I have lost three close friends in the past three months to depression. Their deaths were so similar it was shocking; they were all among the most brilliant people I had known, and all had been suffering from depression almost their entire lives.
At the funeral of the one who was closest to me, another girl told a story of how on one day when his depression was particularly bad, he boasted in his great success for the day: Getting out of bed to brush his teeth.
Bear in mind this was a kid who spoke Russian and Arabic fluently, who loved the arts, was incredible at chess, was a great musician, and took Calculus BC in 9th grade. Absolutely brilliant. He was a fighter, he was stubborn, he was young, and some say he took his own life. I prefer to say that depression took his life.
Sorry for getting so personal, but I simply can't take any of the comments that say "just get over it." Depression is as real and as disabling as being paralyzed; it may not happen to everyone, but to say things like, "You need to be stronger" are no more appropriate to the depressed than they are to the paralyzed.
But most of all, if any of you are reading this who have depression, keep fighting. Recognize your brain lies to you, and no matter what it says there are many people who love you and it will get better.
What you say about 'getting out of bed to brush his teeth' is exactly what my friend, a psychiatrist, told another friend of mine about his illness: you have to value EACH and EVERYTHING you do, even if it is just getting up and having a shower.
Help, help, help, support, support, support, being able to talk to someone who just listens and does not say 'cheer up' because you CANNOT either cheer or up. Perceive that you are loved and you are counted upon even when you feel the opposite, and that you are not seen as a nuisance (which is what one thinks in that state).
Indeed, I've been saying this to myself in dozens of situations, not just depressive moods. If you actually believe it when you say it, it's like a sort of mantra that can replace any pill! ...but unfortunately people suffering from clinical depression can't get themselves into the "saying it and believing it mode".
>no matter what it says there are many people who love you
I hear this platitude all the time and I don't think that it's constructive. Disconnectedness and depression go hand in hand, in my experience. You may be blessed to have many people who love you, but a decent portion of the human population objectively doesn't, and can recognize it. So saying such a thing to a depressed person seems to run a high risk of rubbing their loneliness in their face.
> Sorry for getting so personal, but I simply can't take any of the comments that say "just get over it." Depression is as real and as disabling as being paralyzed; it may not happen to everyone, but to say things like, "You need to be stronger" are no more appropriate to the depressed than they are to the paralyzed.
The difference is that it is not always possible to talk someone out of paralysis, but I'd like to think it is possible to talk some people out of depression. So I'd prefer to think of calls to "be stronger" as an attempt at remedying someone's health problems, and not a judgement on their character.
I'll back right off claiming that "be stronger" is an effective remedy, of course.
In terms of arguing for a more sensitive language, there is a call (citation needed) to avoid the phrase "commit suicide" which implies that suicide is still a crime that one "commits."
Thank you for re-emphasizing this. I believe it is the single most important bit of knowledge we can have about depression.
My wife has been struggling with depression on and off for years, and it always frustrates me how she in the depressed periods seemingly belittles and obliterates all the good things that happen around her, while all inconveniences and imperfections, big or small, are considered capital P Problems.
I didn't know much about depression to start with, but it was pretty apparent that this imbalanced outlook was keeping her depression going and making it worse.
If we overslept one day and one of the kids missed the first class at school (for the first time in over a year), she conceives this a significant failure, the teacher will be giving her Looks from now on, and if it happens just fifteen more times this year we are in risk of the child being kicked out of school. While in my view, I think the teacher doesn't care if it happens once, but rather is very happy with us for generally sending a happy and well-dressed child to school, who generally has her homework in order and has been taught that both reading and learning are fun.
So I try to point out the positive things whenever I can, and explain how the negative things won't cause and real damage to us. It does help, but obviously she resists the "fake obnoxious rose-tinted world view" because she can clearly see how everything is wrong. The problem with this is that this endless list of lengthy explanations of everything that is wrong and how wrong it is, and the constant trivialization of the happy moments of the day, is slowly rubbing off on me.
For a long time I was oblivious to how this affected me, until last year after she had gotten better, I suddenly crashed. At nights, I would lie awake for hours - heart pounding - thinking about how I have not done anything useful or significant ever, and how everyone I loved would in the best case be dying painfully of liver failure in old age or something like that. I could barely watch the news, because every distant little tragedy would affect me personally and making me useless for the rest of the day. When my children were running out of bed because they forgot to give me good-night hugs I would sometimes feel absolutely nothing.
Fortunately, my wife is pretty sharp and noticed the problem even though I myself didn't even notice that anything was wrong. She told me that I showed signs of depression, and we decided to keep pressure down for a few months - less travelling, less ski trips, forget about redecorating the hallway, etc.
That helped, and the knowledge that my brain lies to me helped, even though it ran much deeper than I had imagined: my brain constructs both my thoughts, my reasoning, and my impressions. Having to use this same lying bastard brain to "fix" the brain is pretty damn tricky.
We're both pretty much recovered now, but I have two pieces of advice to give:
1. Depression is contagious. If a close loved one is suffering, be sure to constantly keep an eye on yourself.
2. While the brain lies, memory is pretty reliable. When you have difficulties dealing with something, try to remember how you used to react to this before.
We need to have sympathy. Not because we've diagnosed someone with a disease, but because they're a person.
Rates of depression are skyrocketing all over the developed world and whatever we're doing clearly isn't working. Personally, I think the most obvious issue is that a group of intelligent people have simply accepted the notion that what's relevant isn't someone's life circumstances, but some vague and baseless notion of "abnormal brain chemistry".
The idea of depression is a miserable cop-out, it's simply victim-blaming. We say that there is something wrong with their brains, rather than saying that there is something wrong with society. If someone is unhappy, we need to support them. It is a dismal failure of our humanity if we require the justification of medical necessity to show basic compassion.
Swartz had obvious reasons to be miserable and obvious reasons to want to kill himself. We failed him, we fucked up. He didn't die of a disease, he killed himself because he quite justifiably felt that the circumstances of his life were intolerable. We didn't do enough as a community to support him and protect him. He was a young and vulnerable man, bearing the wrath of a spiteful government. It's shameful for us to even consider for a moment that there might be something wrong with Swartz's brain, when our failures to care for him are so obvious.
If we need a scientific explanation for why we should care about each other, that's our problem. If we require a doctor's say-so to provide support for someone in difficulty, that's our disease.
> Personally, I think the most obvious issue is that a group of intelligent people have simply accepted the notion that what's relevant isn't someone's life circumstances, but some vague and baseless notion of "abnormal brain chemistry".
How about people who lead objectively wonderful lives, with good jobs and happy families, but still suffer from deep depression? The problem, if any, seems to be the other way round: that some people think only people will "bad" lives can suffer from depression, and everyone else should just "get over it." That's what seems wrong to me--and if identifying "abnormal brain chemistry" as a cause of depression helps people realise that anyone can be a victim then so be it.
Clearly if someone is suffering then external factors can make it so much worse, but that doesn't mean depression needs an external cause. Sometimes it just is.
I appreciate where you are coming from, but I think it is wrong to dismiss the chemistry component. Having had close family members diagnosed with depression (and having lost a friend to suicide), I found myself amazed at the degree to which chemicals in the body do play a role. I have seen two cases of dramatic behavior changes in people who had no change in external life experiences (and extraordinarily happy life circumstances at that with strong and deeply caring support networks), and medication immediately corrected the behavior changes.
I do not mean to discount your primary point - I agree that we all need to take care of each other, but all the caring in the world cant change brain chemistry, and sometimes that really is where the problem is.
This was posted in a HN comment not too long ago. It's a very good lecture that goes into both the biological and psychological aspects of depression and then manages to tie them together.
There are bell curves of pretty much every human characteristic. When someone is at the far end of the bell curve in a way that negatively effects their interaction with the majority of humans that are in the bulk of the bell curve, we call it a disease. In the case of depression, deviations from the norm in that characteristic have a chemical basis. It's not victim blaming to point this out.
That doesn't mean we don't need to be sensitive to people with circumstances that deviate from the norm. At the same time, our expectations of how we should treat people are calibrated to the typical responses of people in the bulk of that bell curve. It is regrettable but not necessarily wrong when those expectations conflict with the needs of someone who lies outside that region of normalcy. We owe everyone common decency, but we don't necessarily owe anyone uncommon decency.
Very spot on, on many points, however: there are demonstrable links between brain chemistry, genetics and depression. Hell, I inherit depression from both sides of my family, and drugs have helped me in the past. That being said, I'm very averse to medicating a problem that can be solved otherwise, and I agree that treating the causes rather than the symptoms is much more fruitful. My depression is in remission, but it's been a long hard road, and I still have a ways to go. Keeping busy in technical forums helps :)
I agree 99.9%, but just wanted to add one little thing.
Depression is not only a matter of society or brain chemistry. It's personal circumstances, too. About 1.25 years ago, I had a depressive breakdown that resulted in my leaving my job. Luckily, I came from a family that had always been very supportive and understanding, and through various means got treatment and changed my life to put myself back on a healthier, happier path. But... it's still a little scarring today, on the emotional front. I know that I'm fighting a defensive battle if I put myself in certain living situations.
Thing is, I was in a situation where many people would have thrived and been happy, not become depressed. It wasn't my brain chemistry, and it certainly wasn't a permanent illness. It was partially society, but most people would merely have been unhappy due to those societal factors, not depressed. It was social factors plus my burned-out personal state when it started (that I hadn't really recognized as still-burned-out) plus the social isolation I had put myself into by moving away from home and from my college town with nothing to ground me but a job plus the psychic pain of betraying several of my more important values and dreams.
Part of the problem with depression, though, is that it reduces your ability to think. I can introspect on what was going with me far better now than I could then.
I think most people who knew Aaron (even briefly, like me) sensed that he had some kind of emotional problem before any of this ever happened. I knew him in the Infogami days, pre-Reddit, and I ceased our friendship because of his negativity. He wasn't mean, but my main impression of him was "Smart… but negative." Cory Doctorow wrote about the harsh experience of Aaron's mentors, who were on the receiving end of his disappointment.
Yes, the whole prosecutorial situation was adverse. Yes, it was ridiculous. Yes, he could have accepted a 6 month plea bargain… he did things which are if not outright illegal, clearly were not really aboveboard, either.
Yes, I believe that a lot of what people call 'depression' has to do with circumstances[1] -- and you'd have to have been a lot closer to Aaron than me to know if there were circumstances making him miserable back then, or if it was an organic issue, or simply who he was, personality-wise.
Many people in worse situations don't kill themselves. Many people in lesser situations do.
None of that matters. The fact that Aaron took his own life is tragic. I was truly sorry to hear it, but… I wasn't very surprised.
It's simply a fact that things are more complex than they appear from the outside. People are more complex than they appear from the outside. And when you spend a lot of time with someone, sometimes you say "Oh, they're depressed," when really they have a lot of shitty people in their lives; and sometimes it's because they make choices that make their lives miserable; and sometimes it's because they have a real organic issue that has nothing to do with their daily lives or friends/family/job or personal choices.
You can't know, though, from the outside. Only they can know.
That's the fact of the matter.
None of this downplays the need for empathy. I think it increases it. But there's no point in saying "depression is chemical" or "depression is because of shitty circumstances" or "depression is a fault of choices." Unless it's you -- and probably even if it IS you -- you can't ever know which it is.
[1] NOT saying this is to do with Aaron, but just based on my experience of a lot of different people and reading a lot of research -- "circumstances" can include all the obvious external things we think of as circumstances, and also personal, inner circumstance, such as viewing one's self as someone who has to become a world savior or the next Bill Gates, presenting a false face to everyone (result? feeling completely isolated and unknown), the choice to embrace a victim mindset, self-pity, and sometimes "too high standards" which is masking a lack of empathy for fellow people as individuals.
Right now I am depressed. I feel terrible, and very, very guilty that I feel the way I do. I don't want to do anything, but I do want to do something to distract me away from my awful feeling of numbness. I worry about the future at times, and feel I'm at a dead end. I worry about my kids, and my wife, and my ageing parents. I'm sleeping constantly, but when I sleep my dreams are too vivid.
Despite it all, I'm a functioning human being. I function at work so I use this to distract myself. It's a fairly dull job at the moment while I try to do a Computer Science degree. But I've had to defer it due to family pressures and because of this blasted funk. I intended to study in my own time, especially mathematics, but I just can't get enough motivation to do it now. I was teaching myself JPA from scratch, and was making headway, that's gone out the window. I had some ideas for an ITSM app, but that's gone too. I feel like I haven't fulfilled my goals, and a failure.
I'm not a raging depressive, but a few weeks ago I couldn't stop crying. I feel like a burden so I'm trying to hide it all. It leaks out. So I sleep, and this reduces my ability to socialise. I then feel guilty, but nobody is judging me.
It's life I guess. I don't write this to ask for pity, but to explain what it's like, while it's happening. If I had to summarise my mental state, it's like a piece of me has died inside. Knowing that it will go away doesn't really help the feeling, but it gives me fortitude to get to the next day.
I hope this might give some insight to those who haven't felt this way before.
I recognise some of the symptoms you describe; feeling guilty and feeling shame for my shortcomings. When asked what I would like to do, like you I didn't want to do anything.
I used to be depressed. Here is my experience. My depression ended about 6 months ago and lasted for about 4 years. Before then I've been depressed on and off most of my life, sometimes as severely as this time, other times just as nearly constant anxiety and a general resignation to the feeling that my character is depressive.
After some time and a big change in my life, I tried to get help. At the start I was helped by seeing a psychologist (who practiced CBT) and by taking medication. Later I couldn't have therapy any more but remained on medication.
I slowly recovered, and I think it was because I was lucky to get on the right track. That track was to be honest about all, and not try to hide any, aspects about myself, to everybody. Also those aspects that may not be perceived as positive in the norms of society. This turned out to be quite a relief. I had decided that I'd do that no matter how much social pressure I would feel from thinking I'd be perceived as different or unaccepted. This had been a fear all my life, and still is. Situations come up quite frequently when I do this fearing total rejection, but I still do it. There's fear but no anxiety. I've come to realise that honesty is much more valuable, and perhaps the most valuable thing of all. Not only to me, but to others too.
Recently I got a tremendous boost and confirmation when I heard about some of the reasoning behind the development of something called Non-violent Communication, in which it is also touched upon depression. I can't say that NC would help others or even myself at the outset, but it made a lot of sense to me.
Thank you for your excellent explanation. There's no way I can comprehend what you're going through, but I have the utmost respect for you. Carry on, you're a champ.
It's not life. It's not just you. Others of us have been through this sort of thing.
The one thing I really want to kick you in the ass on is: get out of bed every fucking day, and you damn well spend time with your friends and family. It's the one thing I know of that can reliably make it feel better.
That's your life right there: friends and family. Your job will be gone someday, and you will achieve that degree someday. What's there for you right now is friends and family.
And if you ever want to talk, on Skype or instant-message or email, you damn well grab my contact info off my Hacker News profile. I've been through this before, over, under, around, through and after.
It's not easy, but it is simple. You just have to keep doing one positive thing after another, day after day. I promise.
Already this thread has replies that are trotting out the usual "depression is just sadness" or "CBT is nonsense".
The UK NHS National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (http://www.nice.org.uk/) gathers evidence of cost effectiveness (using quality adjusted life years) for various treatments.
They are pretty clear - CBT is excellent for mild depression; CBT and medication combined is more effective than either treatment alone for moderate to severe depression.
The Cochrane Collaboration (http://www.cochrane.org/) carefully investigates all the research, judges its quality, and publishes a meta analysis. They're pretty clear that CBT is effective.
A lot of uniformed people in this thread. You can't generalise as much as you all do.
You have to understand that people experience life in very different ways. I have experienced depression [0] but I can't speak for anybody else other than to say I know it's hard and keep on.
The real problem with depression is that everybody wants to wash their hands of it. "There are doctors that we can pass these sick people to. The system will sort everything out. That guy's a real downer, I hope he get's help... from somebody else..." I understand that it can be a mood-ruiner and people feel ashamed of it even by association but where is the strength in ignoring things? Compassion would truly be helpful and if you can give it, give it.
Go for CBT and you'll find it largely amounts to filling out forms on your mental state with tickboxes that don't really apply to you, while somebody tries to find out ways that your thinking is twisted. But you can be rational, successful, positive and still feel awful. Do you want to medicate the hell out of the high-functioning, positive guy that wants to change the world [1]? The term 'chemical imbalance' sometimes gets thrown around, and honestly it's probably wrong but there is a truth to it -- often the people that say they have a chemical imbalance are thinking quite rationally but facing terrible emotions that they know they shouldn't have to (from trauma, or an unhealthy subconscious.)
edit; If you're going to downvote me it would be nice if you would mention why. Do you actually have experience of any of this? I'm trying to give my honest experience on this, and I'm trying to point out that a guy like Aaron Swartz doesn't really fit the neat definitions required by most treatments; and that compassion beyond telling others to 'go to a doctor' is worthwhile.
> Go for CBT and you'll find it largely amounts to filling out forms on your mental state with tickboxes that don't really apply to you, while somebody tries to find out ways that your thinking is twisted.
This is a poor version of CBT. Any practitioner providing CBT like this is doing it wrong.
CBT is not about telling you that you are wrong or that your thinking is twisted. CBT is about exploring with you what your thinking is; what's happening to you with those thoughts; how strongly you feel those thoughts and emotions. CBT is about helping you understand why you feel the things that you feel, and why you think the things you think.
There can be a bit of writing when you begin - some people find it useful to have the process down in a concrete form. There doesn't have to be writing. And checking boxes is not a good approach.
Medication works for some people. But the serotonin hypothesis is controversial.
> Do you want to medicate the hell out of the high-functioning, positive guy that wants to change the world
(I didn't view the YouTube)
Medication can have side effects, and sometimes they're not very nice. But most SSRIs don't have the kind of effects that people would describe as "medicate the hell out of".
not all cases of depression can be attributed to unbalanced brain chemistry. sometimes the chemistry is ok, it's just your life is fucked. in this case depression is a normal reaction. you just can't remain all cheerful when you're drowning in shit. i don't think taking up meds or doing other things to cover it up is a good answer to such situations. with all its negative aspects depression is also a big reminder that something is off and must be fixed, it pushes you to make drastic changes because your regular routine doesn't quite help. sometimes it pushes you to a suicide which is sad but notice how many successful people with stellar careers and shiny popular products or art had been struggling with depression when they were failing at their job, when their dreams were crumbling, and no end to this horror was in sight. maybe it's a stretch but i'd say suffering from depression at some point in life is a normal thing for a maker. sometimes difficulties that you prepared yourself to are just greatly overshadowed by the actual state of affairs. that's to say marking all cases of depression as illness that needs to be treated is a wrong way to look at the problem. in my opinion at least. what helps is support and understanding, phrases like "pull your socks up" or "go get some pills" don't.
Please tell me we don't have depression Nazis who can only accept one narrow definition of depression. What I see described here is possible how most people experience depression. Or does only extreme depression count?
not all cases of depression can be attributed to unbalanced brain chemistry. sometimes the chemistry is ok, it's just your life is fucked. in this case depression is a normal reaction.
PTSD is also a normal reaction (to extreme circumstances) but it's maladaptive.
Still, I disagree with you that actual depression is a "normal reaction". Sadness and anger are normal emotions that normal people feel. Depression is something else.
People tend to conflated depressed mood, which is transient intense sadness, with the disease of depression, which is something else-- much longer lasting and more devastating.
This essay is making a logical fallacy. The implicit assumption is that if a person is in a state which falls under the category "illness" they deserve sympathy, while they might otherwise not.
Unfortunately, the essay does not define it's terms, nor does address why depression specifically deserves sympathy. Near as I can tell, it's just an application of the noncentral fallacy.
All I have to say is actually in the lead paragraph of the Wikipedia article:
"Sympathy is an extension of empathic concern, or the perception, understanding, and reaction to the distress or need of another human being. This empathic concern is driven by a switch in viewpoint, from a personal perspective to the perspective of another group or individual who is in need. Empathy and sympathy are often used interchangeably, but the two terms have distinct origins and meanings. Empathy refers to the understanding and sharing of a specific emotional state with another person. Sympathy does not require the sharing of the same emotional state. Instead, sympathy is a concern for the well-being of another. Although sympathy may begin with empathizing with the same emotion another person is feeling, sympathy can be extended to other emotional states."
The problem with depression is that it is hard to diagnose. If anything we are still in the dark ages of mental illness. If you have an infection we have a way to tell you what infection. Right now there is no way to test for depression.
Depression has different stages. Sometimes it's easy to get out of depression. I'm sure we all experience it at our "low" points during different stages of our lives. From failing a startup or death of a family member.
The depression that we can't get out of alone -- when we lose all hope for everyone -- that's the hardest to fight. Losing your will to live can quickly lead to suicide. And it's hard to tell from someone else's perspective that you're suicidal because you've pushed everyone away.
I think the only cure to the second form of depression is to practice a healthy state of mind everyday. Enjoy life and friends that are close to someone. Always share your problems with a close person (someone you truly trust). You must have the will to live. Giving up isn't the answer to all your problems because someone else will have to inherit your problems. Which isn't fair for that someone!
We need more compassion in general - not just for the outlier cases - but society in general can be a pretty mean entity.
I've been thinking lately how sad it is that so many of the younger hackers in my local scene (metalab.at) are not as familiar with John Lennons' World Peace movement as they should be. That light was snuffed out, but John (and Yoko, and many, many others) were really trying hard to get a world peace movement established, that would bring more love to the world.
If you turn on the TV today, you don't see much love. Most "comedies" are little more than 30-minutes-ridicule+laughtrack. In fact, remove the laugh-track from most TV shows and you have a banal hate festival.
I think depression being treated poorly, in general, by society is symptomatic of a larger maladay - which is that we humans simply don't trust our neighbors. We don't communicate freely and honestly with each other. You can't smile at a stranger in Vienna, for instance, just for the sake of the happiness - there always has to be the inference of an alternative, sinister, motive. Why is that?
Its because, fundamentally our cultural veigns - the mass communications networks of PR, Advertising, News, TV - don't profit from happiness and good times. They profit from the "black blood cell" of intrigue, controversy, synthesis/anti-synthesis. All we really see on TV is conflict this and that, and if there is some sort of consolation, its usually couched as "irony" or some such emotion.
But what of true Peace, where people are getting along great? There is a lot of that in the world, and it goes under-reported, and just not noticed by the majority. Its possible that depression is a social disease, and is contagious.
But, so is happiness.
We need more overt acknolwedgement of the good times, too, in my opinion - the truly good times, real progress. The aversion of the average citizen towards sharing good news and good times needs to be overcome.
Funny. For me, I get depressed and turned off when I see too much peace, happiness, and love crap in media. Maybe it's because I'm part of the generation who's grown skeptical of everything in media, but I definitely prefer the darker, sarcastic side of content. A John Lennon style love/peace-fest sounds like an absolute nightmare to me. No thanks.
While I agree that we need to be more sympathetic to those with depression, but I think it needs to extend way past just depression and on to all mental illness. Mental illnesses cause distorted thought patterns and it isn't the fault of the individual who has that mental illness, just as it isn't the fault of the Type 1 Diabetic that they have their illness.
Speaking from first hand experience, it can be overwhelming and lonely to suffer from mental illness. I have to hide my thoughts from others (including my own wife) because of fear that they won't understand and that they may think of me as a monster.
We have come a long way from where we used to be regarding mental illness (such as blaming poor parenting), but we still have a long ways to go.
A few years back when I quit smoking I spent two weeks with withdrawal symptoms the biggest one been depression. It hit me so harsh that I felt like I lost the earth under my feet. I’ve never felt anything similar and I can honestly say it was by far the worst period of my life. You wake up and you just don’t have the courage to do anything. Every single insecurity I had surfaced during those two weeks multiplied by ten.
The odd thing is that those two weeks were the most socializing ones I’ve ever spent. I felt like I wanted to be with other people 24/7 although it didn’t make any difference to my condition. And this imho is the biggest problem with depression, there are no visible signs that someone suffers from it. So if you don’t know if someone has it how can you help them.
Fortunately for me this hell lasted only a couple of weeks, until my body cope up with the lack of nicotine. I don’t know how I would manage to live with something like that for years or even decades. I have the outmost respect and sympathy for the ones living with depression.
Without trying to be smart ass I have the feeling that depression is a fundamental problem of lifestyle standards. The majority of our insecurities are imposed on us by some wicked version of how life should be. So instead of enjoying the little moments of happiness we tend to believe that happiness is a constant situation which happens to be out of our grasp and thus we hammer ourselves with the inability to get there. And then you end up with a dozen insecurities and everything seems so vain.
Part of the problem is how doctors, and especially psychiatrists, have approached treating depression.
There are many people who simply get down once in a while, in response to a particular event or series of events, the way most of us do at some point in our lives. If these people come across a psychiatrist, there's a decent chance they will end up on anti depressants when they likely just need some counseling and time. They should not be classified as depressed, maybe a transient mood disorder, but who knows if insurance would pay for that.
That takes away from people who truly suffer from clinical depression, a real medical condition which should be separately classified as such. If you throw them into the basket of people who are just down once in a while, you do them a great disservice, because society then looks at them as someone who just can't deal with issues and need a crutch in the form of medications. The people with real clinical depression are the ones who are at risk of committing suicide. Psychiatrists can figure out which is which usually, not always, but instead they treat everyone the same, and as a result less time is spent on those who need it the most (unless they end up getting hospitalized)
I agree that depression is an illness. I also agree that we need more sympathy and help for those who suffer it, and there needs to be less stigma surrounding it.
Having said that, we should not forget the victim's loved ones left behind, after his/her suicide to grieve and bury the victim. These people are victims too. Sometimes other lives are destroyed by an act of suicide. A young wife left to raise the kids alone. A mother forced to bury an only child; perhaps committed to a life of depression herself.
For the record, I have had my own battles with depression. I have had days I was unable to get out of bed. I have also had suicidal thoughts. But the thought of the pain I would inflict on my family, particularly my mom, would never allow me to truly consider it an option. I don't pretend to have felt the pain that would drive one to suicide, because there are degrees and experiences differ. But it helps to know where I'm coming from.
I think there needs to be more of a stigma surrounding suicide and more awareness for the pain of those that are left to grieve. If you're considering ending it all, please try to get help, and please think of the pain you will be inflicting on those you leave behind.
I am said to suffer depression myself, which BTW I would deny as I would say its "realism", but I really have an issue with it being described as an "illness".
It seems to be that this definition is more about giving depression PR parity with actual illnesses, rather than a correct label. Its like the public will accept an "illness" as real, but a psychological issues as not real. There for making the public see depression as "illness" helps get support. See what I mean?
From what I can make out, depression is a state of mind. Its a psychological thing. Ie, its a sort of loop people get themselves in to. That, to me, is not an illness. Not more so than arrogance, confidence or anger. Its an emotion. Is love an illness too? I realise that can be debated, but I don't think its helpful to redefine things for PR reasons. To me that cheapens it.
I'm not saying depression is there for less valid, clearly its as debilitating as what I would think of as real "illness", if not more so, but I do roll my eyes and switch off every time I hear the word "illness" appropriated for things that aren't really "illnesses". As I say, the lack of the word illness doesn't, to me, make it less serious. To me, using that word is not necessary, it just blurs the lines and can put people off caring. It make it sound exaggerated or a bit "me too".
Should add that I do understand that there are different types of depression. Perhaps using the single word depression to cover all cases is more the problem that the word "illness".
I'm by no means unsympathetic, I know how it can effect people. I've seen the results of suicide. Hell, my mum's other half had to cut the bloke down while the wife screamed in the street. But I worry that re-defining things puts the general population off.
No idea if these definitions are different each side of the Atlantic. Heh, no idea if its just me who thinks this either!!!
Let me preface this with: I have first hand experience of depression, I don't think it's just sadness and I'm absolutely sympathetic toward those who with depression.
But...
My thinking about mental illness changed a lot after reading a book called Crazy Like Us [1]. It doesn't talk about depression specifically - it's a collection of case studies on how different mental illnesses have been experienced/handled/treated by different societies around the world, and how western understandings of mental illness have generally displaced existing cultural understandings, not always for the better.
The major argument of the book is that the Western view of conditions such as depression as 'mental illness' has been counter-productive to attempts to de-stigmatize such conditions. The author also makes a convincing argument that it's also made recovery less likely for a lot of sufferers.
And to me that makes a lot of sense. Many other cultures view emotional suffering as a normal part of human life. In the West we view it as an unnatural state. We think that by detaching the condition from the sufferer, we're de-stigmatizing it, but the sufferer ends up more stigmatized because... now they are considered mentally ill. And they have less hope of their situation improving, because we're telling them that there is something biologically wrong with them.
If there is one thing I've learned about depression is that we suck at identifying it and we suck even more at "curing" it.
I'm not a doctor. But there is a huge difference between being sad and killing yourself. There are some people who think it is just "in their head" and to "shake it off". There have been lots of diseases in our history that people thought were normal until we made some crazy discovery that what was really causing it was some previously unknown agent.
Having experienced a couple major depressive episodes, I have no desire to ever go back, and I've built myself a sort of mental fortress to hopefully withstand whatever shocks I'll experience as I keep on living. I'm fortunate in that in both of my cases, I was able to emerge and put the depression behind me. I can't imagine chronically feeling the way I did.
Imagine being so emotionally hurt that it feels like physical pain, long after you were able to mentally process what initially upset you. Like a pain so chronic and awful that you're willing to do just about anything to make it stop. Imagine how frustrating it is to want to be over something and to think you are mentally past it, but the emotional side of your brain (i.e. most of it) just won't budge. And then on top of it, you feel guilty for being such a drag on people around you. And you also feel paranoid that even when you're not dumping on them, you're alienating them in some way. So you mostly just suffer in silence. It's terribly debilitating.
A friend of mine who undoubtedly would be reading HN today if he were still around evidently felt this way pretty much his entire life. I don't think I would have been able to take it either.
[+] [-] austenallred|13 years ago|reply
I have lost three close friends in the past three months to depression. Their deaths were so similar it was shocking; they were all among the most brilliant people I had known, and all had been suffering from depression almost their entire lives.
At the funeral of the one who was closest to me, another girl told a story of how on one day when his depression was particularly bad, he boasted in his great success for the day: Getting out of bed to brush his teeth.
Bear in mind this was a kid who spoke Russian and Arabic fluently, who loved the arts, was incredible at chess, was a great musician, and took Calculus BC in 9th grade. Absolutely brilliant. He was a fighter, he was stubborn, he was young, and some say he took his own life. I prefer to say that depression took his life.
Sorry for getting so personal, but I simply can't take any of the comments that say "just get over it." Depression is as real and as disabling as being paralyzed; it may not happen to everyone, but to say things like, "You need to be stronger" are no more appropriate to the depressed than they are to the paralyzed.
But most of all, if any of you are reading this who have depression, keep fighting. Recognize your brain lies to you, and no matter what it says there are many people who love you and it will get better.
[+] [-] pfortuny|13 years ago|reply
Help, help, help, support, support, support, being able to talk to someone who just listens and does not say 'cheer up' because you CANNOT either cheer or up. Perceive that you are loved and you are counted upon even when you feel the opposite, and that you are not seen as a nuisance (which is what one thinks in that state).
So hard to help, so much in need of it.
[+] [-] lifeisstillgood|13 years ago|reply
Thank you and I am sorry for your loss.
[+] [-] nnq|13 years ago|reply
Indeed, I've been saying this to myself in dozens of situations, not just depressive moods. If you actually believe it when you say it, it's like a sort of mantra that can replace any pill! ...but unfortunately people suffering from clinical depression can't get themselves into the "saying it and believing it mode".
[+] [-] gosu|13 years ago|reply
I hear this platitude all the time and I don't think that it's constructive. Disconnectedness and depression go hand in hand, in my experience. You may be blessed to have many people who love you, but a decent portion of the human population objectively doesn't, and can recognize it. So saying such a thing to a depressed person seems to run a high risk of rubbing their loneliness in their face.
[+] [-] andreasklinger|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Chattered|13 years ago|reply
The difference is that it is not always possible to talk someone out of paralysis, but I'd like to think it is possible to talk some people out of depression. So I'd prefer to think of calls to "be stronger" as an attempt at remedying someone's health problems, and not a judgement on their character.
I'll back right off claiming that "be stronger" is an effective remedy, of course.
In terms of arguing for a more sensitive language, there is a call (citation needed) to avoid the phrase "commit suicide" which implies that suicide is still a crime that one "commits."
[+] [-] throwaway_toby|13 years ago|reply
Thank you for re-emphasizing this. I believe it is the single most important bit of knowledge we can have about depression.
My wife has been struggling with depression on and off for years, and it always frustrates me how she in the depressed periods seemingly belittles and obliterates all the good things that happen around her, while all inconveniences and imperfections, big or small, are considered capital P Problems.
I didn't know much about depression to start with, but it was pretty apparent that this imbalanced outlook was keeping her depression going and making it worse.
If we overslept one day and one of the kids missed the first class at school (for the first time in over a year), she conceives this a significant failure, the teacher will be giving her Looks from now on, and if it happens just fifteen more times this year we are in risk of the child being kicked out of school. While in my view, I think the teacher doesn't care if it happens once, but rather is very happy with us for generally sending a happy and well-dressed child to school, who generally has her homework in order and has been taught that both reading and learning are fun.
So I try to point out the positive things whenever I can, and explain how the negative things won't cause and real damage to us. It does help, but obviously she resists the "fake obnoxious rose-tinted world view" because she can clearly see how everything is wrong. The problem with this is that this endless list of lengthy explanations of everything that is wrong and how wrong it is, and the constant trivialization of the happy moments of the day, is slowly rubbing off on me.
For a long time I was oblivious to how this affected me, until last year after she had gotten better, I suddenly crashed. At nights, I would lie awake for hours - heart pounding - thinking about how I have not done anything useful or significant ever, and how everyone I loved would in the best case be dying painfully of liver failure in old age or something like that. I could barely watch the news, because every distant little tragedy would affect me personally and making me useless for the rest of the day. When my children were running out of bed because they forgot to give me good-night hugs I would sometimes feel absolutely nothing.
Fortunately, my wife is pretty sharp and noticed the problem even though I myself didn't even notice that anything was wrong. She told me that I showed signs of depression, and we decided to keep pressure down for a few months - less travelling, less ski trips, forget about redecorating the hallway, etc.
That helped, and the knowledge that my brain lies to me helped, even though it ran much deeper than I had imagined: my brain constructs both my thoughts, my reasoning, and my impressions. Having to use this same lying bastard brain to "fix" the brain is pretty damn tricky.
We're both pretty much recovered now, but I have two pieces of advice to give:
1. Depression is contagious. If a close loved one is suffering, be sure to constantly keep an eye on yourself.
2. While the brain lies, memory is pretty reliable. When you have difficulties dealing with something, try to remember how you used to react to this before.
[+] [-] illuminate|13 years ago|reply
If that was possible in all cases, the concept of mental illness and chemical imbalances would not exist.
[+] [-] jdietrich|13 years ago|reply
We need to have sympathy. Not because we've diagnosed someone with a disease, but because they're a person.
Rates of depression are skyrocketing all over the developed world and whatever we're doing clearly isn't working. Personally, I think the most obvious issue is that a group of intelligent people have simply accepted the notion that what's relevant isn't someone's life circumstances, but some vague and baseless notion of "abnormal brain chemistry".
The idea of depression is a miserable cop-out, it's simply victim-blaming. We say that there is something wrong with their brains, rather than saying that there is something wrong with society. If someone is unhappy, we need to support them. It is a dismal failure of our humanity if we require the justification of medical necessity to show basic compassion.
Swartz had obvious reasons to be miserable and obvious reasons to want to kill himself. We failed him, we fucked up. He didn't die of a disease, he killed himself because he quite justifiably felt that the circumstances of his life were intolerable. We didn't do enough as a community to support him and protect him. He was a young and vulnerable man, bearing the wrath of a spiteful government. It's shameful for us to even consider for a moment that there might be something wrong with Swartz's brain, when our failures to care for him are so obvious.
If we need a scientific explanation for why we should care about each other, that's our problem. If we require a doctor's say-so to provide support for someone in difficulty, that's our disease.
[+] [-] Osmium|13 years ago|reply
How about people who lead objectively wonderful lives, with good jobs and happy families, but still suffer from deep depression? The problem, if any, seems to be the other way round: that some people think only people will "bad" lives can suffer from depression, and everyone else should just "get over it." That's what seems wrong to me--and if identifying "abnormal brain chemistry" as a cause of depression helps people realise that anyone can be a victim then so be it.
Clearly if someone is suffering then external factors can make it so much worse, but that doesn't mean depression needs an external cause. Sometimes it just is.
[+] [-] pge|13 years ago|reply
I do not mean to discount your primary point - I agree that we all need to take care of each other, but all the caring in the world cant change brain chemistry, and sometimes that really is where the problem is.
[+] [-] AlexandrB|13 years ago|reply
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc
> We say that there is something wrong with their brains, rather than saying that there is something wrong with society.
The real answer is probably a little bit from column A and a little bit from column B.
[+] [-] rayiner|13 years ago|reply
That doesn't mean we don't need to be sensitive to people with circumstances that deviate from the norm. At the same time, our expectations of how we should treat people are calibrated to the typical responses of people in the bulk of that bell curve. It is regrettable but not necessarily wrong when those expectations conflict with the needs of someone who lies outside that region of normalcy. We owe everyone common decency, but we don't necessarily owe anyone uncommon decency.
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] npsimons|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] KirinDave|13 years ago|reply
Neurologists disagree. So science says you're wrong.
> Swartz had obvious reasons to be miserable and obvious reasons to want to kill himself. We failed him, we fucked up.
Just because society has failed someone doesn't mean they also didn't have problems.
[+] [-] eli_gottlieb|13 years ago|reply
Depression is not only a matter of society or brain chemistry. It's personal circumstances, too. About 1.25 years ago, I had a depressive breakdown that resulted in my leaving my job. Luckily, I came from a family that had always been very supportive and understanding, and through various means got treatment and changed my life to put myself back on a healthier, happier path. But... it's still a little scarring today, on the emotional front. I know that I'm fighting a defensive battle if I put myself in certain living situations.
Thing is, I was in a situation where many people would have thrived and been happy, not become depressed. It wasn't my brain chemistry, and it certainly wasn't a permanent illness. It was partially society, but most people would merely have been unhappy due to those societal factors, not depressed. It was social factors plus my burned-out personal state when it started (that I hadn't really recognized as still-burned-out) plus the social isolation I had put myself into by moving away from home and from my college town with nothing to ground me but a job plus the psychic pain of betraying several of my more important values and dreams.
Part of the problem with depression, though, is that it reduces your ability to think. I can introspect on what was going with me far better now than I could then.
[+] [-] ahoyhere|13 years ago|reply
Yes, the whole prosecutorial situation was adverse. Yes, it was ridiculous. Yes, he could have accepted a 6 month plea bargain… he did things which are if not outright illegal, clearly were not really aboveboard, either.
Yes, I believe that a lot of what people call 'depression' has to do with circumstances[1] -- and you'd have to have been a lot closer to Aaron than me to know if there were circumstances making him miserable back then, or if it was an organic issue, or simply who he was, personality-wise.
Many people in worse situations don't kill themselves. Many people in lesser situations do.
None of that matters. The fact that Aaron took his own life is tragic. I was truly sorry to hear it, but… I wasn't very surprised.
It's simply a fact that things are more complex than they appear from the outside. People are more complex than they appear from the outside. And when you spend a lot of time with someone, sometimes you say "Oh, they're depressed," when really they have a lot of shitty people in their lives; and sometimes it's because they make choices that make their lives miserable; and sometimes it's because they have a real organic issue that has nothing to do with their daily lives or friends/family/job or personal choices.
You can't know, though, from the outside. Only they can know.
That's the fact of the matter.
None of this downplays the need for empathy. I think it increases it. But there's no point in saying "depression is chemical" or "depression is because of shitty circumstances" or "depression is a fault of choices." Unless it's you -- and probably even if it IS you -- you can't ever know which it is.
[1] NOT saying this is to do with Aaron, but just based on my experience of a lot of different people and reading a lot of research -- "circumstances" can include all the obvious external things we think of as circumstances, and also personal, inner circumstance, such as viewing one's self as someone who has to become a world savior or the next Bill Gates, presenting a false face to everyone (result? feeling completely isolated and unknown), the choice to embrace a victim mindset, self-pity, and sometimes "too high standards" which is masking a lack of empathy for fellow people as individuals.
[+] [-] chris_wot|13 years ago|reply
Despite it all, I'm a functioning human being. I function at work so I use this to distract myself. It's a fairly dull job at the moment while I try to do a Computer Science degree. But I've had to defer it due to family pressures and because of this blasted funk. I intended to study in my own time, especially mathematics, but I just can't get enough motivation to do it now. I was teaching myself JPA from scratch, and was making headway, that's gone out the window. I had some ideas for an ITSM app, but that's gone too. I feel like I haven't fulfilled my goals, and a failure.
I'm not a raging depressive, but a few weeks ago I couldn't stop crying. I feel like a burden so I'm trying to hide it all. It leaks out. So I sleep, and this reduces my ability to socialise. I then feel guilty, but nobody is judging me.
It's life I guess. I don't write this to ask for pity, but to explain what it's like, while it's happening. If I had to summarise my mental state, it's like a piece of me has died inside. Knowing that it will go away doesn't really help the feeling, but it gives me fortitude to get to the next day.
I hope this might give some insight to those who haven't felt this way before.
[+] [-] synecdoche|13 years ago|reply
I used to be depressed. Here is my experience. My depression ended about 6 months ago and lasted for about 4 years. Before then I've been depressed on and off most of my life, sometimes as severely as this time, other times just as nearly constant anxiety and a general resignation to the feeling that my character is depressive.
After some time and a big change in my life, I tried to get help. At the start I was helped by seeing a psychologist (who practiced CBT) and by taking medication. Later I couldn't have therapy any more but remained on medication.
I slowly recovered, and I think it was because I was lucky to get on the right track. That track was to be honest about all, and not try to hide any, aspects about myself, to everybody. Also those aspects that may not be perceived as positive in the norms of society. This turned out to be quite a relief. I had decided that I'd do that no matter how much social pressure I would feel from thinking I'd be perceived as different or unaccepted. This had been a fear all my life, and still is. Situations come up quite frequently when I do this fearing total rejection, but I still do it. There's fear but no anxiety. I've come to realise that honesty is much more valuable, and perhaps the most valuable thing of all. Not only to me, but to others too.
Recently I got a tremendous boost and confirmation when I heard about some of the reasoning behind the development of something called Non-violent Communication, in which it is also touched upon depression. I can't say that NC would help others or even myself at the outset, but it made a lot of sense to me.
[+] [-] austenallred|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Sakes|13 years ago|reply
If you'd like to talk about it further just let me know.
[+] [-] eli_gottlieb|13 years ago|reply
The one thing I really want to kick you in the ass on is: get out of bed every fucking day, and you damn well spend time with your friends and family. It's the one thing I know of that can reliably make it feel better.
That's your life right there: friends and family. Your job will be gone someday, and you will achieve that degree someday. What's there for you right now is friends and family.
And if you ever want to talk, on Skype or instant-message or email, you damn well grab my contact info off my Hacker News profile. I've been through this before, over, under, around, through and after.
It's not easy, but it is simple. You just have to keep doing one positive thing after another, day after day. I promise.
[+] [-] DanBC|13 years ago|reply
The UK NHS National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (http://www.nice.org.uk/) gathers evidence of cost effectiveness (using quality adjusted life years) for various treatments.
They are pretty clear - CBT is excellent for mild depression; CBT and medication combined is more effective than either treatment alone for moderate to severe depression.
The Cochrane Collaboration (http://www.cochrane.org/) carefully investigates all the research, judges its quality, and publishes a meta analysis. They're pretty clear that CBT is effective.
[+] [-] lhnz|13 years ago|reply
You have to understand that people experience life in very different ways. I have experienced depression [0] but I can't speak for anybody else other than to say I know it's hard and keep on.
The real problem with depression is that everybody wants to wash their hands of it. "There are doctors that we can pass these sick people to. The system will sort everything out. That guy's a real downer, I hope he get's help... from somebody else..." I understand that it can be a mood-ruiner and people feel ashamed of it even by association but where is the strength in ignoring things? Compassion would truly be helpful and if you can give it, give it.
Go for CBT and you'll find it largely amounts to filling out forms on your mental state with tickboxes that don't really apply to you, while somebody tries to find out ways that your thinking is twisted. But you can be rational, successful, positive and still feel awful. Do you want to medicate the hell out of the high-functioning, positive guy that wants to change the world [1]? The term 'chemical imbalance' sometimes gets thrown around, and honestly it's probably wrong but there is a truth to it -- often the people that say they have a chemical imbalance are thinking quite rationally but facing terrible emotions that they know they shouldn't have to (from trauma, or an unhealthy subconscious.)
[0] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5096568
[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgh2dFngFsg
edit; If you're going to downvote me it would be nice if you would mention why. Do you actually have experience of any of this? I'm trying to give my honest experience on this, and I'm trying to point out that a guy like Aaron Swartz doesn't really fit the neat definitions required by most treatments; and that compassion beyond telling others to 'go to a doctor' is worthwhile.
[+] [-] DanBC|13 years ago|reply
> Go for CBT and you'll find it largely amounts to filling out forms on your mental state with tickboxes that don't really apply to you, while somebody tries to find out ways that your thinking is twisted.
This is a poor version of CBT. Any practitioner providing CBT like this is doing it wrong.
CBT is not about telling you that you are wrong or that your thinking is twisted. CBT is about exploring with you what your thinking is; what's happening to you with those thoughts; how strongly you feel those thoughts and emotions. CBT is about helping you understand why you feel the things that you feel, and why you think the things you think.
There can be a bit of writing when you begin - some people find it useful to have the process down in a concrete form. There doesn't have to be writing. And checking boxes is not a good approach.
Medication works for some people. But the serotonin hypothesis is controversial.
> Do you want to medicate the hell out of the high-functioning, positive guy that wants to change the world
(I didn't view the YouTube)
Medication can have side effects, and sometimes they're not very nice. But most SSRIs don't have the kind of effects that people would describe as "medicate the hell out of".
[+] [-] jay-pinkman|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alan_cx|13 years ago|reply
Please tell me we don't have depression Nazis who can only accept one narrow definition of depression. What I see described here is possible how most people experience depression. Or does only extreme depression count?
[+] [-] michaelochurch|13 years ago|reply
PTSD is also a normal reaction (to extreme circumstances) but it's maladaptive.
Still, I disagree with you that actual depression is a "normal reaction". Sadness and anger are normal emotions that normal people feel. Depression is something else.
People tend to conflated depressed mood, which is transient intense sadness, with the disease of depression, which is something else-- much longer lasting and more devastating.
[+] [-] yummyfajitas|13 years ago|reply
Unfortunately, the essay does not define it's terms, nor does address why depression specifically deserves sympathy. Near as I can tell, it's just an application of the noncentral fallacy.
Overall, a pretty terrible essay.
More on the noncentral fallacy: http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_worst_argument_in_the_world
Noncentral fallacy specifically applied to medical conditions: http://lesswrong.com/domain/lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_th...
[+] [-] chris_wot|13 years ago|reply
"Sympathy is an extension of empathic concern, or the perception, understanding, and reaction to the distress or need of another human being. This empathic concern is driven by a switch in viewpoint, from a personal perspective to the perspective of another group or individual who is in need. Empathy and sympathy are often used interchangeably, but the two terms have distinct origins and meanings. Empathy refers to the understanding and sharing of a specific emotional state with another person. Sympathy does not require the sharing of the same emotional state. Instead, sympathy is a concern for the well-being of another. Although sympathy may begin with empathizing with the same emotion another person is feeling, sympathy can be extended to other emotional states."
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sympathy&oldid...
[+] [-] jtchang|13 years ago|reply
More scientific research is definitely needed.
[+] [-] zopticity|13 years ago|reply
The depression that we can't get out of alone -- when we lose all hope for everyone -- that's the hardest to fight. Losing your will to live can quickly lead to suicide. And it's hard to tell from someone else's perspective that you're suicidal because you've pushed everyone away.
I think the only cure to the second form of depression is to practice a healthy state of mind everyday. Enjoy life and friends that are close to someone. Always share your problems with a close person (someone you truly trust). You must have the will to live. Giving up isn't the answer to all your problems because someone else will have to inherit your problems. Which isn't fair for that someone!
[+] [-] primitur|13 years ago|reply
I've been thinking lately how sad it is that so many of the younger hackers in my local scene (metalab.at) are not as familiar with John Lennons' World Peace movement as they should be. That light was snuffed out, but John (and Yoko, and many, many others) were really trying hard to get a world peace movement established, that would bring more love to the world.
If you turn on the TV today, you don't see much love. Most "comedies" are little more than 30-minutes-ridicule+laughtrack. In fact, remove the laugh-track from most TV shows and you have a banal hate festival.
I think depression being treated poorly, in general, by society is symptomatic of a larger maladay - which is that we humans simply don't trust our neighbors. We don't communicate freely and honestly with each other. You can't smile at a stranger in Vienna, for instance, just for the sake of the happiness - there always has to be the inference of an alternative, sinister, motive. Why is that?
Its because, fundamentally our cultural veigns - the mass communications networks of PR, Advertising, News, TV - don't profit from happiness and good times. They profit from the "black blood cell" of intrigue, controversy, synthesis/anti-synthesis. All we really see on TV is conflict this and that, and if there is some sort of consolation, its usually couched as "irony" or some such emotion.
But what of true Peace, where people are getting along great? There is a lot of that in the world, and it goes under-reported, and just not noticed by the majority. Its possible that depression is a social disease, and is contagious.
But, so is happiness.
We need more overt acknolwedgement of the good times, too, in my opinion - the truly good times, real progress. The aversion of the average citizen towards sharing good news and good times needs to be overcome.
We miss you, John Lennon.
[+] [-] marknutter|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fjarlq|13 years ago|reply
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc
[+] [-] paganel|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wiredfool|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jetti|13 years ago|reply
Speaking from first hand experience, it can be overwhelming and lonely to suffer from mental illness. I have to hide my thoughts from others (including my own wife) because of fear that they won't understand and that they may think of me as a monster.
We have come a long way from where we used to be regarding mental illness (such as blaming poor parenting), but we still have a long ways to go.
[+] [-] elorant|13 years ago|reply
The odd thing is that those two weeks were the most socializing ones I’ve ever spent. I felt like I wanted to be with other people 24/7 although it didn’t make any difference to my condition. And this imho is the biggest problem with depression, there are no visible signs that someone suffers from it. So if you don’t know if someone has it how can you help them.
Fortunately for me this hell lasted only a couple of weeks, until my body cope up with the lack of nicotine. I don’t know how I would manage to live with something like that for years or even decades. I have the outmost respect and sympathy for the ones living with depression.
Without trying to be smart ass I have the feeling that depression is a fundamental problem of lifestyle standards. The majority of our insecurities are imposed on us by some wicked version of how life should be. So instead of enjoying the little moments of happiness we tend to believe that happiness is a constant situation which happens to be out of our grasp and thus we hammer ourselves with the inability to get there. And then you end up with a dozen insecurities and everything seems so vain.
[+] [-] dr_|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwin|13 years ago|reply
Having said that, we should not forget the victim's loved ones left behind, after his/her suicide to grieve and bury the victim. These people are victims too. Sometimes other lives are destroyed by an act of suicide. A young wife left to raise the kids alone. A mother forced to bury an only child; perhaps committed to a life of depression herself.
For the record, I have had my own battles with depression. I have had days I was unable to get out of bed. I have also had suicidal thoughts. But the thought of the pain I would inflict on my family, particularly my mom, would never allow me to truly consider it an option. I don't pretend to have felt the pain that would drive one to suicide, because there are degrees and experiences differ. But it helps to know where I'm coming from.
I think there needs to be more of a stigma surrounding suicide and more awareness for the pain of those that are left to grieve. If you're considering ending it all, please try to get help, and please think of the pain you will be inflicting on those you leave behind.
[+] [-] alan_cx|13 years ago|reply
It seems to be that this definition is more about giving depression PR parity with actual illnesses, rather than a correct label. Its like the public will accept an "illness" as real, but a psychological issues as not real. There for making the public see depression as "illness" helps get support. See what I mean?
From what I can make out, depression is a state of mind. Its a psychological thing. Ie, its a sort of loop people get themselves in to. That, to me, is not an illness. Not more so than arrogance, confidence or anger. Its an emotion. Is love an illness too? I realise that can be debated, but I don't think its helpful to redefine things for PR reasons. To me that cheapens it.
I'm not saying depression is there for less valid, clearly its as debilitating as what I would think of as real "illness", if not more so, but I do roll my eyes and switch off every time I hear the word "illness" appropriated for things that aren't really "illnesses". As I say, the lack of the word illness doesn't, to me, make it less serious. To me, using that word is not necessary, it just blurs the lines and can put people off caring. It make it sound exaggerated or a bit "me too".
Should add that I do understand that there are different types of depression. Perhaps using the single word depression to cover all cases is more the problem that the word "illness".
I'm by no means unsympathetic, I know how it can effect people. I've seen the results of suicide. Hell, my mum's other half had to cut the bloke down while the wife screamed in the street. But I worry that re-defining things puts the general population off.
No idea if these definitions are different each side of the Atlantic. Heh, no idea if its just me who thinks this either!!!
[+] [-] alexvay|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rowanseymour|13 years ago|reply
But...
My thinking about mental illness changed a lot after reading a book called Crazy Like Us [1]. It doesn't talk about depression specifically - it's a collection of case studies on how different mental illnesses have been experienced/handled/treated by different societies around the world, and how western understandings of mental illness have generally displaced existing cultural understandings, not always for the better.
The major argument of the book is that the Western view of conditions such as depression as 'mental illness' has been counter-productive to attempts to de-stigmatize such conditions. The author also makes a convincing argument that it's also made recovery less likely for a lot of sufferers.
And to me that makes a lot of sense. Many other cultures view emotional suffering as a normal part of human life. In the West we view it as an unnatural state. We think that by detaching the condition from the sufferer, we're de-stigmatizing it, but the sufferer ends up more stigmatized because... now they are considered mentally ill. And they have less hope of their situation improving, because we're telling them that there is something biologically wrong with them.
[1] http://www.amazon.com/Crazy-Like-Us-Globalization-American/d...
[+] [-] jtchang|13 years ago|reply
I'm not a doctor. But there is a huge difference between being sad and killing yourself. There are some people who think it is just "in their head" and to "shake it off". There have been lots of diseases in our history that people thought were normal until we made some crazy discovery that what was really causing it was some previously unknown agent.
[+] [-] acjohnson55|13 years ago|reply
Imagine being so emotionally hurt that it feels like physical pain, long after you were able to mentally process what initially upset you. Like a pain so chronic and awful that you're willing to do just about anything to make it stop. Imagine how frustrating it is to want to be over something and to think you are mentally past it, but the emotional side of your brain (i.e. most of it) just won't budge. And then on top of it, you feel guilty for being such a drag on people around you. And you also feel paranoid that even when you're not dumping on them, you're alienating them in some way. So you mostly just suffer in silence. It's terribly debilitating.
A friend of mine who undoubtedly would be reading HN today if he were still around evidently felt this way pretty much his entire life. I don't think I would have been able to take it either.