Take a sleep study. You may have obstructive sleep apnea.
I got it badly enough that sleeping for 14-15 hours daily did nothing for me. I didn't realise it at the time but I was on track to die, tired, at about 50.
Today I sleep with a little CPAP machine that keeps my throat open by pumping air into my mouth. It's changed my life enormously.
All extremely good advice, but the whole process of getting a CPAP machine drives me bonkers (at least in the US).
A CPAP machine is a couple hundred dollars [1] (certainly less than a thousand) and everyone I've ever spoken to about one has either instantly, the first night of using one had a tremendous dramatic improvement in their sleep or it was sort of 'meh'.
Given the costs and extremely minor risks (we're talking about a small fan that blows air into your mouth) you would think the diagnostic process would be to just give you a CPAP machine and see if it helped.
However you HAVE to go through a sleep study to get one, and you have to get a prescription to even buy one online. All of which means thousands and thousands of dollars of extra health care expense with very little to show for it.
I'd typically fall asleep at my desk around 3pm, or be fighting micro-sleep episodes. In any case, sitting there felt like torture. Never mind the effect on coding and debugging. Been doing that for decades. Tried ADHD remedies, etc. etc.
I started using a machine on a Friday, and noticed that although I was still a bit tired, I didn't take my usual 2-hour afternoon naps on the weekend. With the initial settings, I would still get a bit tired by mid-afternoon on a work-day, but it was an improvement.
After a second sleep-study and further calibration, I don't get tired at all in the afternoon. This is going to bed at 11:30 to 12:00 and waking up at 6:30 to 7:30.
It's hard to describe the practical effects of sleep-deprivation on programming effectiveness. It's like every programming problem just got a bit easier, and every tool just works a bit better. The difference between being slightly too dumb to do the job well, and being a monster is a small one.
Unanticipated benefits are that colds are not really tiring, and my alcohol tolerance is back to University levels (not sure if that's a win). On the flip side, I'm less inclined to drink alcohol, because I don't want to mess with my new mental powers.
A pulse oximeter can also be worn overnight to check for oxygen desaturation during the night from pauses in breathing.
Polysomnography (sleep test) is the gold standard, but O2 saturation is a good indicator as well.
An oximeter isn't a bad thing to own and can be had cheaply from Amazon. Sleep apnea can emerge with as little as 10% weight gain, acid reflux or allergies. If you really care about your sleep, heart and brain it doesn't hurt to check once in a while.
I think people need to be more proactive about this sort of thing. If you're uncomfortable, don't assume it's normal! See if there is something to it.
I used to have a lot of trouble breathing at night. I would sleep, but be exhausted in the morning. After college, I got surgery for a deviated septum. Then I started using a humidifier and Breathe-Right strips religiously at night. Now, I've got a baby that doesn't sleep through the night and I still wake up every morning quite refreshed. :)
Thanks. I've got #3 on your list, and working in front of a screen is unbearable most days. I've thought about doing a sleep study, this just reinforces it.
I have high-grade apnea and I use a CPAP for years (and yes, it changed my life for the better!). Just last week I started an acupuncture treatment in which the doctor applies very small electric shocks to a muscle that pulls the tongue a little, for 30 minutes. I was explained this is a bit like physiotherapy, but for the tongue and mouth. I did my first session last week and I already felt some improvement. I have 4 more sessions to go.
I cannot stop using the CPAP because my apnea index is pretty high, but it might work for someone with a mild level.
Note that even though I mentioned acupuncture, this is not a "new age" or alternative-style treatment. In my country (Brazil) acupuncture is actually regulated by the Health Ministry, and this treatment is accepted by the local medical community.
Another important thing to consider if you always feel tired, anemia. My wife was chronically anemic for years and no matter how much sleep she would get always felt tired. Started taking iron supplements and a week later felt perfectly fine.
I was having many of these problems but not too severe, a sleeping nasal clip has turned me around. It's just a little piece of plastic that slips up into the nose when I sleep that seems to keep my air passage open better.
my wife also says that I snore a lot less
(before that I was also sleeping on my side with my mouth open to get air resulting in lots of night drooling which was...messy)
Another good remedy is an oral appliance for sleep apnea. I use one to position my lower jaw forward while I sleep so I can breathe more easily. The appliance is also a lot easier to maintain than the CPAP (an occasional brushing will do it good). The downside is that it can cost a lot more than the CPAP, as in several thousand dollars.
Edit: I used to use CPAP, but I found fitting it on my face to get a good airtight seal was finicky. It was only after using the CPAP that my insurance let me consider the oral appliance.
Me too! I started using a CPAP machine about 2 years ago. It felt as though I instantly gained 10 IQ points overnight. I could focus deeply for longer. I felt better. And I didn't need to nap anymore. All for a few hundred bucks.
One thing is for sure: Reading stuff like that won't help me sleep any better.
I have no problems falling asleep, but I keep waking up after five and a half hours. For periods, I can easily go back to sleep, but when I worry about waking up, I often can not got back to sleep.
I've just started reading "The Happiness Trap"[1]. It's about accepting the ups and downs of life as normal, but at the same time it tells how to handle negative thoughts and feelings better (without getting rid of them). A former Buddhist monk recommended it to me, and my girlfriend (who is a psychologist) also liked it. The title kinda sucks though. Let's see if it helps.
I recently read a news article that said making roughly in the middle of a night's sleep is natural and you should just expect to doze off again rather than worry about it occurring.
I tend to wake up within the first 3 hours of falling asleep, and wake up 3-5 times over a 8 hour period. (When I had serious stress/anxiety issues, I'd wake up every night 1 hour after falling asleep).
I haven't found a good remedy other than eating well and relentless exercise.
"Has anyone noticed how people who do not sleep a lot "look old" - I mean with wrinkles, spots, etc."
Absolutely. But I will also add that the spots and the wrinkles can come from to much exposure to the sun which can also come from having the money to take vacations in the sun or have summer homes. Excess sun exposure really ages people.
I've also noticed that even small amounts of alcohol at night can have a serious effect on quality of sleep, even just a couple of beers - nowhere near enough to cause a hangover, so you wouldn't necessarily notice the effect it's having until you cut it out completely.
I read on the internet (thus potentially to be taken with a pinch of salt) that even having a single beer in the evening can cause a worsening of the second half of your sleep. (Which is a bit weird as one might imagine the alcohol would be gone from ones system by then.)
I've tried total abstinence from alcohol and it really makes an AMAZING difference to how I feel the next day. (But perhaps it's just a placebo effect, since having read that internet article... YMMV)
From my personal experiences, having a quality roommate (not in same bed) forces me to adopt a normal sleep schedule. I don't want my activities to wake my roommate up and turn his day bad, so I sleep shortly after my roommate goes to bed. But when I live alone, I procrastinate my sleep, I would rather watch videos than go to bed, it wouldn't disturb anyone anyways, and the chances of having an abnormal sleep schedule becomes the norm.
Perhaps there is some psychological/social aspects to sleeping and what you and I have described falls into this aspect.
I've found this to be true. I also find I sleep more soundly and feel much better in the morning if I drink a big glass of water before bed too sort of "tank up"; otherwise I end up waking several times throughout the night. Oh, also the amount of light in a room is huge for me, which I didn't realize until I moved and had thick curtains installed.
I had a period in my life when I was going sleep in the morning and waking up at 3PM, sometimes sleeping for more than 12 hours. It wasn't devastating so much to my physical health as to my mental health. Sleeping too long is as bad as sleeping too short, not to mention going sleep in the morning for several days in a row. Sleeping properly really is essential for good physical and mental health, don't sacrifice it just to 'do more'.
I used to sleep from 9:30 PM to 7:30 AM when I was in High School and I never had to study a single bit. I just remembered what I was taught in class without any trouble and aced most of my classes.
When I reached college, I got a late night job and started to sleep from 4 to 6 hours a day for about 2 years. My grades dropped badly; I couldn't remember what I was hearing in classes, I wasn't able to stay focus for as long and I ended up failing classes on my last semester.
It's probably the things that I fear the most from the lack of sleep, not being able to use my brain efficiently when I'm awake.
I remember reading about the fact that the first few hours of sleep are mostly there to physically rebuild the body, while the last hours of sleep are helping mostly with the memory. I don't have sources and considering the current article, I doubt it's as definite as what I read a while ago but might be interesting to read about more extensively.
"The findings also tie into research attempting to do away with sleep, such as by finding a drug that could eliminate the effects of sleep deprivation."
Every now and then I get upset with myself for sleeping too much, not utilizing all my time after work to work on side projects and learning new skills. I wish I could stay up till late AND wake up early or be able to do away with sleep altogether (and the need to eat)! How I wish I could do away with sleep!!
Recently after a few days of skimping on sleep, I had a few days where I let myself sleep enough and noticed how much more alert I felt during the day, I had forgotten that feeling! For now I have accepted that I need to make time for sleep. Side projects, new skills will just have to be done at a consistent even if a slow rate.
Just what I wanted to read after pulling two all nighters. So how do periods of no sleep followed by equal periods of very long sleep affect the body? And to what extent, if at all, are these changes reversible?
I was diagnosed with OSA, and chose to use a newish alternative to surgery or CPAP, the provent strip http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/07/14/sleep-apnea-fix/ I keep ripping it off in my sleep and can't tell if it's working. Ultimately, they said I would get used to it. You need a prescription and after getting used to it, you have to go in for a follow up sleep study so they can see if it actually works for you.
While I don't doubt the findings and won't argue the results, a group of 26 people is hardly a study. Give us the results of 260 or 2600 people, from different backgrounds.
As a single guy, I didn't realize how much sleep a parent loses until staying with my cousin and her newborns. It's like being a soldier constantly living on the front line.
Custom made ear plugs AND ear lube when you insert them. Custom ear plugs are under $100 can be made by any audiologist or ENT. Much better sound reduction than the ones that you buy that are throwaway. The ear lube by the way creates an additional sound barrier and adds to comfort as well.
Good "bucky" brand eyshades. White noise (a fan) going.
For those who've tried cpap machines and struggled with the masks, try the so-called "nasal pillows". They are a lot easier to get a good, consistent seal; are much smaller and so don't trigger that "omfg their's an alien on my face" freak out in the middle of the night; and they allow for more variety of sleeping positions.
Wow, all the years I didn't sleep like a rockstar. Used to be able to stay up 2, maybe 3 days without an ounce of caffeine and maybe a quick 15 minute nap here or there.
Looking back, how much of that time I really needed to spend awake, I don't know. You get more effective with age.
Well your genes are different to mine so it comes down to your body type.
Personally I'll go to bed at 1AM and naturally wake up at around 7:30AM. I usually fall asleep quite quickly and don't usually get woken up by any noise.
For you this might be a nightmare.
I know people that try and get into bed for 10:30PM. I tried that once. I was awake at 4:30AM. I basically need 6 hours sleep. More just doesn't work for me.
The problem is more that people with sleep issues don't ever feel like they have got a proper nights sleep. It can affect them deeply. You need to get to the root cause of the issue.
As an aside I went through most of my early life with sleep apnia caused by large tonsils. Luckily on a skiing holiday with some friends, we hit it off with a bunch of nurses, who heard very vocally from my friends about the nightmare that was sleeping in the same room as me and the choking noises I would make. 5 weeks later I had my tonsils removed as they were huge. It was life changing. I'd spent most of my early 20s half asleep.
A lot of people have mentioned sleep studies here - any idea on the process to obtain one in the US? Do I need to go to my general physician or can I call up a sleep study center?
I've been stressing out a lot about Uni recently, maybe getting a few hours sleep a night (last night I got an hour). Never have I felt worse in my life.
If there's no other way to reduce your workload, get a certificate of illness from a doctor and delay some of the work or examinations or whatever is stressing you out. Don't ruin your health. If exam preparation causes you so much stress that you can't sleep or focus anymore, please see a doctor, there's a good chance the doctor can help you with coping with the stress.
[+] [-] jacques_chester|13 years ago|reply
If you have:
* High blood pressure
* Depressive or angry episodes
* Wake up tired no matter how long you've slept
* Loud snoring
Take a sleep study. You may have obstructive sleep apnea.
I got it badly enough that sleeping for 14-15 hours daily did nothing for me. I didn't realise it at the time but I was on track to die, tired, at about 50.
Today I sleep with a little CPAP machine that keeps my throat open by pumping air into my mouth. It's changed my life enormously.
[+] [-] michaelbuckbee|13 years ago|reply
A CPAP machine is a couple hundred dollars [1] (certainly less than a thousand) and everyone I've ever spoken to about one has either instantly, the first night of using one had a tremendous dramatic improvement in their sleep or it was sort of 'meh'.
Given the costs and extremely minor risks (we're talking about a small fan that blows air into your mouth) you would think the diagnostic process would be to just give you a CPAP machine and see if it helped.
However you HAVE to go through a sleep study to get one, and you have to get a prescription to even buy one online. All of which means thousands and thousands of dollars of extra health care expense with very little to show for it.
1 - http://www.cpap.com/customize.php?PNum=2507&PAID=0
[+] [-] JabavuAdams|13 years ago|reply
I'd typically fall asleep at my desk around 3pm, or be fighting micro-sleep episodes. In any case, sitting there felt like torture. Never mind the effect on coding and debugging. Been doing that for decades. Tried ADHD remedies, etc. etc.
I started using a machine on a Friday, and noticed that although I was still a bit tired, I didn't take my usual 2-hour afternoon naps on the weekend. With the initial settings, I would still get a bit tired by mid-afternoon on a work-day, but it was an improvement.
After a second sleep-study and further calibration, I don't get tired at all in the afternoon. This is going to bed at 11:30 to 12:00 and waking up at 6:30 to 7:30.
It's hard to describe the practical effects of sleep-deprivation on programming effectiveness. It's like every programming problem just got a bit easier, and every tool just works a bit better. The difference between being slightly too dumb to do the job well, and being a monster is a small one.
Unanticipated benefits are that colds are not really tiring, and my alcohol tolerance is back to University levels (not sure if that's a win). On the flip side, I'm less inclined to drink alcohol, because I don't want to mess with my new mental powers.
[+] [-] willholloway|13 years ago|reply
Polysomnography (sleep test) is the gold standard, but O2 saturation is a good indicator as well.
An oximeter isn't a bad thing to own and can be had cheaply from Amazon. Sleep apnea can emerge with as little as 10% weight gain, acid reflux or allergies. If you really care about your sleep, heart and brain it doesn't hurt to check once in a while.
[+] [-] rayiner|13 years ago|reply
I used to have a lot of trouble breathing at night. I would sleep, but be exhausted in the morning. After college, I got surgery for a deviated septum. Then I started using a humidifier and Breathe-Right strips religiously at night. Now, I've got a baby that doesn't sleep through the night and I still wake up every morning quite refreshed. :)
[+] [-] patrickk|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] felipe|13 years ago|reply
I cannot stop using the CPAP because my apnea index is pretty high, but it might work for someone with a mild level.
Note that even though I mentioned acupuncture, this is not a "new age" or alternative-style treatment. In my country (Brazil) acupuncture is actually regulated by the Health Ministry, and this treatment is accepted by the local medical community.
[+] [-] cglace|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bane|13 years ago|reply
my wife also says that I snore a lot less
(before that I was also sleeping on my side with my mouth open to get air resulting in lots of night drooling which was...messy)
[+] [-] visionpol|13 years ago|reply
Edit: I used to use CPAP, but I found fitting it on my face to get a good airtight seal was finicky. It was only after using the CPAP that my insurance let me consider the oral appliance.
[+] [-] lee|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tome|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oyvindeh|13 years ago|reply
I have no problems falling asleep, but I keep waking up after five and a half hours. For periods, I can easily go back to sleep, but when I worry about waking up, I often can not got back to sleep.
I've just started reading "The Happiness Trap"[1]. It's about accepting the ups and downs of life as normal, but at the same time it tells how to handle negative thoughts and feelings better (without getting rid of them). A former Buddhist monk recommended it to me, and my girlfriend (who is a psychologist) also liked it. The title kinda sucks though. Let's see if it helps.
[1] http://www.amazon.com/The-Happiness-Trap-Struggling-Living/d...
[+] [-] ralph|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hkmurakami|13 years ago|reply
I haven't found a good remedy other than eating well and relentless exercise.
[+] [-] guylhem|13 years ago|reply
Look at investment bankers - their chronological age does not seem to match their physical appearance.
This article gives a potential explanation - bad sleep changes protein expression, but I'm curious about the visible outcomes.
Hopefully there are many sleep deprived founders, and well rested lifestyle entrepreneurs (sorry for the cliché!) reading this thread.
Do people tell you you look younger/older than what you are? And how old are you??
[+] [-] larrys|13 years ago|reply
Absolutely. But I will also add that the spots and the wrinkles can come from to much exposure to the sun which can also come from having the money to take vacations in the sun or have summer homes. Excess sun exposure really ages people.
[+] [-] droidist2|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] michaelgrafl|13 years ago|reply
I figured out that I sleep a lot better - especially when sharing a bed with her - when I omit drinking alcohol, even small amounts.
So maybe that's worth a try for people suffering from light sleep.
[+] [-] mogrim|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adrianmsmith|13 years ago|reply
I've tried total abstinence from alcohol and it really makes an AMAZING difference to how I feel the next day. (But perhaps it's just a placebo effect, since having read that internet article... YMMV)
[+] [-] littledot5566|13 years ago|reply
Perhaps there is some psychological/social aspects to sleeping and what you and I have described falls into this aspect.
[+] [-] jberryman|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pkorzeniewski|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kaivo|13 years ago|reply
When I reached college, I got a late night job and started to sleep from 4 to 6 hours a day for about 2 years. My grades dropped badly; I couldn't remember what I was hearing in classes, I wasn't able to stay focus for as long and I ended up failing classes on my last semester.
It's probably the things that I fear the most from the lack of sleep, not being able to use my brain efficiently when I'm awake.
I remember reading about the fact that the first few hours of sleep are mostly there to physically rebuild the body, while the last hours of sleep are helping mostly with the memory. I don't have sources and considering the current article, I doubt it's as definite as what I read a while ago but might be interesting to read about more extensively.
[+] [-] moondowner|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] septerr|13 years ago|reply
"The findings also tie into research attempting to do away with sleep, such as by finding a drug that could eliminate the effects of sleep deprivation."
Every now and then I get upset with myself for sleeping too much, not utilizing all my time after work to work on side projects and learning new skills. I wish I could stay up till late AND wake up early or be able to do away with sleep altogether (and the need to eat)! How I wish I could do away with sleep!!
Recently after a few days of skimping on sleep, I had a few days where I let myself sleep enough and noticed how much more alert I felt during the day, I had forgotten that feeling! For now I have accepted that I need to make time for sleep. Side projects, new skills will just have to be done at a consistent even if a slow rate.
[EDIT: fixed typos]
[+] [-] Xcelerate|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gdilla|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] KeyBoardG|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nakedrobot2|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] colmvp|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] larrys|13 years ago|reply
Custom made ear plugs AND ear lube when you insert them. Custom ear plugs are under $100 can be made by any audiologist or ENT. Much better sound reduction than the ones that you buy that are throwaway. The ear lube by the way creates an additional sound barrier and adds to comfort as well.
Good "bucky" brand eyshades. White noise (a fan) going.
[+] [-] johnm|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j45|13 years ago|reply
Looking back, how much of that time I really needed to spend awake, I don't know. You get more effective with age.
[+] [-] darxius|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] awjr|13 years ago|reply
Personally I'll go to bed at 1AM and naturally wake up at around 7:30AM. I usually fall asleep quite quickly and don't usually get woken up by any noise.
For you this might be a nightmare.
I know people that try and get into bed for 10:30PM. I tried that once. I was awake at 4:30AM. I basically need 6 hours sleep. More just doesn't work for me.
The problem is more that people with sleep issues don't ever feel like they have got a proper nights sleep. It can affect them deeply. You need to get to the root cause of the issue.
As an aside I went through most of my early life with sleep apnia caused by large tonsils. Luckily on a skiing holiday with some friends, we hit it off with a bunch of nurses, who heard very vocally from my friends about the nightmare that was sleeping in the same room as me and the choking noises I would make. 5 weeks later I had my tonsils removed as they were huge. It was life changing. I'd spent most of my early 20s half asleep.
[+] [-] gz5|13 years ago|reply
Have to start somewhere, so this study helps, but 6 hours versus 10 hours for small sample size is only a starting point.
[+] [-] oftenwrong|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] changdizzle|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] markprovan|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _stephan|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sev|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mz|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tycho|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lukevdp|13 years ago|reply