot of countries that it can be a very harsh place for the unprepared.
http://blog.australian-native.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009...
Never have a single point of failure. A paper map or extra GPS at the bare minimum.
[+] [-] oohmeplums|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mambodog|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] duncan_bayne|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shimms|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jasonlingx|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] randomdata|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ra|13 years ago|reply
I've started carrying around my Nexus 7 in addition to my iphone just because of maps.
If iOS maps isn't seriously fixed by the time my contract is out, there's no way I'd by another iphone.
[+] [-] simonlang|13 years ago|reply
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/travel-news/taking-th...
[+] [-] mattquiros|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Argorak|13 years ago|reply