The Pi isn't the most modern board out there. It isn't the most powerful one or the smallest. It isn't the most open one... But, who cares?
The Pi is readily available from a number of distributors in a number of countries. It is cheap enough. It runs a plain linux distribution that can be easily installed on a plain SD card by anyone with half a brain. It has (documented) GPIO pins.
It serves its purpose just fine. People are curious about it (even if they are attracted by the media-center red herring), they buy it and they learn something.
Many of these people never used Linux, some never programmed anything. Maybe they just mess with it for a while and then put it away.
In the end, it's a net gain.
BTW, for those of you touting supposedly "better" alternatives. Why haven't these alternatives taken off?
And also, why hasn't Beta totally killed VHS... it was so much better...
The thing is, it was months between the Foundation launching the Pi and its basic, advertised functionality becoming even close to reliable. Originally, your SD card had to be carefully picked due to firmware bugs that made it incompatible with most of the newer cards on the market, ditto for your USB keyboard and mouse because it was incompatible with many of those too, and the network fell over all the time as well.
In fact, despite the Pi Foundation trying to blame the problems on power-hungry keyboards and people using the wrong power supplies and everything except the Pi itself, an outsider eventually figured out that the USB hardware and driver couldn't reliably talk to any low-speed USB devices like keyboards and mice. Communicating with anything the Pi Foundation didn't explicitly advertise, like webcams or Arduinos, was even more broken.
The VideoCore graphics processor on the Raspberry Pi in particular needs drivers that do not comply with Fedora's licensing guidelines. Let alone DFSG.
Go with an openwrt friendly router instead (the audio noise and desktop experience is substandard on the pi anyway)
Your critique is unfair and one-sided. As an example, I use the PI as an ethernet/web bridge for my microcontroller projects. Your "openwrt friendly router" won't necessarily have (documented!) GPIO pins I can access, a 3.3V-level UART, SPI or I2C.
With the Pi, it took me all of 5 minutes to hook up an MSP430-based device via UART, and another 10 minutes to get a perl script that talks to it via the (included) driver for the UART.
Anyone that tries to compare the Pi to the "android sticks out there" forgets that there are people for whom time is important. I'd much rather start with a popular, documented and well-supported (as in: downloadable distro image that supports all of the hardware) device than hack my way through an undocumented jungle of hardware/software. And I do know what I'm doing, I've written Linux drivers before. I t's just not something I want to do every time I start a new project.
I also think that in spite of the critique of the lack of openness, this is a breakthrough project. Broadcom has been famously secretive and closed. Getting anything from them without being a multi-million device maker and having an NDA has been a nightmare. Now I hope Broadcom will notice that lifting the veil a little brought in some money.
I found the Pi to be an excellent tool, I am thankful to its creators and I wish them all the best.
> Endless marketing for an obsolete surplus item (your
> last phone is likely to be more capable).
My phone indeed has more computing power than a Pi, but it also costs ten times as much. The attraction of a Pi is that it's an inexpensive computer.
> - doesn't work without proprietary blobs, ie. you are
> NOT allowed to learn how it works.
This is a frankly stupid thing to say. Having a small binary blob somewhere deep in the ROM doesn't prevent you from understanding the rest of the system.
> - doesn't make use of the hardware w/o additional
> license crippleware
The Pi includes optional features that depend on proprietary software. They're not required to use the Pi as intended, in its role as an inexpensive computer for students. Would you prefer that the patent-encumbered features simply be left out?
That link is discussing how the Pi is unsuitable for advanced low-level hardware hacking. While that's true, it's also irrelevant, because people who want to lay out their own FPGAs in VHDL are not the target audience. There are already many other products to serve that niche.
This link has nothing to do with the Pi. The Pi has optional features that require a license fee due to current patent laws. The Pi foundation is not making money on license fees.
> The VideoCore graphics processor on the Raspberry Pi
> in particular needs drivers that do not comply with
> Fedora's licensing guidelines. Let alone DFSG.
They do not need non-free drivers. I have a Pi, and it can get by just fine with entirely free drivers included in Debian. Once again, you're complaining that there are optional features (here, better OpenGL performance) that require proprietary software.
> Go with an openwrt friendly router instead (the audio
> noise and desktop experience is substandard on the pi
> anyway)
Are you trolling? How on earth is a router an acceptable replacement for a computer?
That's all well and good. You're right, it isn't ideal. But it is still miles ahead of many other popular edu oriented trainers and dev kits. Call it a very good start to a sea-change in educational hardware if you like.
A router isn't going to have audio and video out. Don't think it would have USB for input, pins for miscellaneous circuits that you want to connect to it. All it has is wired and wireless network connections, perhaps a serial port, right? Or am I missing something. I'd be really curious if there was a lot more you could do with them than I think.
I kind of get the impression that a lot of their sales went to the uber-geek crowd that already spends lots of money on gadgetry (such as myself). I'm sure it was still a learning tool for them, but whenever I see phrases like
> The Pi has been used as a tool to teach and learn programming
I can't help but think that the vast majority of buyers already knew a lot of what they were doing. But... I could be wrong.
Regardless, it was a good product and had wild success. I'm glad they made it.
I started off using them for robotics - they make excellent WiFi-enabled controllers for the robots we use on our university undergrad first-year programming course.
Having gained experience with them in that context, I introduced them in my 12-year old son's school. The kids love them - they're small enough and cheap enough we can let the kids take them home (if a few don't come back it doesn't matter). That makes all the differnce - you can't learn programming in a couple of hours a week at school, but if you can start there and take the same computer home, you're far more likely to put in the hours to get good.
And, at least as good as the hardware, is the community that's grown up in the last year. Loads of excellent educational material is now freely available, and aimed at school kids. So much easier to get the teachers on-side when you can point them at all this material.
It's an incredibly fun plaything for geeky people like me, but also educational. I'm learning Python, and I have mine always running and set up so I can ssh to it anywhere from my cellphone. I fire up emacs through ssh and work on my Python programs when I'm commuting by bus or train. I also have it set up with CLISP and Scheme for when I want to mess around with those.
But the funnest thing is that I used samba to mount the music directory on my desktop, so that I can ssh in and play music from my cellphone from anywhere (it's connected to the speakers and TV in my living room). I also use it to play videos from the video library on my desktop.
>I kind of get the impression that a lot of their sales went to the uber-geek crowd
What's wrong with that? Why does a teaching tool need to be a near-useless way too expensive hunk of shit that nobody would want because it has no utility outside a narrow range?
I've incorporated the Rpi into a course. The only thing inconvenient about its popularity is that they are sometimes out of stock. But, on the other hand, its sales volume probably helps keep the cost low; and the popularity means that there are many fun examples, and lots of free help developing curriculum and tutoring students.
I'm not at all an expert in electronics but I'm still curious what makes a Raspberry PI better than the $40 android USB sticks? Linux? Inputs? Is it just a matter of positioning? Just curious.
I've seen very mixed reviews of the Android USB sticks, especially at the low end (~$40 as you say, many are more like $70)... they seem unreliable. They also don't have quite the large community hacking on them that the RPi has.
Not an expert opinion, just the reason I went with the Pi personally.
Also, they run Linux by default, so you don't have to worry about installing it and whether it's going to work.
Primarily, hype and community (which is gained from hype). GPIO is also significant for many, and it may align better with some users requirements (eg, LAN, 2xUSB, RCA video). It is also the 0 thought solution; you can go out and start researching what USB stick you need, or just get a rPi.
So much misinformation in these replies; the USB sticks will tend to have hdmi, usb, microSd, much faster cpu, more memory, wifi, run full linux. IMO they make a better 'mini PC' but the Pi is better for hacking with other hardware.
The Pi does have to jump through more hoops (eg CE certification) to go on sale in the EU/US, so it's not 100% fair comparison from that angle.
It has ethernet, hdmi, usb, micro-usb for power, rca video out, a 3.5mm audio jack, GPIO pins, and a regular SD card slot. And it runs debian not just a special android distro, so it's perfect for hacking. You can use it as a router, or a server, or a media controller, or a really beefy micro-controller.
It's comparable to an arduino in a way, it lets you use a full power computer in a prototype embedded system or simple project easily.
For a lot of people I think the GPIO pins, the killer little GPU and ability to expand from the USB ports that differentiates it from the other low-cost ARM boards. The closest competitor I can think of is the BeagleBone which is great but costs more than twice for a comparable package.
It runs a complete Linux distribution (Debian), and it has a GPIO port, which you can connect to various other hardware. Android sticks are a slightly different market.
Interesting negativity here, mostly disappointment at wanting something that doesn't exist (an actual open source 3D subsystem), but some in performance issues.
The 'all up' RPi is about $100 (less monitor) which is not a bad price for a compact, self contained, programmable computer that is "mostly" open. Lest people forget the original IBM PC and APPLE II were also 'closed' in many ways.
So as a teaching tool, its pretty freakin' awesome. While I might have had someone bring up a cast off PC before, now you can have them using their own machine which is easy to carry in a back pack and transportable. Many folks, even of limited means, have access to a TV set that has a spare HDMI or composite video input. So basically it hits that target pretty well.
Given the sales volume there is some value to someone :-)
That said there are lots of things a simple, non-3D Linux box can do which are really useful. So while its not a 'game console' (although I suspect it could run MAME pretty nicely) its quite useful. And from a 'learn to program' / 'experiment with algorithms' point of view its pretty much lowest entry cost out there (caveat the 'free' discarded PC) so what's not to like?
I bought a RP last Christmas to use as a xbmc station with my new TV. I've been quite disappointed, the experience is sluggish, even when overclocked to eleven. Since I bought so much crap with it (power adapter, wireless adapter, power usb hub...), I'll try to recycle it into something else eventually but really all I needed was a 10 feet hdmi cable to plug my computer in.
I got my first RPi from Newark about five months ago, and it only took 3-4 business days to show up after I placed my order (and their customer service people called me on the phone to make sure I got it! Talk about high-touch, B2B). I just ordered another 512KB RPi from Adafruit, slightly more expensive, but better selection of cases / breakout cables / etc., and they shipped less than 12 hours after I placed the order...
I ordered mine three days after they were released and it arrived a little over nine months later from RS. My cousin ordered three months after I did from the same place and got his in a few weeks. It seems like some orders are slipping through the cracks.
Isn't RPi based on ~2008 technology? If they keep to that philosophy they won't have ARMv8 for a while. I'm sure ~$200 ARMv8 boards will be available but they won't benefit from RPi hype.
[+] [-] CrLf|13 years ago|reply
The Pi isn't the most modern board out there. It isn't the most powerful one or the smallest. It isn't the most open one... But, who cares?
The Pi is readily available from a number of distributors in a number of countries. It is cheap enough. It runs a plain linux distribution that can be easily installed on a plain SD card by anyone with half a brain. It has (documented) GPIO pins.
It serves its purpose just fine. People are curious about it (even if they are attracted by the media-center red herring), they buy it and they learn something.
Many of these people never used Linux, some never programmed anything. Maybe they just mess with it for a while and then put it away.
In the end, it's a net gain.
BTW, for those of you touting supposedly "better" alternatives. Why haven't these alternatives taken off?
And also, why hasn't Beta totally killed VHS... it was so much better...
[+] [-] makomk|13 years ago|reply
In fact, despite the Pi Foundation trying to blame the problems on power-hungry keyboards and people using the wrong power supplies and everything except the Pi itself, an outsider eventually figured out that the USB hardware and driver couldn't reliably talk to any low-speed USB devices like keyboards and mice. Communicating with anything the Pi Foundation didn't explicitly advertise, like webcams or Arduinos, was even more broken.
[+] [-] Create|13 years ago|reply
- doesn't work without proprietary blobs, ie. you are NOT allowed to learn how it works.
- doesn't make use of the hardware w/o additional license crippleware
for the fans to clear the fog:
http://whitequark.org/blog/2012/09/25/why-raspberry-pi-is-un...
http://boingboing.net/2010/09/19/intel-drm-a-crippled.html
The VideoCore graphics processor on the Raspberry Pi in particular needs drivers that do not comply with Fedora's licensing guidelines. Let alone DFSG.
Go with an openwrt friendly router instead (the audio noise and desktop experience is substandard on the pi anyway)
[+] [-] jwr|13 years ago|reply
With the Pi, it took me all of 5 minutes to hook up an MSP430-based device via UART, and another 10 minutes to get a perl script that talks to it via the (included) driver for the UART.
Anyone that tries to compare the Pi to the "android sticks out there" forgets that there are people for whom time is important. I'd much rather start with a popular, documented and well-supported (as in: downloadable distro image that supports all of the hardware) device than hack my way through an undocumented jungle of hardware/software. And I do know what I'm doing, I've written Linux drivers before. I t's just not something I want to do every time I start a new project.
I also think that in spite of the critique of the lack of openness, this is a breakthrough project. Broadcom has been famously secretive and closed. Getting anything from them without being a multi-million device maker and having an NDA has been a nightmare. Now I hope Broadcom will notice that lifting the veil a little brought in some money.
I found the Pi to be an excellent tool, I am thankful to its creators and I wish them all the best.
[+] [-] jmillikin|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fnordfnordfnord|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drivers99|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samstave|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] juan_juarez|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] B-Con|13 years ago|reply
> The Pi has been used as a tool to teach and learn programming
I can't help but think that the vast majority of buyers already knew a lot of what they were doing. But... I could be wrong.
Regardless, it was a good product and had wild success. I'm glad they made it.
[+] [-] mhandley|13 years ago|reply
Having gained experience with them in that context, I introduced them in my 12-year old son's school. The kids love them - they're small enough and cheap enough we can let the kids take them home (if a few don't come back it doesn't matter). That makes all the differnce - you can't learn programming in a couple of hours a week at school, but if you can start there and take the same computer home, you're far more likely to put in the hours to get good.
And, at least as good as the hardware, is the community that's grown up in the last year. Loads of excellent educational material is now freely available, and aimed at school kids. So much easier to get the teachers on-side when you can point them at all this material.
[+] [-] davidroberts|13 years ago|reply
But the funnest thing is that I used samba to mount the music directory on my desktop, so that I can ssh in and play music from my cellphone from anywhere (it's connected to the speakers and TV in my living room). I also use it to play videos from the video library on my desktop.
[+] [-] fnordfnordfnord|13 years ago|reply
What's wrong with that? Why does a teaching tool need to be a near-useless way too expensive hunk of shit that nobody would want because it has no utility outside a narrow range?
I've incorporated the Rpi into a course. The only thing inconvenient about its popularity is that they are sometimes out of stock. But, on the other hand, its sales volume probably helps keep the cost low; and the popularity means that there are many fun examples, and lots of free help developing curriculum and tutoring students.
[+] [-] greggman|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] graue|13 years ago|reply
Not an expert opinion, just the reason I went with the Pi personally.
Also, they run Linux by default, so you don't have to worry about installing it and whether it's going to work.
[+] [-] polshaw|13 years ago|reply
So much misinformation in these replies; the USB sticks will tend to have hdmi, usb, microSd, much faster cpu, more memory, wifi, run full linux. IMO they make a better 'mini PC' but the Pi is better for hacking with other hardware.
The Pi does have to jump through more hoops (eg CE certification) to go on sale in the EU/US, so it's not 100% fair comparison from that angle.
[+] [-] InclinedPlane|13 years ago|reply
It's comparable to an arduino in a way, it lets you use a full power computer in a prototype embedded system or simple project easily.
[+] [-] splitrocket|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] revdinosaur|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] StavrosK|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vinhboy|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChuckMcM|13 years ago|reply
The 'all up' RPi is about $100 (less monitor) which is not a bad price for a compact, self contained, programmable computer that is "mostly" open. Lest people forget the original IBM PC and APPLE II were also 'closed' in many ways.
So as a teaching tool, its pretty freakin' awesome. While I might have had someone bring up a cast off PC before, now you can have them using their own machine which is easy to carry in a back pack and transportable. Many folks, even of limited means, have access to a TV set that has a spare HDMI or composite video input. So basically it hits that target pretty well.
Given the sales volume there is some value to someone :-)
That said there are lots of things a simple, non-3D Linux box can do which are really useful. So while its not a 'game console' (although I suspect it could run MAME pretty nicely) its quite useful. And from a 'learn to program' / 'experiment with algorithms' point of view its pretty much lowest entry cost out there (caveat the 'free' discarded PC) so what's not to like?
[+] [-] Zarathust|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sordidfellow|13 years ago|reply
There's certainly a bias in the shipping thread, but you can find plenty of folks having issues!
http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=23
[+] [-] blacksmith_tb|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tehwebguy|13 years ago|reply
This is probably the 5th time I've seen someone post something similar but all of mine have arrived within a few days or weeks.
So far I've ordered from Newark/Element14 and MCM Electronics and I'm in the US.
[+] [-] freehunter|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] StavrosK|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] guiomie|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sordidfellow|13 years ago|reply
http://www.raspbmc.com/
[+] [-] mtgx|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wmf|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] weix|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] greggman|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ck2|13 years ago|reply
Get netflix working on it.
(it's not a cpu problem, it's a linux problem)
[+] [-] fnordfnordfnord|13 years ago|reply
Linux can play videos just fine. It's a coryright / DRM problem.
[+] [-] jlgreco|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] takluyver|13 years ago|reply