This is probably what Android should have been. I'm not a big fan of the Dalvik virtual machine layer on Android. It does drain device resources, especially RAM. I also think this type of architecture would have allowed convergence with Chrome OS more easily and cleanly.
I wonder if there is space left in the market for another open source OS though. Most people seem to think Android is open enough.
What gives me hope this could succeed is that the Ubuntu desktop is currently the desktop OS that is most user friendly and has the best user experience (IMO). Bringing Ubuntu's design team's superior skills to the mobile platform might give them the edge they need to become relevant in that space. I love my Ubuntu desktop. I really hope this takes off.
When Nokia started working on Meego, and Microsoft had plans for WP7, I was hoping Nokia would be smart enough to hurry up and form alliances with other manufacturers to become the defacto alternative to Android for all companies who either didn't want to use Android (RIM, HP, themselves) and companies who wanted a second OS for leverage against Google (Samsung, LG, HTC, etc).
I think they could've done it if they didn't slack off so much with Meego, and were serious about it, but in the same time I also knew Nokia was way too arrogant for their own good back then, and even if they made Meego on time, they probably wouldn't have shared it with others. But that would've been a mistake, because as we can see no OS that depends on one company alone can succeed anymore. Heck, even the ones that depend on several companies are having a very hard time already (WP7/8).
And the reason I would've preferred Meego to become the Android alternative, was because it was also an open source OS, and I would've liked more competition between open source OS's, rather than have just an open source one fight against multiple proprietary ones (iOS, WP, WebOS - at the time).
So I think there may still be time left for Ubuntu to become that alternative to Android, especially if manufacturers stop relying on WP8 and even Windows 8, and start to focus more on Ubuntu phones and Ubuntu laptops instead. But it's very hard to see if it will actually happen, right now, and if it does happen, we won't see it until 2014-2015.
> I'm not a big fan of the Dalvik virtual machine layer on Android.
It provides a processor independent application format. It is obvious now that ARM has won, but not so several years ago. There are many technical benefits to an abstract format including bytecode verification, and the consequent ability to run multiple applications in the same address space because you can't create pointers. JIT/hotspot style execution can also provide better performance than C.
In any event providing a CPU neutral application format isn't a bad decision - others have done it too.
> It does drain device resources, especially RAM.
That claim needs to be substantiated. Is native code significantly denser than bytecode? The mobile vendors have all gone with GC. Mark and sweep style GC has more RAM in play by design than something like reference counting, but there is no requirement that mark/sweep is used - Dalvik could use reference counting. Again there are tradeoffs but calling them a drain seems a large stretch.
Ubuntu desktop is currently the desktop OS that is most user friendly and has the best user experience (IMO). Bringing Ubuntu's design team's superior skills
Since this is just Ubuntu, I'm assuming I can ssh into it and have all of the unix utilities I'm used to without installing something like Busybox, and have full root control.
I'm assuming this has a lot of the normal unix layers we are used to. X.org? Wayland?
If so, this is a significant step up in terms of hackability than iOS or Android.
Assuming the lens works the same way as on the desktop, there have to be some command-line utilities installed, because the search lenses are using some very large python and whatever scripts to fetch and parse the data.
They also said that you could plug your phone into a TV and would get a full Ubuntu desktop with all the stuff you're used to.
So it seems to be basically a pretty standard Ubuntu with just a phone-interface.
It sounds like it is the standard Ubuntu userland, but I am not sure if that is a guarantee for root access. If most of Ubuntu is still under GPLv2 (or other non DRM restricting licenses), then there is nothing stopping the manufactoring from locking down the phone. If enough of Ubuntu is under GPLv3, then I think that the manufacturer would need to replace those pieces in order to lock down the phone.
One latest thing they just said, is that "ubuntu for phones" and "ubuntu for android" are 2 separate projects going on in parallel. So they're not abandoning ubuntu for android. Instead, they view that as a gateway to the ubuntu world, which would hopefully get more people into ubuntu for phones. As you can see, the official website still have tabs for both ubuntu for android and for phones:
What's the difference? I assume "ubuntu for phones" is where you physically install ubuntu on your phone (ie. it boots into the linux kernel with an ubuntu userland), but what's "ubuntu for android"? Is that (purely guessing here) an Ubuntu VM sold as an app, so phones would be running ubuntu inside a virtual machine under the Android OS's control?
For an OSS project, I've been quite disappointed in how difficult it is to find any info on the "ubuntu for android" project. It was announced almost a year ago and I can't find any forum or list for discussion/updates.
Isn't this the best time for Nokia to make Ubuntu Phones? I think so.
Ubuntu and Nokia can make a good fit, under the current circumstances.
Nokia maybe can now come back strongly, instead of believing in a closed ecosystem like windows, which is not going anywhere.
That ship has sailed for Nokia, and it looks like it will disband next year.
I could see Samsung, HTC, Huawei and others using it Ubuntu as an alternative to Android, though, instead of WP8 and Tizen, especially since Canonical says that if their devices work with Android, it's trivial to make them work with Ubuntu OS.
I assume that whatever contract they have with Microsoft would make that very difficult.
There's not really any evidence that this will sell more than Windows Phone does anyway, I kind of suspect that canonical would be thrilled if this got the same sort of sales that Windows Phone does.
They are already tainted with Windows. They probably gone through a good round of scapegoating blaming Qt and its previous Linux based phone for its failure and Canonical / Ubuntu probably wouldn't want to be associated with Nokia at this point as it will leave a bad taste in developer's mouths.
Very cool. I'm looking forward to this phone, and it's (hopefully) hacking potential. I'd love to write my own scripts in $LANGUAGE to interact with the phone sensors. If it's built on Ubuntu, it should all be open to us, right?
I see that this page (http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/app-ecosystem) states that the apps are created with HTML5 or QML, but I'm hoping other languages are just an apt-get away. If so, they can have my money now.
This is exciting, but... I wish they hadn't gone the route of hiding app controls behind a swipe menu. The menu button on Android was one of the reasons apps for so long seemed unintuitive on the platform, and the Windows 8 charms menu has been panned by critics for the same reason. If your users can't see the controls, they won't know they're there — and even though they could open the menu, it won't feel immediately intuitive in the way that just seeing the controls onscreen does. Even a little breadcrumb like the now-common triple-dash icon on iOS or the triple-dot icon on Android helps people find their way around unfamiliar apps.
Android finally dropped the hidden menu after the 2.x series, but it looks like Canonical just walked into making the same mistake.
That said this is very, very cool. Using non-mainstream programming languages on phones will be interesting.
Yeah, yeah, let's bitch. But who's going to vouch for all the mandated stuff that has to work? Oops some requisite form/filing/testing was skipped? Who's going to stand up with a target on their back to be sued when someone dies after 911 doesn't work? Who's going to be responsible when some bug in your phone floods/knocks out your cell and denies 911 service to others? Does the law allow you to waive compliance with all of that stuff on equipment you don't own (towers)? I honestly don't know but good luck getting an answer other than "no" or "not sure" and a general default punting of liability/ability to waive policies to the next guy.
Of course, magic hurdle number one is either getting a cell stack (GSM/CDMA) that you have rights to distribute, by either licensing (as Google does) or writing one yourself (as seems to be impossible given "open" standards). AFAIK there are no FOSS stacks.
I wonder if the limitations of the HTML5+JavaScript framework for developping apps on Ubuntu will be removed when Firefox OS is released. Why wouldn't Canonical implement the JS APIs that are built for Firefox OS and make Firefox OS apps runs natively on Ubuntu?
Swiping from the edge of the screen is not always easy with a protective case on your phone, as it impedes your ability to do so. Pretty annoying problem that I haven't seen that considered in many places.
He is pitching the same things and similar UI gestures and concepts as Windows 8. I don't know if it will ever be a competitor to iOS, or Android. But its surely gonna hurt Blackberry.
The phone looks like Win8 Metro, and the presenter is trying to be Steve Jobs. With the cpu's in phones already being phenomenally fast I see little to no value in removing the java layer. Currently this is vaporware, but should it appear on a phone sometime soon, I just don't see it gaining any marketshare beyond some of the hardcore OSS fans. Real people like an app ecosystem with their latest Angry Birds games and don't much care about any of the technical details.
The "lock screen" is just weird, and the hyperbole spouted by the presenter was downright embarrassing.
It all comes down to the apps. If Google Maps/Gmail/Chrome/Youtube etc all run on it then it might stand a chance, but I don't see further phone market fragmentation as being in anyone's interest.
I do, however, use Ubuntu as my main desktop (2.6.38)
Believe that all of us working in video games want program execution on mobile devices to be as fast as possible. My brand-new desktop PC is not fast enough for what I want to do, so an Android phone running a bytecode interpreter is that much further.
I also don't think you know what "vaporware" means. If it is actually running on physical hardware it's not vaporware; it is just not in consumer hands yet. (Since Engadget has played with it on a physical phone... it is known to be real.)
How is it vaporware? There was a prototype on a phone already. There is code that Canonical said they would release soon (image for the Galaxy Nexus).
What is missing is a (smart) carrier picking it up and running with it. I for one hope someone like Samsung release a phone with it. I'd buy this in a heartbeat.
Is it significant that the "apps" you list are either a browser or 3 Google properties that are better known as web apps, and primarily ad supported?
I would have thought games would be the more difficult step since most people seem to use their "smart"phones as fashionable gameboys and you need a complicated system of in-app-purchases for getting kids to accidentally buy $100 dollars worth of "smurfberries" with their parents credit cards to finance the production of these games.
And games has, traditionally, been something that Ubuntu and Desktop Linux hasn't had much success with.
> Real people like an app ecosystem with their latest Angry Birds games
Since Dalvik is open-source, perhaps they could tweak a few things to make Android apps run on Ubuntu, albeit a little slower? Out of the box compatibility with existing Android apps would be a huge gain for a mobile OS that is just trying to enter the market.
I was thinking the other day, how Ubuntu and the movement of free friendly desktop became less relevant with the triumphant march of iOS and Android. Considering that Mark Shuttleworth is a smart leader. He will definitely make a proper move in the near future.
I hope with their "HTML5 Apps" there will be strong integration with local storage and that the phone will be able to cache all of the assets and JS files etc locally if they are going for "Web apps should be just like native apps".
The problem with "cloud apps" on phones is that you run into the real problems of carrier imposed bandwidth limits and slow connectivity in places.
Apps that have a horrendously slow UI if you are anywhere outside of a major city will not be much fun to use.
I've been contemplating the idea of a full fledged Linux as a mobile operating system for a while now. It's great to see that people have already been working on this. I like how it finally offers development in native languages that aren't Objective-C. The UI is looking good and from the presentation it looks usable. If that is really a proper Linux I'll definitely give it a try once I get my hands on it.
Their plans look surprisingly like a Motorola Atrix! It runs Android normally but also has an old Ubuntu ARM system on it which it runs when docked. Having said this, it needed a severe amount of hacking around and rooting to get it to a usable state and to fix the repositories and broken dependencies and horrible window manager.
I have one and its dock plugged into the TV. I also have the Lapdock. It isn't a massively powerful phone but alright for compiling this and that, word processing and SSHing to more powerful machines. Sadly, Motorola have announced that they will make no more of this type of phone as it wasn't overly popular (and the Lapdock and accessories were stupidly expensive)
So, with the Ubuntu phone I can see this being popular with a few geeks but not with the mass market. If they stop making Unity behave like it is on a tablet when it is really on a PC, that'd be great. That is one good thing that could come from this, right?
[+] [-] BenoitEssiambre|13 years ago|reply
I wonder if there is space left in the market for another open source OS though. Most people seem to think Android is open enough.
What gives me hope this could succeed is that the Ubuntu desktop is currently the desktop OS that is most user friendly and has the best user experience (IMO). Bringing Ubuntu's design team's superior skills to the mobile platform might give them the edge they need to become relevant in that space. I love my Ubuntu desktop. I really hope this takes off.
[+] [-] mtgx|13 years ago|reply
I think they could've done it if they didn't slack off so much with Meego, and were serious about it, but in the same time I also knew Nokia was way too arrogant for their own good back then, and even if they made Meego on time, they probably wouldn't have shared it with others. But that would've been a mistake, because as we can see no OS that depends on one company alone can succeed anymore. Heck, even the ones that depend on several companies are having a very hard time already (WP7/8).
And the reason I would've preferred Meego to become the Android alternative, was because it was also an open source OS, and I would've liked more competition between open source OS's, rather than have just an open source one fight against multiple proprietary ones (iOS, WP, WebOS - at the time).
So I think there may still be time left for Ubuntu to become that alternative to Android, especially if manufacturers stop relying on WP8 and even Windows 8, and start to focus more on Ubuntu phones and Ubuntu laptops instead. But it's very hard to see if it will actually happen, right now, and if it does happen, we won't see it until 2014-2015.
[+] [-] rogerbinns|13 years ago|reply
It provides a processor independent application format. It is obvious now that ARM has won, but not so several years ago. There are many technical benefits to an abstract format including bytecode verification, and the consequent ability to run multiple applications in the same address space because you can't create pointers. JIT/hotspot style execution can also provide better performance than C.
In any event providing a CPU neutral application format isn't a bad decision - others have done it too.
> It does drain device resources, especially RAM.
That claim needs to be substantiated. Is native code significantly denser than bytecode? The mobile vendors have all gone with GC. Mark and sweep style GC has more RAM in play by design than something like reference counting, but there is no requirement that mark/sweep is used - Dalvik could use reference counting. Again there are tradeoffs but calling them a drain seems a large stretch.
[+] [-] mmanfrin|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MatthewPhillips|13 years ago|reply
I'm assuming this has a lot of the normal unix layers we are used to. X.org? Wayland?
If so, this is a significant step up in terms of hackability than iOS or Android.
[+] [-] chmod775|13 years ago|reply
They also said that you could plug your phone into a TV and would get a full Ubuntu desktop with all the stuff you're used to.
So it seems to be basically a pretty standard Ubuntu with just a phone-interface.
[+] [-] gizmo686|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pandeiro|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trendnet|13 years ago|reply
You can ssh into iOS and have all the Unix utilities and full root control for quite some time.
[+] [-] vibrunazo|13 years ago|reply
https://plus.google.com/u/0/115750270177636397262/posts/HBof...
One latest thing they just said, is that "ubuntu for phones" and "ubuntu for android" are 2 separate projects going on in parallel. So they're not abandoning ubuntu for android. Instead, they view that as a gateway to the ubuntu world, which would hopefully get more people into ubuntu for phones. As you can see, the official website still have tabs for both ubuntu for android and for phones:
http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android/
[+] [-] gcr|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] infinii|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pajju|13 years ago|reply
Ubuntu and Nokia can make a good fit, under the current circumstances. Nokia maybe can now come back strongly, instead of believing in a closed ecosystem like windows, which is not going anywhere.
[+] [-] mtgx|13 years ago|reply
I could see Samsung, HTC, Huawei and others using it Ubuntu as an alternative to Android, though, instead of WP8 and Tizen, especially since Canonical says that if their devices work with Android, it's trivial to make them work with Ubuntu OS.
[+] [-] jiggy2011|13 years ago|reply
There's not really any evidence that this will sell more than Windows Phone does anyway, I kind of suspect that canonical would be thrilled if this got the same sort of sales that Windows Phone does.
[+] [-] rdtsc|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] typicalrunt|13 years ago|reply
I see that this page (http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/app-ecosystem) states that the apps are created with HTML5 or QML, but I'm hoping other languages are just an apt-get away. If so, they can have my money now.
[+] [-] Newky|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tsahyt|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] reissbaker|13 years ago|reply
Android finally dropped the hidden menu after the 2.x series, but it looks like Canonical just walked into making the same mistake.
That said this is very, very cool. Using non-mainstream programming languages on phones will be interesting.
[+] [-] Rickasaurus|13 years ago|reply
Not that I'm a bitter ex-Ubuntu user or anything.
[+] [-] rdtsc|13 years ago|reply
http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=3434
Not that I am a bitter Android VOIP developer or anything ;-)
[+] [-] fixedd|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drcube|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fluidcruft|13 years ago|reply
Of course, magic hurdle number one is either getting a cell stack (GSM/CDMA) that you have rights to distribute, by either licensing (as Google does) or writing one yourself (as seems to be impossible given "open" standards). AFAIK there are no FOSS stacks.
[+] [-] dokem|13 years ago|reply
Oh, how spoiled of you.
[+] [-] richbradshaw|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jiggy2011|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] p4bl0|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nuclear_eclipse|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eloisant|13 years ago|reply
A Mozilla engineer told me that without Android (and consequently Linux kernel and drivers availability) they could never have pulled it.
[+] [-] akavlie|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zyb09|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rradu|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chestnut-tree|13 years ago|reply
http://youtu.be/cpWHJDLsqTU?t=5m20s
[+] [-] maxpert|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hnriot|13 years ago|reply
The "lock screen" is just weird, and the hyperbole spouted by the presenter was downright embarrassing.
It all comes down to the apps. If Google Maps/Gmail/Chrome/Youtube etc all run on it then it might stand a chance, but I don't see further phone market fragmentation as being in anyone's interest.
I do, however, use Ubuntu as my main desktop (2.6.38)
[+] [-] jblow|13 years ago|reply
Believe that all of us working in video games want program execution on mobile devices to be as fast as possible. My brand-new desktop PC is not fast enough for what I want to do, so an Android phone running a bytecode interpreter is that much further.
I also don't think you know what "vaporware" means. If it is actually running on physical hardware it's not vaporware; it is just not in consumer hands yet. (Since Engadget has played with it on a physical phone... it is known to be real.)
[+] [-] fingerprinter|13 years ago|reply
What is missing is a (smart) carrier picking it up and running with it. I for one hope someone like Samsung release a phone with it. I'd buy this in a heartbeat.
[+] [-] ZeroGravitas|13 years ago|reply
I would have thought games would be the more difficult step since most people seem to use their "smart"phones as fashionable gameboys and you need a complicated system of in-app-purchases for getting kids to accidentally buy $100 dollars worth of "smurfberries" with their parents credit cards to finance the production of these games.
And games has, traditionally, been something that Ubuntu and Desktop Linux hasn't had much success with.
[+] [-] kijin|13 years ago|reply
Since Dalvik is open-source, perhaps they could tweak a few things to make Android apps run on Ubuntu, albeit a little slower? Out of the box compatibility with existing Android apps would be a huge gain for a mobile OS that is just trying to enter the market.
[+] [-] trendnet|13 years ago|reply
And here we go...
[+] [-] asimjalis|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icebraining|13 years ago|reply
/disgruntled Nokia fan
[+] [-] mtgx|13 years ago|reply
http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/app-ecosystem
[+] [-] joshka|13 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oye9AmOdsZc is uncanny.
[+] [-] jiggy2011|13 years ago|reply
The problem with "cloud apps" on phones is that you run into the real problems of carrier imposed bandwidth limits and slow connectivity in places.
Apps that have a horrendously slow UI if you are anywhere outside of a major city will not be much fun to use.
[+] [-] pedalpete|13 years ago|reply
I don't believe there is anything stopping us from caching all the JS in localstorage already, though I haven't done it yet.
Apparently, you can even store images in localstorage http://robnyman.github.com/html5demos/localstorage/
[+] [-] tsahyt|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 72deluxe|13 years ago|reply
So, with the Ubuntu phone I can see this being popular with a few geeks but not with the mass market. If they stop making Unity behave like it is on a tablet when it is really on a PC, that'd be great. That is one good thing that could come from this, right?