1) I don't want wireless at all. Too easily hacked without detection. Wired Ethernet is pretty cheap these days, and power line signaling is also available.
2) Like Twine, another HA startup, and all of the incumbents, it's too expensive.
So... A problem here - there's a lot of startup in the home automation space right now. I've been using MiCasaVerde for over a year now and it's awesome. Fully controllable and configurable via the MiOS GUI, or hack it to your heart's content via Lua scripts. The awesome thing is there's plenty of devices you can buy OTS right now whether Z-Wave (built-in) or Insteon (add-on USB adapter). What confuses me about what NinjaBlocks is trying to do is - they don't cater to anyone who already HAS home automation... Meaning: I'd buy it for $200, but they don't say what I can integrate with. I'm not going to spend another grand on switches, dimmers, motion detectors, locks, etc. if I don't know I can reuse my investment. That's a big part of why Spark is not a good option IMHO (http://www.sparkdevices.com/) - because they're using 802.11 WiFi (I don't want my home automation components on Wifi for a variety of reasons, but the first two are: 1) WiFi doesn't have a low-power advantage like ZigBee, Z-Wave, Insteon, etc. and 2) WiFi doesn't automagically create a mesh network for auto-routing and network extension).
Then you have a startup like SmartThings (http://smartthings.com/) that's just reinventing the wheel, creating a pretty iOS interface, and then trying to charge an outrageous amount for a monthly service - something MiCasaVerde doesn't do. So, at the end of the day would I use SmartThings? I'd like to - but I won't because I don't want to pay $120 a year for something I can run better in my own infrastructure. I don't want you selling my energy usage data or knowing if I'm home, with something like MiCasaVerde - I can choose not to use their cloud proxy to control my home.
If anyone is listening who's designing home automation and wants to cater to people who are looking at building a service to deploy these types of automation to the masses you need to do it right. Baby Boomers, at least the majority of them, will think all of the above are too complicated, so they're going to want someone to install and maintain this for them. There's a huge middleground that needs to be solved here and unless SmartThings and others are going to provide a service, that $10/month is not going to be justified.
Back to NinjaBlocks, please answer the following:
1) Monthly fee if I use your cloud proxy to hit the controller? If so - how much?
2) If #1 is true - is the API directly accessible on the controller - or are you locking me in?
3) Low power integration (i.e. ZigBee, Z-Wave, Insteon, etc.)? Answered my own Q: No... From (http://help.ninjablocks.com/customer/portal/articles/692139-...): "The original Ninja Block comes with a RF 433.92 Mhz (433) dongle and future Ninja Blocks will have this baked in. 433 is awesome because you will find it in all sorts of low-cost battery powered devices, its range is pretty good too. That said, its not all sunshine and lollipops - there are good reasons its considered "low-tech" - only one device can "talk" at a time, labelling is appalling, all protocols are proprietary. So not everything will work out of the box, but a lot of stuff will. " <<<<<----- Sorry, but this sucks, I'm out. You need to have a real and baked solution besides this 433Mhz junk that's not mesh, and has zero security baked in. There's no way I'll pay $200 for this with zero long term scalability or security in mind.
Again, another pretty solution that's just a toy. For my money I'd go with SmartThings - but for the long term I'm sticking with my MiCasaVerde (http://micasaverde.com) setup - cost feasible and fully in my control and no monthly costs. Until someone can come to the table with that I'm better off building my own interface.
(Ninja Marcus here)
Thanks for your feedback and questions!
1) Nope, no monthly fee.
2) We don't support this today. We think most of the value actually occurs in the cloud. Having said that all our APIs, hardware and code are open source, if you want to implement this you can.
3) The question of protocols (433Mhz or otherwise seems to miss the point of Ninja Blocks (& the Ninja Platform). We want to integrate with ALL connected hardware. We've been working on adding other protocols like ZigBee, Z-Wave, Insteon but they're not ready yet. I personally believe the future is IP.
We've included 433Mhz because it gets people started very cheaply!
Lots of good questions here, but I think the critical question is whether it's compatible with any of the other emerging standards like Z-Wave. Can someone from Ninja Blocks weigh in on this? There are a ton of Z-Wave components I'd love to mix in here.
This. This is the most valuable insight an entrepreneur looking to jump into home automation can derive directly from a customer. Thank you very much! I will keep these in mind when I design my HA systems. Cheers!
PayPal are bastards. I cancelled my account with them a few years ago and they've since refused to process any payment using my cc. This has caused me much frustration over time and I'm not alone
Not sure if people who use PayPay for credit card processing are aware of this. I'd love to buy this - and I attempted to - but can't.
It's also unfortunately one of the few ways to accept USD online in Australia, unless you hop through a ridiculous number of hoops with NAB (a bank)[1][2].
(BrainTree just launched in Australia[3], though. I'll be checking them out shortly for a project of my own. :) )
If you want something that works with what you have today your best bet is MiCasaVerde (I've mentioned them a lot in posts - have no tie to them, but am a mostly-satisifed customer at this point):
The Vera Lite is probably what you want... It can handle your existing sensors and do video (although the video isn't anything spectacular - I use a different system for that, but it does work).
The Vera has "app" concept - so from the controller you can install MiCasaVerde or community provided applications to do certain things (i.e something like a countdown timer for a scene, or an app to control an OTS yard watering system for example). But the best part is you can write your own apps (LUA). The system is entirely hackable (SSH access). So it's basically an open slate to most extent. But, the key thing is there's no monthly fee if you want to use their cloud service - you just need an account and controller (I'm guessing they collect stats on you events - but that's just a guess on my part).
The UI leaves something to be desired - and again, that's where startups like SmartThings will capitalize (pretty).
AFAICT Iris is a zigbee/zwave hub? We have experimented with a zigbee via a usb dongle - not production ready but its doable. We'd love to support Z-wave, but its a longer term feature with licensing issues and bandwidth pushing it down the backlog somewhat. Does Iris have an API that could be wrapped?
IP cams (especially the ultra cheap ones with pan and tilt) are way up on our list. It will be one of the first client modules off the shelf in the new year.
I am as convinced as ever that almost all home automation needs, realistically, are covered by a WiFi-enabled drop-in replacements for conventional wall switches, junction boxes and sockets. Everything else is nice, but you must get the basics right before moving on to the fluff. And nobody still has got it. I want to be able to switch off a floor lamp 5 feet away and turn up the heat in the bedroom without lifting my precious behind from the couch. Whether there's a motion in a garage is really secondary.
WiFi enabled HA is a bad idea. Please one of my earlier posts as to why. To recap, though (since you're self-proclaimed lazy and all):
Wifi is subject to a single transceiver - that does not automatically extend. This is a big problem in tight spaces, because generally the smaller you go, the worse reception / transmission power you'll have in these systems. What you want is a mesh network (i.e. ZigBee, Z-Wave, Insteon, etc) that will automatically handle the mesh aspect of being able to continually extend itself as you build out. It is also much less maintenance long term as well (for a variety of reasons).
But if you think that there aren't drop in replacement wall switches already - there are. Aeon Labs (http://aeotec.com/z-wave-in-wall-switches) makes some killer stuff that is in-wall, and there are a multitude of others. Check it out - everything you want is out there. And you can build an entire HA system in a decent size living space for far less than $750 USD.
This is insightful. I wonder if someone from Ninja or another HA user can comment on what value these systems can offer to someone in a one-bedroom apartment.
Living small also reduces the need for fancy power usage monitoring, WiFi repeaters, etc.
This looks really interesting. Some random thoughts:
Your homepage says the Ninja Block contains an Arduino-compatible µC and a BeagleBone. It took me a while to understand that the former is for communicating with sensors and the latter is for communicating with your API. I didn't realize they worked together at first - I thought it was some sort of "we used Arduino initially but then had to upgrade to something else in later versions" thing.
Interesting use of USB connectors to pass power and IO to accessory boards.
Here's a home automation-ish problem I've got right now:
We live in an on older (70ies) apartment building, with a wonky central heater, and people with varying levels of tolerance for heat and cold. Some of us suspect the heater is kind of broken, because it's hot when it's warmer out, and sometimes seems to pump out less heat when it's cold.
So... it'd be interesting to collect data: interior temperature for all 6 apartments, and exterior temperature in the shade. And do so cheaply. Ideas?
pros
- You can retrieve folded historical data for sensors from the api (min/max/avg/interval etc)
- You can set a callback that POSTs every reading (every 45s)
- cheap, additional temp/humidity sensors are $15
cons
- range could be a real problem. Manufacturer states 100m open air 30 inside, which is inline with our experience (with a fully extended antena). Apartment walls could be a showstopper.
I work in HVAC controls and I'm always surprised by how the 'home automation' folks seem to just ignore what's already out there.
My favorite standard is BACnet (standard for ASHRAE, ANSI and ISO), but there's also Modbus, Lontalk...
There's a bunch of people who have already worked very hard to make sure there's some usable protocols for lighting, air conditioning and even security access.
IMO you could leverage a strong position and use existing codes by using them.
Totally agree in principal @frozenlock. 433 was simply the path of least resistance for us. It gave us very cost effective off the shelf sensors, and critically, remote control power sockets in all regions. Its not super elegant, however, it gives software developers (most of our customers atm) hardware with an API for peanuts compared to the established options.
The Ninja is a meta-platform that offers a normalized API for disparate hardware. See my reply above for the long winded answer. The short version is - we aim to provide OAuth for your all stuff ;)
Hi, Frozenlock. I'm interested in the topic of home automation, but I know very little. Can you recommend any extra reading besides the standards that you mentioned?
What are you using for automation? At my old company, we were using Zigbee thermostats after giving up on BACnet/Modbus (just didn't have that time/ability)
I'm not really clear on how much hardware experience you need to extend this. For example, let's say I wanted to hook this up to my thermostat as you suggested, or to my espresso machine as you did. What would that actually require? Would I need those breakout boards? I can't even find any; how would I get one?
This kit includes a wireless temperature and humidity sensor.
If you want to hack your expresso machine you can use the breakout kit to do this (of course you'll need basic electronics skills to do this).
I've used Wiser Home Control, http://www.wiserhomeautomation.com/ . There isn't an API per say but I figured out that they're using XML for all their commands/events for lighting, heating, air-conditioning, security, etc.
A. Slow web hooks. The page is written in Sinatra. The sinatra app stores an inventory value in MongoDB.
When there is a new order, our commerce engine Shopify (is meant to) send a web hook POST to the sinatra app to get it to pull the current inventory via Shopify's API.
This hasn't been happening!
Like windexh8r, I'm starting to see the rise of home automation systems as well. This is actually an area I'm currently looking into working on some projects in.
With that, what are some some features users would like to see?
[+] [-] jwatte|13 years ago|reply
2) Like Twine, another HA startup, and all of the incumbents, it's too expensive.
[+] [-] windexh8er|13 years ago|reply
Then you have a startup like SmartThings (http://smartthings.com/) that's just reinventing the wheel, creating a pretty iOS interface, and then trying to charge an outrageous amount for a monthly service - something MiCasaVerde doesn't do. So, at the end of the day would I use SmartThings? I'd like to - but I won't because I don't want to pay $120 a year for something I can run better in my own infrastructure. I don't want you selling my energy usage data or knowing if I'm home, with something like MiCasaVerde - I can choose not to use their cloud proxy to control my home.
If anyone is listening who's designing home automation and wants to cater to people who are looking at building a service to deploy these types of automation to the masses you need to do it right. Baby Boomers, at least the majority of them, will think all of the above are too complicated, so they're going to want someone to install and maintain this for them. There's a huge middleground that needs to be solved here and unless SmartThings and others are going to provide a service, that $10/month is not going to be justified.
Back to NinjaBlocks, please answer the following: 1) Monthly fee if I use your cloud proxy to hit the controller? If so - how much? 2) If #1 is true - is the API directly accessible on the controller - or are you locking me in? 3) Low power integration (i.e. ZigBee, Z-Wave, Insteon, etc.)? Answered my own Q: No... From (http://help.ninjablocks.com/customer/portal/articles/692139-...): "The original Ninja Block comes with a RF 433.92 Mhz (433) dongle and future Ninja Blocks will have this baked in. 433 is awesome because you will find it in all sorts of low-cost battery powered devices, its range is pretty good too. That said, its not all sunshine and lollipops - there are good reasons its considered "low-tech" - only one device can "talk" at a time, labelling is appalling, all protocols are proprietary. So not everything will work out of the box, but a lot of stuff will. " <<<<<----- Sorry, but this sucks, I'm out. You need to have a real and baked solution besides this 433Mhz junk that's not mesh, and has zero security baked in. There's no way I'll pay $200 for this with zero long term scalability or security in mind.
Again, another pretty solution that's just a toy. For my money I'd go with SmartThings - but for the long term I'm sticking with my MiCasaVerde (http://micasaverde.com) setup - cost feasible and fully in my control and no monthly costs. Until someone can come to the table with that I'm better off building my own interface.
[+] [-] schappim|13 years ago|reply
(Ninja Marcus here) Thanks for your feedback and questions!
1) Nope, no monthly fee. 2) We don't support this today. We think most of the value actually occurs in the cloud. Having said that all our APIs, hardware and code are open source, if you want to implement this you can. 3) The question of protocols (433Mhz or otherwise seems to miss the point of Ninja Blocks (& the Ninja Platform). We want to integrate with ALL connected hardware. We've been working on adding other protocols like ZigBee, Z-Wave, Insteon but they're not ready yet. I personally believe the future is IP.
We've included 433Mhz because it gets people started very cheaply!
Cheers,
Marcus
[+] [-] onethumb|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neya|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cubicle67|13 years ago|reply
Not sure if people who use PayPay for credit card processing are aware of this. I'd love to buy this - and I attempted to - but can't.
[+] [-] schappim|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] damncabbage|13 years ago|reply
(BrainTree just launched in Australia[3], though. I'll be checking them out shortly for a project of my own. :) )
1. http://blog.angrymonkeys.com.au/why-being-an-aussie-startup-...
2. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3098224
3. https://www.braintreepayments.com/tour/international
[+] [-] DanBlake|13 years ago|reply
edit- It does not support the sensors :(
Also, will it work with standard security/video cameras (RTSP/RTMP)?
edit- no, it does not look like that works now either :/
[+] [-] windexh8er|13 years ago|reply
http://micasaverde.com/vera-lite.php
The Vera Lite is probably what you want... It can handle your existing sensors and do video (although the video isn't anything spectacular - I use a different system for that, but it does work).
The Vera has "app" concept - so from the controller you can install MiCasaVerde or community provided applications to do certain things (i.e something like a countdown timer for a scene, or an app to control an OTS yard watering system for example). But the best part is you can write your own apps (LUA). The system is entirely hackable (SSH access). So it's basically an open slate to most extent. But, the key thing is there's no monthly fee if you want to use their cloud service - you just need an account and controller (I'm guessing they collect stats on you events - but that's just a guess on my part).
The UI leaves something to be desired - and again, that's where startups like SmartThings will capitalize (pretty).
[+] [-] askpete|13 years ago|reply
IP cams (especially the ultra cheap ones with pan and tilt) are way up on our list. It will be one of the first client modules off the shelf in the new year.
[+] [-] huhtenberg|13 years ago|reply
I am as convinced as ever that almost all home automation needs, realistically, are covered by a WiFi-enabled drop-in replacements for conventional wall switches, junction boxes and sockets. Everything else is nice, but you must get the basics right before moving on to the fluff. And nobody still has got it. I want to be able to switch off a floor lamp 5 feet away and turn up the heat in the bedroom without lifting my precious behind from the couch. Whether there's a motion in a garage is really secondary.
[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3957590
[+] [-] windexh8er|13 years ago|reply
Wifi is subject to a single transceiver - that does not automatically extend. This is a big problem in tight spaces, because generally the smaller you go, the worse reception / transmission power you'll have in these systems. What you want is a mesh network (i.e. ZigBee, Z-Wave, Insteon, etc) that will automatically handle the mesh aspect of being able to continually extend itself as you build out. It is also much less maintenance long term as well (for a variety of reasons).
But if you think that there aren't drop in replacement wall switches already - there are. Aeon Labs (http://aeotec.com/z-wave-in-wall-switches) makes some killer stuff that is in-wall, and there are a multitude of others. Check it out - everything you want is out there. And you can build an entire HA system in a decent size living space for far less than $750 USD.
[+] [-] askpete|13 years ago|reply
We do remote control sockets today. Not elegant but at $10-15 a piece best priced laziness available.
We are cooking up something for IR controlled heating/cooling.
[+] [-] mcartyem|13 years ago|reply
That's a special case of a more general solution. The best way to solve a problem is to not have to solve it.
[+] [-] jzwinck|13 years ago|reply
Living small also reduces the need for fancy power usage monitoring, WiFi repeaters, etc.
[+] [-] Aqua_Geek|13 years ago|reply
Your homepage says the Ninja Block contains an Arduino-compatible µC and a BeagleBone. It took me a while to understand that the former is for communicating with sensors and the latter is for communicating with your API. I didn't realize they worked together at first - I thought it was some sort of "we used Arduino initially but then had to upgrade to something else in later versions" thing.
Interesting use of USB connectors to pass power and IO to accessory boards.
[+] [-] schappim|13 years ago|reply
Thanks for the feedback, we should make that more clear. Actually both the Arduino-compatible µC and a BeagleBone will be used to talk to sensors.
Having a tiny linux computer on board buys us a heap of flexibility!
Cheers,
Marcus
[+] [-] davidw|13 years ago|reply
We live in an on older (70ies) apartment building, with a wonky central heater, and people with varying levels of tolerance for heat and cold. Some of us suspect the heater is kind of broken, because it's hot when it's warmer out, and sometimes seems to pump out less heat when it's cold.
So... it'd be interesting to collect data: interior temperature for all 6 apartments, and exterior temperature in the shade. And do so cheaply. Ideas?
[+] [-] askpete|13 years ago|reply
pros - You can retrieve folded historical data for sensors from the api (min/max/avg/interval etc) - You can set a callback that POSTs every reading (every 45s) - cheap, additional temp/humidity sensors are $15
cons - range could be a real problem. Manufacturer states 100m open air 30 inside, which is inline with our experience (with a fully extended antena). Apartment walls could be a showstopper.
[+] [-] Frozenlock|13 years ago|reply
I work in HVAC controls and I'm always surprised by how the 'home automation' folks seem to just ignore what's already out there.
My favorite standard is BACnet (standard for ASHRAE, ANSI and ISO), but there's also Modbus, Lontalk...
There's a bunch of people who have already worked very hard to make sure there's some usable protocols for lighting, air conditioning and even security access.
IMO you could leverage a strong position and use existing codes by using them.
[+] [-] askpete|13 years ago|reply
The Ninja is a meta-platform that offers a normalized API for disparate hardware. See my reply above for the long winded answer. The short version is - we aim to provide OAuth for your all stuff ;)
[+] [-] elbear|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tsumnia|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jdotjdot|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] schappim|13 years ago|reply
Cheers,
Marcus (Ninja Blocks)
[+] [-] hingisundhorsa|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sauteedbiscuits|13 years ago|reply
It was 5 a few hours ago, then 12, now 19.
Pretty sure it is supposed to go the other way.
[+] [-] lunetics|13 years ago|reply
It uses KNX / EIB Bus industrial standards for Home automation, as well as enocean and other 3rd party automation tools.
And it's fully customizable / programmable with php.
[+] [-] notum|13 years ago|reply
Why isn't the "remaining" number going down?
[+] [-] schappim|13 years ago|reply
A. Slow web hooks. The page is written in Sinatra. The sinatra app stores an inventory value in MongoDB.
When there is a new order, our commerce engine Shopify (is meant to) send a web hook POST to the sinatra app to get it to pull the current inventory via Shopify's API. This hasn't been happening!
Cheers,
Marcus
[+] [-] Shaun_Springer|13 years ago|reply
I'd love to talk to you guys about what your doing and how maybe I can integrate some high end gear with it.
[+] [-] askpete|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tsumnia|13 years ago|reply
With that, what are some some features users would like to see?
[+] [-] sprobertson|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] schappim|13 years ago|reply
(Ninja) Marcus
[+] [-] huhtenberg|13 years ago|reply
https://s3.amazonaws.com/ninja-assets/gears.svg
:)
[+] [-] ww520|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tommys|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nepsilon|13 years ago|reply
On the other hand, your copyright year is already in 2013.