I can speak quite a bit about this "industry": We (VLC) receive 1 of those offers per day.
They are liars, shady business, IP violators and are downright dangerous.
They have all those great offers for you, but they refuse to give any details as soon as you ask any question. More than half of them are "the biggest in the world" (sic). They lie about download numbers, about download size, about number of software actually installed and about their connexions. They even lie on the actual payback price.
If you refuse, they build special websites, copying yours, with your IP and trademark and register adwords with your name, in every way possible.
They also resell their solutions/websites to other people, using "Affiliate networks", so that once you take one down, 20 appear. And the guy who you took down had no idea who you were or what the software was...
They also have deals with download.com/softopedia/softonic to change/rewrap your installer, without your agreement, often violating your license; or they give back money to those websites, so they are ranked higher than normal other downloads.
And of course, open source software are never respected.
I believe OP is very polite: There are no good reasons to not shame them publicly.
So when earlier it was mentioned, I assumed "They have to have a different angle on this; they're a YC company." And seeing a strong thread title and no evidence for it other than "The industry they're in is ridiculously seedy", I thought maybe HN was in rush to judgement mode.
So I thought I'd try, you know, installing something.
Comment in elaboration, somewhat delayed because (all evidence to the contrary) I do sleep sometimes:
Some folks mentioned that this could be misleading, so to clarify: my research methodology, to the extent it can be called that, was a) open up the IM website, b) take a look at their advertiser partner wall (they don't have a developer partner wall, so I wasn't able to view the end-user experience directly), c) Google the first name that popped out: [babylon translation software], d) clicked the first link and downloaded, e) clicked past the first screen, which let me override my system default of Japanese such that y'all would be able to read the rest of the installer, where industry experience suggested to me that the action would be.
Sorry if I gave folks the impression that this was the InstallMonetizer application -- the impression I was trying to leave was "This is the core line of business for one of their marquis advertisers."
It's funny that you mention Babylon - I've talked to one of the devs who was in the core of developing their "toolbar" and it is essentially malware which hooks anything and everything possible in Windows and tries its best not to give up when being uninstalled.
Things like it and Conduit (another toolbar/malware company) are probably the biggest "botnets" out there, all "legal".
Basically we automate multiple installers and decline toolbars just like you would.
Users range from the nontechnical to NASA. We even have a huge blind user base because these installers are frequently hell to navigate with a screenreader.
We make money selling a Pro version with extra features to businesses and school IT departments. It works well and aligns us nicely with our users' interests.
Ninite is great and has saved me time in the past. What exactly does this have to do with the article? Are you implying that since Y Combinator funded non-junk applications that it's okay to now fund junk applications?
I'm one of those blind users who absolutely love Ninite. Have you ever considered managing the postinstall, too? I envisioned something which would monitor the %appdata% path where any user-specific data goes, as well as maybe the registry. Any changes get synced back to my shiny new Ninite account to be incorporated into the next install. Clearly this would take a bit of work, but since you're already imposing a selection process on your apps, and a majority of them are already well-behaved in terms of how they manage their data, it doesn't seem impractical.
Ninite is generally the first thing that I run on a new Windows install. Pulling in my data feels like a natural part of this, and if you could get some kind of reasonable implementation worked out -- a background service syncing %appdata% regularly, a simple merge model which simply picks a winner instead of trying to reconcile the changes, etc, at first blush it seems quite workable.
Just wanted to add my thanks for a great product. We are a pro license holder where I work, I believe.
Not sure if this was your point, but I assume that you are using a lot of MSI and Windows API hooks, in which case this is a great example of the flexibility and integration options of Windows being leveraged for the good, as opposed to the crapware blight, which must be as frustrating for Microsoft as it is for us.
Does your proggy pull installers off your own site or those of the actual publishers? If it's former, it might've been nice if you put every .exe through a multi-engine virus scanner (like VirusTotal).
But the Babylon installer is from one of IM's advertizers, so it is possibly indicative of the types of pages that IM inserts in other installers. If nothing else, the poor reputation of Babylon is indicative of the types of software that IM wants to co-install.
In the end, we don't have much information about what IM adds to installers--I suppose they don't want it too well known. We'd need to find an app that uses their installer to get a screenshot of it. Their website does give us some clues: one image shows an offer that is made to look like a license agreement, thus duping people into clicking Agree. Another clue is how they repeat that they "manage all optimization and conversion to ensure highest earnings," which I take to mean their wording and choices are designed to trick people into installing items they didn't ask for.
This is an important point, something that wasn't completely apparent from patio's screenshot. Babylon is a client of InstallMonetizer. Of course, if they were involved in creating that installer, then I'd say they are partially responsible.
The crapware situation on Windows is horrible. I'm a Mac/Linux user but from time to time I have to power up my Windows VM.
A few days ago I wanted to install the Partition Magic trial on my Win XP VM. Having left Windows around 2005 I figured that typing "Partition Magic Win XP download" in Google would be helpful.
I got a handful of "reputable" download sources like CNet and the like. I went there and was bombarded by 20 (dramatization) different download buttons. I clicked the one that seemed most promising and somehow ended with a new Zip-Archiver installed ...
So I went back and found the Partition Magic installer. It was an installer with 'added value' that asked me three times to install some toolbar crap. I ended up with one of those toolbars installed because unchecking the box and clicking on 'next' obviously is not enough. You have to click the decline button instead of next.
Now I would consider myself computer literate and yet still I didn't manage to install a simple utility without littering my system with crapware. I can only imagine what hell the internet must be like to inexperienced (read: normal people) Windows users.
Why not? PG is about to make killing on AirBnB and co-founder is a well-known spammer from top-100 FBI list [1] that used our tax money to send his spam, and AirBnB been known for spam practices contacting people from Craigslist [2] to crank-start their startup with empty database.
Further, AFAIK his SocialCam is worth tons of money as well, mostly thanks to Facebook overspamming practices [3]
Truly surprised PG is not full time in spam business; he would make triple killing! :)
HN moderators: its OK to downvote if the truth feels uncomfortable to you.
EDIT: Since this is getting strongly upvoted; here are the links:
My friend just found this gem in their privacy policy
“We gather personally identifiable and may include information regarding your geo-location, ip address, operating system, language setting and information regarding whether recommended advertiser software has been accepted, downloaded, installed and any reason for failure installing. None of his information is personally identifiable.”
That's the lowest possible way to make money: Sneaking by and behind the back of your users.
If you feel you're entitled to more money, make me pay more for your product. Ask me to donate. Strip away features unless I go 'pro'.
But never ever install crap that isn't even related to your product.
Rule of thumb: If you wouldn't install that software on your families (like, the wider network - parents, siblings, grandparents) machines while supporting them, don't install it on MY machine either.
As a malware researcher, and the person who writes anti-virus definitions, I can proudly say that I wrote some rules to deal with Adware.InstallMonetizer just yesterday. Most other vendors seem to be detecting it as well.
This is the reason why I don't understand that people say that Linux is for "technical" users while Windows is for regular consumers.
In Linux it's easier to install something that in Windows.
E.g. to install a CD to MP3 rip program, in Archlinux all you do is:
# Search for some mp3 ripper program
pacman -Ss mp3 | grep rip
# Install one of them from the list that looked ok from the description
pacman -S ripperx
In Windows, the steps are:
Search the internet for rip mp3
Go through hundreds of spammy results
Try to identify one that isn't crapware
Download its installer
Run its installer
Be careful at every page of the installer that it isn't installing crap
How can they say Linux is harder than Windows? I don't get it.
These guys must be living in fear of Wire Fraud and Computer Fraud charges.
I'm less than half kidding. This is real destructive harm, so it's closer to the intent of the laws. The incredible churn rate is a pretty clear indication that end users dont want the software being installed. And here we have hundreds of thousands of systems compromised.
Selective enforcement of draconian laws is scary, really.
Ok, I think one thing I don't think people fully understand is how these companies actually make their money back.
Now in the past they will either try to sell you something or get you to fill in a CPA offer. Now 2012 has hit the IM/Internet Marketing industry hard mainly because people aren't spending money as much as they used to. Like I mentioned in another comment, basically the whole CPA industry is going belly up and will continue to do so in 2013.
So how do these guys make money? Well I know the biggest craze is to make toolbars that actually control your Facebook/Twitter/Email accounts. I've already seen one made for chrome and the guy had put a whosamungus tracking code in there that had over 10k people online at the time I checked it.
The toolbar was capable of sending mass private messages, posting on your wall and inviting all your friends to events on Facebook. And the problem is, it's pretty tough for Facebook to block this since it looks legitimate as the actions are directly coming from the browser and not a shady 3rd party site.
Another tactic which is more common is to replace websites advertising code with their own. This means replacing Adsense ID's or completely changing the banner code all together. This is what Kim Dotcom will be doing when he launches his new Mega site this week.
They also alter Google results so they can either promote their own sites or sell traffic to advertisers for profit.
So to think they are 'only' tracking your IP/Mac address, think again...
One thing to keep in mind is that YC funds groups. If a team is funded to do one thing, then pivots to doing something else later, it's not like YC is going to de-fund you. (I don't know anything about this specific company)
This is also why the "unbundling" of Windows turned out so badly for consumers. Not having a decent mail app or video/photos app by default (like the Mac) means people have to navigate this crap to get the most basic things done.
We (f.lux) have a similar experience to VLC: tons of cloned installers and inbound emails for a free product.
The past public disparagement of Microsoft's business model and praise of FOSS and Apple, makes fodder for easy conspiracy theories.
Rather than a conspiracy, however, I suspect it is more likely just a case where YC doesn't give a fuck about further degrading the Windows ecosystem.
Next time someone complains here on HN about Microsoft's malfeasance in locking down Windows RT, remind them that they have enterprise customers who don't want to deal with shit like this.
Wow....I thought these kind of companies stay and operate from the darkest corners of the internet, just like those CPA networks where you get paid to SPAM the hell out of the internet. Frustrating that these are coming mainstream and Y Combinator has backed one of them.
Actually you would be surprised. The biggest advertiser in the CPA industry over the last few years closed their doors a couple of months ago. And now the EPC (earning's per click) are about 20% of what they used to be, so the majority of CPA networks are either going broke or shutting down for good. I imagine that the majority of them will be closing their doors this year as well which is kind of sad.
As of now, not 1 of my friends promoting CPA offers is making money, they've either got themselves a 9-5 or just chewing through their savings.
At 30c to $1.50 per install, these software companies are under a lot of pressure to make their money back and convert users. This would inevitably lead to some questionable practises which Install Monetizer can claim to be at arms length from.
Software I accidentally install, or am offered to install always leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth and reflects badly on the software I am originally trying to install.
There's a public company in Israel called Babylon whose business model is giving away a popular translator software in exchange for installing spyware. They're huge and are planning an American IPO this year. Some people here are saying that it's all a big stack of cards and investors are going to lose all their money, but the analysts are actually saying that it's a valid business model and the company is underpriced. I'm wondering who is right...
How is this business model of spying on your users different from Google's or Facebook's?
[+] [-] jbk|13 years ago|reply
They are liars, shady business, IP violators and are downright dangerous.
They have all those great offers for you, but they refuse to give any details as soon as you ask any question. More than half of them are "the biggest in the world" (sic). They lie about download numbers, about download size, about number of software actually installed and about their connexions. They even lie on the actual payback price.
If you refuse, they build special websites, copying yours, with your IP and trademark and register adwords with your name, in every way possible.
They also resell their solutions/websites to other people, using "Affiliate networks", so that once you take one down, 20 appear. And the guy who you took down had no idea who you were or what the software was...
They also have deals with download.com/softopedia/softonic to change/rewrap your installer, without your agreement, often violating your license; or they give back money to those websites, so they are ranked higher than normal other downloads.
And of course, open source software are never respected.
I believe OP is very polite: There are no good reasons to not shame them publicly.
[+] [-] patio11|13 years ago|reply
So I thought I'd try, you know, installing something.
Make your own call:
http://images1.bingocardcreator.com/blog-images/hn/its-not-a...
[+] [-] radley|13 years ago|reply
Sounds like very bad news:
https://www.google.com/search?q=babylon+browser
[+] [-] swies|13 years ago|reply
The wording on that choice is incredible too.
[+] [-] patio11|13 years ago|reply
Some folks mentioned that this could be misleading, so to clarify: my research methodology, to the extent it can be called that, was a) open up the IM website, b) take a look at their advertiser partner wall (they don't have a developer partner wall, so I wasn't able to view the end-user experience directly), c) Google the first name that popped out: [babylon translation software], d) clicked the first link and downloaded, e) clicked past the first screen, which let me override my system default of Japanese such that y'all would be able to read the rest of the installer, where industry experience suggested to me that the action would be.
Sorry if I gave folks the impression that this was the InstallMonetizer application -- the impression I was trying to leave was "This is the core line of business for one of their marquis advertisers."
[+] [-] dudurocha|13 years ago|reply
Not this time, though...
[+] [-] minimax|13 years ago|reply
http://optilly.com/
http://www.installmonetizer.com/
Maybe they "pivoted" from a clever take on ad campaign management to toolbars as a way to increase revenues?
[+] [-] mikle|13 years ago|reply
Things like it and Conduit (another toolbar/malware company) are probably the biggest "botnets" out there, all "legal".
[+] [-] swies|13 years ago|reply
http://ninite.com
Basically we automate multiple installers and decline toolbars just like you would.
Users range from the nontechnical to NASA. We even have a huge blind user base because these installers are frequently hell to navigate with a screenreader.
We make money selling a Pro version with extra features to businesses and school IT departments. It works well and aligns us nicely with our users' interests.
[+] [-] edanm|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] angrycoder|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] watty|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ctoth|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Jamiecon|13 years ago|reply
Not sure if this was your point, but I assume that you are using a lot of MSI and Windows API hooks, in which case this is a great example of the flexibility and integration options of Windows being leveraged for the good, as opposed to the crapware blight, which must be as frustrating for Microsoft as it is for us.
[+] [-] joelthelion|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jstclair|13 years ago|reply
Upon first reading, it sounded like "to junk like ninite"
Great stuff!
[+] [-] huhtenberg|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cousin_it|13 years ago|reply
So even on a platform that's opened up to applications, the threat of crapware can create a business case for a curated third-party app store :-)
[+] [-] rdl|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Shorel|13 years ago|reply
Let me install an older version of uTorrent.
Let me install Steam in another location, not default.
Current ninite installs all I need except those two.
[+] [-] sharjeel|13 years ago|reply
Could you please elaborate how exactly do you automate the installers? Do you modify the applications being installed?
[+] [-] redthrowaway|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pg|13 years ago|reply
FWIW, the install window Patrick overlaid on top of InstallMonetizer's site in that screenshot is not actually InstallMonetizer.
[+] [-] 205guy|13 years ago|reply
In the end, we don't have much information about what IM adds to installers--I suppose they don't want it too well known. We'd need to find an app that uses their installer to get a screenshot of it. Their website does give us some clues: one image shows an offer that is made to look like a license agreement, thus duping people into clicking Agree. Another clue is how they repeat that they "manage all optimization and conversion to ensure highest earnings," which I take to mean their wording and choices are designed to trick people into installing items they didn't ask for.
PS: installmonetizer.com website is down for now
[+] [-] w1ntermute|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] redthrowaway|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] withinrafael|13 years ago|reply
http://www.withinwindows.com/share/2013-01-180322131210.png
[+] [-] gus_massa|13 years ago|reply
Norton is well known to have a preinstalled version in new computers that it's almost impossible to uninstall. I don't have a screenshot, but there is one in these articles: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/can-microsoft-cure-pc-makers-... http://hothardware.com/printarticle.aspx?articleid=1731
(Perhaps the version that they install trough InstallMonetizer is more user friendly, but I'm at least a little afraid to try it.)
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] kybernetyk|13 years ago|reply
A few days ago I wanted to install the Partition Magic trial on my Win XP VM. Having left Windows around 2005 I figured that typing "Partition Magic Win XP download" in Google would be helpful.
I got a handful of "reputable" download sources like CNet and the like. I went there and was bombarded by 20 (dramatization) different download buttons. I clicked the one that seemed most promising and somehow ended with a new Zip-Archiver installed ...
So I went back and found the Partition Magic installer. It was an installer with 'added value' that asked me three times to install some toolbar crap. I ended up with one of those toolbars installed because unchecking the box and clicking on 'next' obviously is not enough. You have to click the decline button instead of next.
Now I would consider myself computer literate and yet still I didn't manage to install a simple utility without littering my system with crapware. I can only imagine what hell the internet must be like to inexperienced (read: normal people) Windows users.
[+] [-] joering2|13 years ago|reply
Further, AFAIK his SocialCam is worth tons of money as well, mostly thanks to Facebook overspamming practices [3]
Truly surprised PG is not full time in spam business; he would make triple killing! :)
HN moderators: its OK to downvote if the truth feels uncomfortable to you.
EDIT: Since this is getting strongly upvoted; here are the links:
[1] http://gawker.com/5853754/the-seedy-spammy-past-of-airbnbs-c...
[2] http://www.tnooz.com/2011/06/01/news/airbnb-admits-rogue-sal...
[3] http://www.pcmike.com/what-im-thinkin/beware-of-socialcam
[+] [-] longzheng|13 years ago|reply
“We gather personally identifiable and may include information regarding your geo-location, ip address, operating system, language setting and information regarding whether recommended advertiser software has been accepted, downloaded, installed and any reason for failure installing. None of his information is personally identifiable.”
[+] [-] darklajid|13 years ago|reply
If you feel you're entitled to more money, make me pay more for your product. Ask me to donate. Strip away features unless I go 'pro'.
But never ever install crap that isn't even related to your product.
Rule of thumb: If you wouldn't install that software on your families (like, the wider network - parents, siblings, grandparents) machines while supporting them, don't install it on MY machine either.
[+] [-] jgmmo|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Aardwolf|13 years ago|reply
In Linux it's easier to install something that in Windows.
E.g. to install a CD to MP3 rip program, in Archlinux all you do is:
In Windows, the steps are: How can they say Linux is harder than Windows? I don't get it.[+] [-] paulsutter|13 years ago|reply
I'm less than half kidding. This is real destructive harm, so it's closer to the intent of the laws. The incredible churn rate is a pretty clear indication that end users dont want the software being installed. And here we have hundreds of thousands of systems compromised.
Selective enforcement of draconian laws is scary, really.
[+] [-] Matsta|13 years ago|reply
Now in the past they will either try to sell you something or get you to fill in a CPA offer. Now 2012 has hit the IM/Internet Marketing industry hard mainly because people aren't spending money as much as they used to. Like I mentioned in another comment, basically the whole CPA industry is going belly up and will continue to do so in 2013.
So how do these guys make money? Well I know the biggest craze is to make toolbars that actually control your Facebook/Twitter/Email accounts. I've already seen one made for chrome and the guy had put a whosamungus tracking code in there that had over 10k people online at the time I checked it.
The toolbar was capable of sending mass private messages, posting on your wall and inviting all your friends to events on Facebook. And the problem is, it's pretty tough for Facebook to block this since it looks legitimate as the actions are directly coming from the browser and not a shady 3rd party site.
Another tactic which is more common is to replace websites advertising code with their own. This means replacing Adsense ID's or completely changing the banner code all together. This is what Kim Dotcom will be doing when he launches his new Mega site this week.
They also alter Google results so they can either promote their own sites or sell traffic to advertisers for profit.
So to think they are 'only' tracking your IP/Mac address, think again...
[+] [-] simias|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dhimes|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] edandersen|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rdl|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] herf|13 years ago|reply
We (f.lux) have a similar experience to VLC: tons of cloned installers and inbound emails for a free product.
[+] [-] brudgers|13 years ago|reply
Rather than a conspiracy, however, I suspect it is more likely just a case where YC doesn't give a fuck about further degrading the Windows ecosystem.
Next time someone complains here on HN about Microsoft's malfeasance in locking down Windows RT, remind them that they have enterprise customers who don't want to deal with shit like this.
[+] [-] chinmoy|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Matsta|13 years ago|reply
As of now, not 1 of my friends promoting CPA offers is making money, they've either got themselves a 9-5 or just chewing through their savings.
[+] [-] gshubert17|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] edandersen|13 years ago|reply
Working to destroy his own platform. Classy.
[+] [-] TomGullen|13 years ago|reply
Software I accidentally install, or am offered to install always leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth and reflects badly on the software I am originally trying to install.
[+] [-] rrrrtttt|13 years ago|reply
How is this business model of spying on your users different from Google's or Facebook's?
[+] [-] joelthelion|13 years ago|reply