I went through a similar program in San Francisco - Devbootcamp. They are opening a sister program in Chicago. I went on to a 6 month apprenticeship at Groupon, and am now accepting a position at Hashrocket.
Some feedback - depending on the starting level of the class, 4 weeks is INCREDIBLY short. Taking a look at our class (Devbootcamp #1) - over 75% of the class went on to take dev jobs in some capacity with a $80k average salary...I don't know the validity of those marketed numbers. However, we put in 8-10 weeks. I wrote a HN post after that class "334 Hours of Ruby on Rails" (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3794069). Weeks are compounding...I don't believe you can really hit your stride in just 4 weeks without prior ruby experience. This would be a great introduction class - but job ready, I'm highly skeptical. Apprenticeship ready - sure.
If you want more than just a taste of Ruby on Rails - I would take the leap and try to get into one of the Devbootcamp classes in Chicago or San Francisco. I've also heard good things about Hacker School in NY.
It's interesting looking at the arc that education related products/startups are going through. It's obvious that the internet should be revolutionizing education, but Universities and other traditional institutions still seem more or less unchanged. Various (mostly free) mass online education platforms/products/startups emerge. A lot of interest follows. Results are good but not revolutionizing education in 2 years good. A lot of people get frustrated with some of the hurdles (benchamarking, coaching, commitment) and find they can be overcome with in person education. A bunch of intensive, small, energetic courses with high teacher/student ratios emerge that squash those problems.
I'm not saying its not a productive process. It might be just what's needed. Education is hard and important and it seems like progress is happening.
Since it's free to comment, I'll comment that I'd like to see these two newly invigorated paths cross-pollinate. Is there a way of getting all the advantages of in-person education at scale and with lower costs? Can technology be used to lower teacher student ratio without costing effectiveness?
This is all of course through the lens of the stuff reaching me via articles & blogs & HN. In reality I am sure that the majority of people learning stuff are completely unaffected by either MIT Open courseware, Corsera... It's really more an arc of HN interest, but still.
I think we strike a great balance of what you're looking for at Tealeaf Academy.
If you're looking for an online option, check out Tealeaf Academy for an online bootcamp: http://www.gotealeaf.com Disclaimer: I'm a cofounder.
Our courses are project driven and you learn with a cohort. We want to maintain the quality and intensity, without forcing you to relocate or quit your job. The trade off is that we mentor you for a longer duration. If that appeals to you, then Tealeaf Academy could make sense for you.
hint: hover over the faces on the world map for student testimonials
In the UK the Open University has been doing distance learning for many years.
They approach this with distance learning materials, exercises regularly marked by real people giving feedback, IIRC regular monthly opportunities to go and speak to your peers and slightly less regular opportunities to meet the course tutors.
Once a year, depending on the course, they would run a 1 - 2 week intensive, usually in summer.
Some new startups and technologies are serving great purpose. For example when you take some classes at uc Berkeley, they shove you into a social network of classes teachers and students. Students ask each other and the teachers questions about work assignments, etc unifying your 500 person lecture.
Universities are already starting to lose the monopoly they once held as more and more students realize that $200,000 of debt might not be worth it for a piece of paper.
Is this a way for designers & people who have dabbled with coding to become professional programmers (IE some sort of alternative to Uni) or a way for people who are already professional programmers to learn a new programming environment (IE alternative to on the job training)
If you like codefellows' pricing model, you may also want to check out the hacker academy that I help run: http://www.appacademy.io.
We only charge tuition if you find a job as a dev after the course. Also, we've done this before: 93% of our grads have offers or are working in tech jobs now at an average salary of $83,000.
Companies that have hired from the program include: Facebook, Twilio, Zendesk, Thoughtbot and Carbon Five.
I sent in my application and am now doing the Ruby prepwork to prepare for the coding challenge (no prior Ruby experience), is there any advice you would give for the interview? App Academy is everything that I am looking for.
It's good to see these programs continuing to pop up, but almost all of them are far too short, in my opinion.
When we (Jumpstart Lab) did Hungry Academy and now gSchool[1], they were six months long for a reason. There's a _lot_ to learn to be a competent Rails developer, and you just can't get that from a few weeks of morning instruction.
For the 4-week bootcamp, we're aiming for engineers who know how to program and want to move to Rails. They will probably already have a CS degree and work in tech, but they don't know Rails. We'll migrate their skills to Rails and connect them with area startups (we're also aiming at professional designers who know HTML/CSS and want to move up the stack).
Our instructors feel 4-weeks is enough time for training these experienced engineers. If it isn't, we'll extend the course. If someone is changing their life and paying money to take this bootcamp, we're going to do our best to care of them.
For absolute beginners, we'll offer a different track. It's remarkable what you guys accomplish in a six-month program.
The bootcamp is a very good idea. 4 weeks should be enough for people with programming experience to get a basic idea of how RoR works. I especially like the "1:1 Mentoring" idea. Personally I learned a lot from small group (2-3 students to a supervisor) supervisions (also known as tutorial/recitation elsewhere) in university.
> want to get a job, attend the events and meetings we set up for you
Nothing too bad there, although I'm not sure how "want to get a job" is proven.
I like how the web-site forgets key details like "where is this course being run?" "Are you accredited?" "What supplies do I need to bring?" "Basic qualifications to start?"
I hate it when sites don't say where the product is, too.
South Lake Union is one of the startup hubs of Seattle--Amazon has most of its buildings here, TechStars Seattle is here, and a bunch of great small and medium startups.
We're not accredited--you can't get student loans for the program. You need to bring a laptop to the bootcamp (we should mention that on the site...shoot).
"4-week RoR bootcamp in South Lake Union, Seattle."
"You do not need to know Ruby or Rails, but it helps if you're familiar with basic programming concepts and tools, like running terminal commands and using a text editor."
Admittedly, the latter is not too precise, but they do state it.
"I like how the web-site forgets key details like "where is this course being run?" "Are you accredited?" "What supplies do I need to bring?" "Basic qualifications to start?""
Where is answered on the home page in fairly large typeface. Accredited is a bizarre question... As something that's trying to do something novel in education, you can assume not. Supplies aren't mentioned, but I think it's fairly obvious-- you need a computer. Basic qualifications are answered in the faq.
How good a salary is $60k? In the UK, £60k is a really good salary, and about three times the earnings average. (I know that £60k is more like $96k, once you convert it, but I'm not sure how good a salary that is in US terms.)
It depends on the area. In Seattle, it'd probably be seen as junior-mid-level compensation. In the Midwest, it is more solid-mid-level. Generally speaking, $60k income is solidly middle class, perhaps with a hint of "upper middle class", again dependent on the region.
Salaries for web programmers in the US usually cap out around $100k for the most senior guys, +-20k, depending on the region (the Bay Area being the exception, where senior-level guys will get closer to 200). Programmers who do lower level stuff (OSes, etc.) can usually expect to cap out at something like 140, +-20k. In most cases, you're not going to get more than that unless you either a) become a manager or b) have unusual circumstances around your employment (like name recognition).
$60k as a developer in Seattle is pretty crappy, but I guess if you need a class like this to break into the profession...you gotta start somewhere. You would need to double that salary to enter the range where you could afford to buy a house in the city limits. Between the $60k salary and the 6 months to land a job they have a pretty good hedge.
It is a great teaser and certainly is the most initially intriguing thing about this program, so from a marketing perspective it is brilliant!
It's far far above median for jobs in the US, but on the lower end for web development jobs in general. I'd say it's quite normal for a starter position nowadays.
I disagree. The courses just show how high the demand is for courses.
In general you often hear stories in the newspaper about "we cannot hire programmers!" but I know tons of unemployed programmers.
If you go actually look at the job postings in a lot of areas it is slim pickings right now. The pay is bad, the benefits are worse, and the competition is high.
Schools continue to pump out CS grads and compensation continues to plummet.
I think what they mean when they say "there aren't enough programmers" is "we have to pay them too much, look at India!!"
As a marketing guy who has dabbled in learning programming online and failed, I think that these bootcamps are the answer. Mentorship and development of projects with peers is engaging, teaching myself from a book is not.
As someone with little to no experience with coding boot camps , can I get some feedback on someone in his mid-40s attending one of these? I have a lot of coding background, mostly in C#, asp.net and MSSQL experience.
I'm both happy and sad to see these bootcamps spread. Happy, because I think they're a good way for people to get into the industry or learn rails/node/ios/whatever. Sad, because they indicate the failure of colleges and universities to teach modern development tools, environments, and frameworks. Yes, I understand that education is supposed to "prepare" for the workplace rather than "train." But the notion that in 4 years of undergraduate study a 200k education can't bother with what these bootcamps do in 6-12 weeks....
Except that they do. A friend of mine currently in school seems to be spending half his time writing Android apps. I find this a little disgusting, since it's like teaching political science students by asking them to write speeches for current politicians, but I guess industry is king.
I'd be okay with it if it were a vocational school, but it's not.
> failure of colleges and universities
> to teach modern development tools, environments, and frameworks.
They shouldn't. Universities should teach fundamental knowledge necessary in the field. I find it ridiculous that people go to universities and expect to be taught how to make websites and mobile apps. That's something you teach yourself over the weekend. You don't need to go to a university to learn that.
Does anyone have experience hiring people from these camps vs. those who did study on their own?
I'm in Boston, did some programming in college (mostly C++, a bit of HTML and CSS - a few web sites for family, mostly for fun) and then had the slight misfortune of going to law school just before law crashed. We all make mistakes, but I did mostly IP so I hope it comes in handy down the road.
Anyway, I've been helping with a startup doing a little bit of everything and have been using Team Treehouse to work through Ruby and iOS (since that's what the coders do at work). I'm basically working for free and can only find "internships" for non-tech people. (I do have another part-time job that pays something)
I can't afford $10k for a bootcamp. If I keep going with Treehouse and Code Academy, produce some small projects, will that be taken seriously? These camps are full-time for a few weeks, but I'm learning part-time for months.
I wonder if there is Anything like this in the Atlanta area, if there isn't, then I think it would be a great idea, there is a very vibrant rails community here, lot's of startup activity, mentoring programs, incubators and accelerators, and the number of recruiters in the ruby meetup is almost larger than the number of developers, if I wasn't too busy doing my own things I would have opened a program here, cost of living is very low and salaries are not that far from NY / SF (buying power is much, much higher, and housing is pretty cheap) so more and more companies move things to the area.
If anyone reads this and plans to open a similar program and can allow themselves to be geographically flexible, I would have Georgia on my mind.
>If you want a job, complete the program, work with us on finding an employer, and don't get an offer within six months of finishing the program, we've screwed up and we'll give you your money back.
On one hand that seems like a pretty safe bet for them. How many programmers go six months without finding a (relatively low paying) job? Worst case: they give back the tuition. Not really a big deal.
On the other hand, I'm wondering how many start ups really hire people with only 4 weeks of training and no experience. Maybe a lot? I really don't know.
This is a very interesting take on the problem of "finding engineers". I guess the model is to partner with companies who need engineers and then connect thsoe engineers with the sponsoring companies once they are trained. I am not sure though if 4 weeks is enough for someone with no background in computer science or programming. But it is probably a great idea for people with some background/experience already in programming.
I live in San Francisco now, but I used to live in SLU before it was Amazon-land. The phrase "one of the many SLU lunch trucks" sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. I used to get frustrated at so few lunch options around there. I was back recently; there's a lot that's new and a lot still in transition; it's funny to see things change in such a short time.
[+] [-] adennis4|13 years ago|reply
Some feedback - depending on the starting level of the class, 4 weeks is INCREDIBLY short. Taking a look at our class (Devbootcamp #1) - over 75% of the class went on to take dev jobs in some capacity with a $80k average salary...I don't know the validity of those marketed numbers. However, we put in 8-10 weeks. I wrote a HN post after that class "334 Hours of Ruby on Rails" (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3794069). Weeks are compounding...I don't believe you can really hit your stride in just 4 weeks without prior ruby experience. This would be a great introduction class - but job ready, I'm highly skeptical. Apprenticeship ready - sure.
If you want more than just a taste of Ruby on Rails - I would take the leap and try to get into one of the Devbootcamp classes in Chicago or San Francisco. I've also heard good things about Hacker School in NY.
[+] [-] netcan|13 years ago|reply
I'm not saying its not a productive process. It might be just what's needed. Education is hard and important and it seems like progress is happening.
Since it's free to comment, I'll comment that I'd like to see these two newly invigorated paths cross-pollinate. Is there a way of getting all the advantages of in-person education at scale and with lower costs? Can technology be used to lower teacher student ratio without costing effectiveness?
This is all of course through the lens of the stuff reaching me via articles & blogs & HN. In reality I am sure that the majority of people learning stuff are completely unaffected by either MIT Open courseware, Corsera... It's really more an arc of HN interest, but still.
[+] [-] cglee|13 years ago|reply
If you're looking for an online option, check out Tealeaf Academy for an online bootcamp: http://www.gotealeaf.com Disclaimer: I'm a cofounder.
Our courses are project driven and you learn with a cohort. We want to maintain the quality and intensity, without forcing you to relocate or quit your job. The trade off is that we mentor you for a longer duration. If that appeals to you, then Tealeaf Academy could make sense for you.
hint: hover over the faces on the world map for student testimonials
[+] [-] Swannie|13 years ago|reply
They approach this with distance learning materials, exercises regularly marked by real people giving feedback, IIRC regular monthly opportunities to go and speak to your peers and slightly less regular opportunities to meet the course tutors.
Once a year, depending on the course, they would run a 1 - 2 week intensive, usually in summer.
[+] [-] hayksaakian|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shiftpgdn|13 years ago|reply
Universities are already starting to lose the monopoly they once held as more and more students realize that $200,000 of debt might not be worth it for a piece of paper.
[+] [-] netcan|13 years ago|reply
Is this a way for designers & people who have dabbled with coding to become professional programmers (IE some sort of alternative to Uni) or a way for people who are already professional programmers to learn a new programming environment (IE alternative to on the job training)
[+] [-] CesareBorgia|13 years ago|reply
We only charge tuition if you find a job as a dev after the course. Also, we've done this before: 93% of our grads have offers or are working in tech jobs now at an average salary of $83,000.
Companies that have hired from the program include: Facebook, Twilio, Zendesk, Thoughtbot and Carbon Five.
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] beachhouse|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] steveklabnik|13 years ago|reply
When we (Jumpstart Lab) did Hungry Academy and now gSchool[1], they were six months long for a reason. There's a _lot_ to learn to be a competent Rails developer, and you just can't get that from a few weeks of morning instruction.
1: http://gschool.it
[+] [-] fescue|13 years ago|reply
Our instructors feel 4-weeks is enough time for training these experienced engineers. If it isn't, we'll extend the course. If someone is changing their life and paying money to take this bootcamp, we're going to do our best to care of them.
For absolute beginners, we'll offer a different track. It's remarkable what you guys accomplish in a six-month program.
[+] [-] JoelMcCracken|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] btian|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] UnoriginalGuy|13 years ago|reply
There are some details:
> want to get a job, attend the events and meetings we set up for you
Nothing too bad there, although I'm not sure how "want to get a job" is proven.
I like how the web-site forgets key details like "where is this course being run?" "Are you accredited?" "What supplies do I need to bring?" "Basic qualifications to start?"
[+] [-] fescue|13 years ago|reply
South Lake Union is one of the startup hubs of Seattle--Amazon has most of its buildings here, TechStars Seattle is here, and a bunch of great small and medium startups.
We're not accredited--you can't get student loans for the program. You need to bring a laptop to the bootcamp (we should mention that on the site...shoot).
[+] [-] ewolf|13 years ago|reply
"You do not need to know Ruby or Rails, but it helps if you're familiar with basic programming concepts and tools, like running terminal commands and using a text editor."
Admittedly, the latter is not too precise, but they do state it.
[+] [-] webwright|13 years ago|reply
Where is answered on the home page in fairly large typeface. Accredited is a bizarre question... As something that's trying to do something novel in education, you can assume not. Supplies aren't mentioned, but I think it's fairly obvious-- you need a computer. Basic qualifications are answered in the faq.
[+] [-] fescue|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abeh|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikey_p|13 years ago|reply
And yes, we have way more jobs for most types of positions than programmers available.
[+] [-] koralatov|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cookiecaper|13 years ago|reply
Salaries for web programmers in the US usually cap out around $100k for the most senior guys, +-20k, depending on the region (the Bay Area being the exception, where senior-level guys will get closer to 200). Programmers who do lower level stuff (OSes, etc.) can usually expect to cap out at something like 140, +-20k. In most cases, you're not going to get more than that unless you either a) become a manager or b) have unusual circumstances around your employment (like name recognition).
[+] [-] patja|13 years ago|reply
It is a great teaser and certainly is the most initially intriguing thing about this program, so from a marketing perspective it is brilliant!
[+] [-] jqueryin|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shiftpgdn|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fescue|13 years ago|reply
[1] http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-ruby+on+rails/l...
[+] [-] netcan|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] UnoriginalGuy|13 years ago|reply
In general you often hear stories in the newspaper about "we cannot hire programmers!" but I know tons of unemployed programmers.
If you go actually look at the job postings in a lot of areas it is slim pickings right now. The pay is bad, the benefits are worse, and the competition is high.
Schools continue to pump out CS grads and compensation continues to plummet.
I think what they mean when they say "there aren't enough programmers" is "we have to pay them too much, look at India!!"
[+] [-] benhebert|13 years ago|reply
This is just me though.
[+] [-] gregd|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bicknergseng|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saraid216|13 years ago|reply
I'd be okay with it if it were a vocational school, but it's not.
[+] [-] 10098|13 years ago|reply
They shouldn't. Universities should teach fundamental knowledge necessary in the field. I find it ridiculous that people go to universities and expect to be taught how to make websites and mobile apps. That's something you teach yourself over the weekend. You don't need to go to a university to learn that.
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] materialhero|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway2015|13 years ago|reply
I'm in Boston, did some programming in college (mostly C++, a bit of HTML and CSS - a few web sites for family, mostly for fun) and then had the slight misfortune of going to law school just before law crashed. We all make mistakes, but I did mostly IP so I hope it comes in handy down the road.
Anyway, I've been helping with a startup doing a little bit of everything and have been using Team Treehouse to work through Ruby and iOS (since that's what the coders do at work). I'm basically working for free and can only find "internships" for non-tech people. (I do have another part-time job that pays something)
I can't afford $10k for a bootcamp. If I keep going with Treehouse and Code Academy, produce some small projects, will that be taken seriously? These camps are full-time for a few weeks, but I'm learning part-time for months.
[+] [-] eranation|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jere|13 years ago|reply
On one hand that seems like a pretty safe bet for them. How many programmers go six months without finding a (relatively low paying) job? Worst case: they give back the tuition. Not really a big deal.
On the other hand, I'm wondering how many start ups really hire people with only 4 weeks of training and no experience. Maybe a lot? I really don't know.
[+] [-] codegeek|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fescue|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asveikau|13 years ago|reply