This is why I don't understand why so many hackers these days like to use apple products.
Apple is the antithesis of the hacker ideal. They're just as bad as Microsoft.
I mean, seriously. Have you ever been to a radioshack? Multi-charging devices are a common product. Yet apple will have none of it. It's clearly an anti-competitive measure aimed at making sure they're your only supplier.
Furthermore, apple's chargers suck. They deliberately have a weaker rubber sleeve around the end of laptop charger cables because it looks aesthetically nice. It's been proven that it's weaker than the conventional rubber joints on most laptop chargers, but they don't change it, because they value aesthetics over functionality.
This is why I don't understand why so many hackers these days like to use apple products.
Avoid if possible.
That's the thing. I can't. Because I want a computer I don't hate. There's nobody else who makes a machine I want to spend 8+ hours a day working and playing on.
There are some PC manufacturers where I can get some of what I want, but I've yet to see one where I can get all of it--I like Lenovo's build quality and aesthetic, for example, but their laptops are universally underspecced for what I want (if your only GPU is Intel, you are not getting my money) and I can't get a Retina display, which I now consider mandatory, anywhere else. And, while we're at it, if you're significantly heavier than my rMBP and don't provide at least competitive battery life, you're out too. I carry around enough crap as it is.
Worse, there are no operating systems other than OS X that fulfill my needs of a pleasant-to-use Unix/Linux system--certainly no Linux distribution comes close on the "pleasant-to-use" part; I'd rather use Windows 7 and Cygwin than any Linux desktop I've been subjected to in the last five years.
For me it's the same as it was with iOS--until Android 4.0 there was simply no worthy competition to iOS as far as I was concerned, but 4.x is fantastic and I switched over because it gave me the environment I don't hate plus the ability to mess around and customize it to my liking. But the first part is more important. If there was a Linux distribution with Apple levels of attention to detail and a modicum of taste--and that doesn't mean "looks like OS X", something different could be fine so long as it was designed for human beings instead of neckbeards and was uncompromising in its attention to detail--I'd probably be there. There isn't (and very well may never be), so I'm not.
You have to be joking, Microsoft is way more hacker friendly than Apple. Try to build your own OSX PC and you can't because Apple won't sell you a license, Apple started the whole walled garden game with the iOS.
Its because they make very high quality products. I changed over after being sick of my linux laptop never connecting to wifi, and the full-disk encryption on ubuntu never working. It took some getting used to, but Macs are really great products that are great to work with and write code with.
I don't think it's just aesthetics, they ask a lot of money for a new charger. And because they conveniently chose to use a patented charger thingy nobody else is allowed to make, you're going to pay them that bundle of money.
I'm convinced Apple designs their products to break quickly, especially components that are not covered by warranty (e.g. cables, chargers, earphones, etc). Those inexpensive components render the whole thing pretty much unusable, so you're forced to buy a replacement. It pisses me off.
Yet, if I were to buy a new laptop, I'd probably buy a MacBook. They're just so damn nice to use.
A big thing for me are the Macbook trackpads (and the standalone magic trackpads). They're just so awesome to use and no other manufacturer's comes close to Apple's.
People forget what a company that is friendly to hackers is like.. if indeed they ever knew in the first place. They see "Oh, it's a UNIX?" and think that is the end of the story, the best you could possibly ask for.
No, it's not as bad as Microsoft. The software is actually reasonably fine, it has its warts, especially when Apple gave their incessant mania to reinvent the wheel to run free, but OS X provides reasonably comfortable environment. If you stay out of iOS prison-like ecosystem, Apple's software solutions are reasonably hacker-friendly, I think.
The hardware is not that bad functionally too, in many aspects better than the competition, but there are much more things that suck. Primary of it being connections to outside world. There's still no proper docking solution for Macs, which is just shameful. Power connectors universally suck through all recent Apple hardware. Macbooks power sucks, iPod power sucks, iPhone power sucks. One can't help but think it's done deliberately. And on top of that they don't even agree to be charged from any USB, some just don't work, no idea why. I'd say "worse than Microsoft", but as Microsoft doesn't make any comparable hardware, Apple is left in a class of itself, without peer to be compared to.
Not for me. I want a nice, reliable machine with unix underneath and a sane GUI on top so I can just open it and hack away. My Mac gives me exactly that. Long gone are days when I used to look at Linux boot screen flying by and felt being a hacker because of that.
My macbook is nearing 3 years of age. The 'weaker' rubber sleeve in the charger is still good, same goes for four other Apple mobile chargers and headphones. Meanwhile another laptop I have has basically crumbled into pieces after 4 years. The screen is blotched, burnt, uneven, the keyboard is failing. It heats up like a toaster. Power brick had to be replaced a couple years ago.
I completely agree. You cannot put your own software on it and if you have one you're forced to take an extra set of cables when you vacation, and you need to baby those cables because adding protective sleeves to the ends "isn't the right design" but a new one is priced like they are made from gold.
I'm asking them the same question. I backed this as an android user looking to charge my power hungry devices. The iPhone compatibility was secondary for sure. I was willing to be patient while they figured out the lightning plug thing and am extremely disappointed that they're cancelling (and siphoning all the money through their startup) instead of releasing a product.
I'm a bit skeptical as well. The alternatives to giving up seem too obvious. Perhaps they didn't crunch the numbers right and were going to take a bath on the building them. Assuming its really just a problem they had with Apple, I don't see why they didn't provide a poll asking their customers what the their preference was (refund or design change). If nothing else, just bundle a lightning cable with the device.
Having a plain USB port or two would be handy anyways as there are still plenty of proprietary USB cables in the wild (GPSes, oddball electronics, older electronics, iPod shuffles).
They seem to have 2 female USB connectors already. They could have just changed the 2 30pin connectors to USB as well. Or have 4 USB + 2 Lightning..
Not sure if they're also supporting the extended dock connector functionality, and hence had to keep the 30pin connector.. but I agree that it seems like a press grab..
I agree. This seems like a problem with a trivial solution. My bet is that they decided that they wouldn't make enough money on the project to make it really worth their time. Blaming apple may be justified since it is a stupid policy, but I'd just as well have a system that just has four USB ports that I can plug whatever I like into.
I thought you can't charge apple devices with different usb devices? I have an apple tablet at my work and my pc does not charge it, I have to use my friend's mac.
Apple refuses to license any product which combines the Lightning connector with any older Apple connector.
Thus, buyers would have had to use the 30-pin to USB (or USB to Lightning connector, which is apparently not available in the US?). Either way, this was not the product that they Kickstarted. They decided to do the right thing, by returning the Kickstarter money. The company behind the Kickstart is contemplating whether to have a new kickstarter that would feature Apple connectivity by way of the usb-to-apple connectors (rather than through dedicated connectors like they have/had in the current version).
Just want to add some points to this thread as I am the inventor of POP.
For those who question our motives, your reasoning is fair but let me clarify some things.
We started Christie Street because of our our experiences with POP. We have been getting closer and closer to this decision since Apple announced Lightning and began its new rules on the adapter. While we were going back and forth and waiting to see if we could still build POP we realized that we did not have a good way of refunding to our customers. That is why on Christie Street we built a automated refund system for our inventors. So when we finally realized that POP just could not be made to what we promised, we wanted to use our platform to do the refunds as it would be easier for us to manage. Also it would allow us to test and tweak the system with real customers. We are all trying to build better companies/products and looking at a loss on POP this seemed like a good way to at least salvage something out of it while delivering a above average experience to our customers, I would call that a win-win.
Lots of people also seem to want POP even without Lightning and our upset that we did not poll our customers to see if a USB only version. But they are missing the point, we said in our campaign that we would support the iPhone 5 and at the time had no reason to believe that would be impossible. Why would we have thought that they would sell the new adapter any different then the old 30 pin?
We are not willing to compromise on the product or deliver something that was not as promised. If that brings skeptics, so be it but at the end of the day today I know that we are doing the right thing, not the easy thing but the right thing.
This would've been a better product if it just had a general-purpose retraction mechanism and let you bring your own cables. Apple may have been jerks, but they could've designed around it and made a better product instead of just throwing up their hands.
Wasn't there an EU ruling a few years ago saying that cell phones needed to start using micro-usb connectors? How is Apple getting around that, and still selling phones in the EU with proprietary plugs?
I really fail to see how opening the options to which plugs would be supported by just offering a USB Type-A adapter and providing some cables or having the user supply their own is "compromising" their product, unless it makes them too similar to products that are already on the market and have been for a while. I think this is more a failure of execution than it is Apple "killing" the project.
It is an issue of not being able to provide the product that people have given their money for.
If I were in their position, and my priority was operating ethically not successfully, I would refund all the money as they have done, then start again, pitching an only USB product.
Not quite convinced by the argument that 'Apple killed' it. IMHO it's always dangerous to go for one plug design; given how those plugs evolved over time (Think USB, micro USB, mini USB for Android, etc.). I quickly amassed in my drawer a plethora of unusable chargers. Only the Apple port had the longest lifetime across multiple devices. I would say, the kickstarter idea could use it as an opportunity to redesign an initial flaw of - an otherwise nice charging station ?
Regardless of this particular issue, can anybody explain Apple's stance on this? Why are they forbidding Lightning connectors on products alongside other types of connectors?
I'm speculating here. But other than the ChristieStreet motives people are throwing around, it might also have been prohibitively expensive to get a 26,000Mha battery into the device at that price point.
Sucks for them, but can't they make the thing a USB hub? BYOC. Who do I need their cable? USB-A ports are more practical. If I have an Android, why would I want iPhone chargers?
It's not a bad idea, I can see how it would be very useful for some people.
The thing I'm having a problem with is they must have seen this coming. Everyone knows Apple is a control freak. This was entirely foreseeable, and getting the requirements from Apple shouldn't have been due diligence. At a minimum, they should have planned for this possibility from the get-go.
I found this quote from the project's letter about the situation impressive:
"Providing full refunds means we will have to absorb a hit for both credit card (3%) and Kickstarter fees (5%) totaling over $11,000. Today we asked Kickstarter for the 5% fee they collected based on the circumstances, however regardless of their decision YOU WILL RECEIVE 100% OF YOUR MONEY BACK."
I'm sure plenty of people wouldn't have had a problem if they'd passed along the various fees. After all, Kickstarters are still speculative projects that can fail even after funding. Eating whatever fees they can't get refunded is seriously going above and beyond to make things right for their backers in a difficult situation.
What does it even mean for Apple to license this connector? Do they have a patent on it? It's just a fucking plug. Or are they just refusing to let these folks use some trademark to mark their product?
What does it even mean for Apple to license this connector?
Apple built DRM into it. You cannot work with it without Apple giving you the keys first.
Yes. Apple managed to sell the iFanboys a proprietary, DRMed USB-connector and make them believe they were getting something better than everyone else.
If that make Apple geniuses or Apple's customers retardec is your call.
I think most of the lightning cables actually have a chip inside, like thunderbolt. It may look like a simple cable, but there's some electronic stuff inside.
Apple has a program called MFi, usually you're supposed to get a MFi license if you make hardware for the ipod/iphone family. Since idapt doesn't list MFi anywhere, I'm guessing that they don't license it, and they aren't popular enough for Apple to sue yet. You don't have to ask Apple if you're just going to violate the license anyway... as long as you're small, Apple probably won't care. I think these guys tried to do the "right" thing.
I'm sure there are a few dozen chinese companies that violate all kinds of licenses that nobody really cares about. There's this chinese company that makes an iPhone knockoff that is actually called "iPhone" -- saw on the streets of Hong Kong. How do you think they do it?
1. Apple rejected the cable. To those who say "just go USB", it was
supposed to be a seamless product and that destroys aesthetics.
Image is everything in product design.
2. In parallel they were working on Christie Street, to solve the
issue of non-refunds on Kickstarter.
3. So why not turn something bad into something good? Get some press
for their new site, and also issue refunds for everyone. How else
would they issue refunds? And how does anyone lose in this situation?
If anything, this seems like a great and fair way to deal with the issues at hand.
Why not just continue the project with a few other connector types, and separately make an adapter for Apple's connector (authorized or otherwise), or recommend an existing something-to-Apple-connector cable?
So I'm looking at my monoprice external battery pack. It says specifically that it works for iPod,iPhone, and iPad. Is the problem that they built in the cables into the device instead of just outputting to a usb hub with specifically defined output rates?
I applaud Jamie and the POP team for going for it -- everyone who develops on a proprietary platform like Apple's (apps, hardware, whatever) faces this risk. It's a risk you have to take if you want a shot at success.
[+] [-] readme|13 years ago|reply
Apple is the antithesis of the hacker ideal. They're just as bad as Microsoft.
I mean, seriously. Have you ever been to a radioshack? Multi-charging devices are a common product. Yet apple will have none of it. It's clearly an anti-competitive measure aimed at making sure they're your only supplier.
Furthermore, apple's chargers suck. They deliberately have a weaker rubber sleeve around the end of laptop charger cables because it looks aesthetically nice. It's been proven that it's weaker than the conventional rubber joints on most laptop chargers, but they don't change it, because they value aesthetics over functionality.
Avoid if possible.
/me realizes he's using an ipod shuffle. oh well.
[+] [-] eropple|13 years ago|reply
Avoid if possible.
That's the thing. I can't. Because I want a computer I don't hate. There's nobody else who makes a machine I want to spend 8+ hours a day working and playing on.
There are some PC manufacturers where I can get some of what I want, but I've yet to see one where I can get all of it--I like Lenovo's build quality and aesthetic, for example, but their laptops are universally underspecced for what I want (if your only GPU is Intel, you are not getting my money) and I can't get a Retina display, which I now consider mandatory, anywhere else. And, while we're at it, if you're significantly heavier than my rMBP and don't provide at least competitive battery life, you're out too. I carry around enough crap as it is.
Worse, there are no operating systems other than OS X that fulfill my needs of a pleasant-to-use Unix/Linux system--certainly no Linux distribution comes close on the "pleasant-to-use" part; I'd rather use Windows 7 and Cygwin than any Linux desktop I've been subjected to in the last five years.
For me it's the same as it was with iOS--until Android 4.0 there was simply no worthy competition to iOS as far as I was concerned, but 4.x is fantastic and I switched over because it gave me the environment I don't hate plus the ability to mess around and customize it to my liking. But the first part is more important. If there was a Linux distribution with Apple levels of attention to detail and a modicum of taste--and that doesn't mean "looks like OS X", something different could be fine so long as it was designed for human beings instead of neckbeards and was uncompromising in its attention to detail--I'd probably be there. There isn't (and very well may never be), so I'm not.
[+] [-] joenathan|13 years ago|reply
You have to be joking, Microsoft is way more hacker friendly than Apple. Try to build your own OSX PC and you can't because Apple won't sell you a license, Apple started the whole walled garden game with the iOS.
[+] [-] pbiggar|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] waxjar|13 years ago|reply
I'm convinced Apple designs their products to break quickly, especially components that are not covered by warranty (e.g. cables, chargers, earphones, etc). Those inexpensive components render the whole thing pretty much unusable, so you're forced to buy a replacement. It pisses me off.
Yet, if I were to buy a new laptop, I'd probably buy a MacBook. They're just so damn nice to use.
[+] [-] Suan|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jlgreco|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smsm42|13 years ago|reply
The hardware is not that bad functionally too, in many aspects better than the competition, but there are much more things that suck. Primary of it being connections to outside world. There's still no proper docking solution for Macs, which is just shameful. Power connectors universally suck through all recent Apple hardware. Macbooks power sucks, iPod power sucks, iPhone power sucks. One can't help but think it's done deliberately. And on top of that they don't even agree to be charged from any USB, some just don't work, no idea why. I'd say "worse than Microsoft", but as Microsoft doesn't make any comparable hardware, Apple is left in a class of itself, without peer to be compared to.
[+] [-] rimantas|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saraid216|13 years ago|reply
That's it.
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cbs|13 years ago|reply
That's healthy, right?
[+] [-] ricardobeat|13 years ago|reply
So no, that's not a good argument to avoid Apple.
[+] [-] krickle|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ntaylor|13 years ago|reply
?
[+] [-] nostromo|13 years ago|reply
Edit: I'm skeptical about their motive. It seems they are using this as a press event to announce their KickStarter competitor ChristieStreet.
[+] [-] yellowbkpk|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Moto7451|13 years ago|reply
Having a plain USB port or two would be handy anyways as there are still plenty of proprietary USB cables in the wild (GPSes, oddball electronics, older electronics, iPod shuffles).
[+] [-] notthetup|13 years ago|reply
Not sure if they're also supporting the extended dock connector functionality, and hence had to keep the 30pin connector.. but I agree that it seems like a press grab..
[+] [-] d4m0|13 years ago|reply
Or am I missing something?
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] neltnerb|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anigbrowl|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kunil|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rprasad|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jsiminoff|13 years ago|reply
For those who question our motives, your reasoning is fair but let me clarify some things.
We started Christie Street because of our our experiences with POP. We have been getting closer and closer to this decision since Apple announced Lightning and began its new rules on the adapter. While we were going back and forth and waiting to see if we could still build POP we realized that we did not have a good way of refunding to our customers. That is why on Christie Street we built a automated refund system for our inventors. So when we finally realized that POP just could not be made to what we promised, we wanted to use our platform to do the refunds as it would be easier for us to manage. Also it would allow us to test and tweak the system with real customers. We are all trying to build better companies/products and looking at a loss on POP this seemed like a good way to at least salvage something out of it while delivering a above average experience to our customers, I would call that a win-win.
Lots of people also seem to want POP even without Lightning and our upset that we did not poll our customers to see if a USB only version. But they are missing the point, we said in our campaign that we would support the iPhone 5 and at the time had no reason to believe that would be impossible. Why would we have thought that they would sell the new adapter any different then the old 30 pin?
We are not willing to compromise on the product or deliver something that was not as promised. If that brings skeptics, so be it but at the end of the day today I know that we are doing the right thing, not the easy thing but the right thing.
[+] [-] mullingitover|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tibbon|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] publicfig|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jlgreco|13 years ago|reply
If I were in their position, and my priority was operating ethically not successfully, I would refund all the money as they have done, then start again, pitching an only USB product.
[+] [-] jasonlotito|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sftueni|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beggi|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrewfelix|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marcosdumay|13 years ago|reply
Please, those letters have meaning. You can't just replace them at will.
[+] [-] jinushaun|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tonetheman|13 years ago|reply
Daring Fireball will spin it so that Apple looks great or write a poetic post on how Lightening connectors will solve world hunger.
[+] [-] MBCook|13 years ago|reply
The thing I'm having a problem with is they must have seen this coming. Everyone knows Apple is a control freak. This was entirely foreseeable, and getting the requirements from Apple shouldn't have been due diligence. At a minimum, they should have planned for this possibility from the get-go.
[+] [-] fpgeek|13 years ago|reply
"Providing full refunds means we will have to absorb a hit for both credit card (3%) and Kickstarter fees (5%) totaling over $11,000. Today we asked Kickstarter for the 5% fee they collected based on the circumstances, however regardless of their decision YOU WILL RECEIVE 100% OF YOUR MONEY BACK."
I'm sure plenty of people wouldn't have had a problem if they'd passed along the various fees. After all, Kickstarters are still speculative projects that can fail even after funding. Eating whatever fees they can't get refunded is seriously going above and beyond to make things right for their backers in a difficult situation.
[+] [-] monochromatic|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] josteink|13 years ago|reply
Apple built DRM into it. You cannot work with it without Apple giving you the keys first.
Yes. Apple managed to sell the iFanboys a proprietary, DRMed USB-connector and make them believe they were getting something better than everyone else.
If that make Apple geniuses or Apple's customers retardec is your call.
[+] [-] veemjeem|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lytfyre|13 years ago|reply
[1] http://www.idaptweb.com/interchangeable_tips/charger/tp/ligh...
[+] [-] veemjeem|13 years ago|reply
I'm sure there are a few dozen chinese companies that violate all kinds of licenses that nobody really cares about. There's this chinese company that makes an iPhone knockoff that is actually called "iPhone" -- saw on the streets of Hong Kong. How do you think they do it?
[+] [-] mrchess|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JoshTriplett|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hamey|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ghostnappa|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gregcohn|13 years ago|reply
Sometimes it doesn't work out.
[+] [-] olgeni|13 years ago|reply
To think that in 2012 we still have to worry about things like this...