A traceroute to thepiratebay.se is kind of amusing.
From my home (Sweden), the packets seem to go to Frankfurt, then New York, take a link via an ip which reverses to intelsatone.net to a cambodgian ip (500ms latency right here), then reach the ip 175.45.177.217, assigned to Star Joint Venture Co Ltd. Who seem to be a legitimate North Korea internet provider (or, well, as legitimate as it gets, coming from North Korea). The rest of the traceroute doesn't ping back (edit: 6 hops, which could stay in NK, or lead you back anywhere in the world).
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the ICMP responses are forged - It seems disadvantageous for the site to have such a long path, since each hop has the potential for attack.
Apart from that /24, STAR JOINT VENTURE only advertises 175.45.176.0/22 (albeit as four /24, idiotically enough). What's kind of interesting is that this /22 is visible with a much shorter AS path:
The question is: Is is deliberate that the Chinese don't allow transit of the Pirate Bay /24 through their network? (As opposed to Intelsat, a Washington-based American company.)
This seems reasonably legit. AS131279 (Star Joint Venture Co Ltd) has (or had) a peering with the Piratpartie Norge (pirate party norway): http://bgp.he.net/AS131279#_peers
It could be bad labelling too. I'm not sure about the details of how it happened, but I used an ISP in UK who was assigning ranges officially located in Italy.
(BTW: that really broke google for a long time. google will revert your language to the automatically discovered one, even after you use their magic url that should prevent this)
I don't see any open ports on that host, do you? Even if it's just a load balancer, the connection would need to terminate on a routable IP somewhere...
This makes me upset. Its upsetting because while yes, information freedom is a very important topic and needs to happen, but it does not trump human freedom. I'm not sure if this is a straw man or not - but how can they justify working with an entity that has such a horrid human rights record?
Yes, definitely, we should not stand by while companies host their content in countries known to use torture to extract information, hold prisoners with out trial, hold prisoners with out charge, allow their leaders to execute citizens summarily, execute minors and the mentally retarded, incarcerate people at a rate higher than any other country on earth merely in order to serve as slave labour for the state and state sponsored corporations.
Even worse is many of the citizens of this 'republic' have been brainwashed by a compulsory education system that they actually live in a democratic republic.
Don't really know why or if they are doing this, but the PirateBay's primary purpose is to stay up.
If they are pushed to such extremes as to go to North Korea, then it's ultimately your fault, the citizen of a Western country, for allowing your government to take such drastic anti-copyright measures that ultimately lead to corruption and censorship.
Kind of ironic that Internet freedom will be increasingly achieved in our countries by befriending our enemies.
> but how can they justify working with an entity that has such a horrid human rights record?
As pointed out yesterday on the Bradley Manning discussion, the US is starting to get to the point where it can't credibly criticize other countries for their human rights abuses, given what goes on in this country.
I don't want this to turn into a discussion of whether the US is worse than North Korea, but both have abused - and continue to abuse - human rights in abysmal ways.
I think this can help you understand their mentality, PRQ, the hosting company behind TPB, have hosted pedophiles.
I don't know if they still do because I haven't kept track, but they did for sure host pedophile message boards in 2005-2006 where pedophiles discussed things like raising children for sex.
Why? I can only guess that it's because they believe in freedom of speech over everything else.
I don't even know how to approach the moral quandary of seeking asylum in a concentration camp. Am I supposed to be impressed by the Fresh Young DPRK? There is no opening of relations here, just PR. Have TPB truly been hunted to the darkest corners of the Earth?
In the end all this means to me is that I'm going to save the $65 that I was about to spend on a PB hoodie. Assuming TPB are paying for their NK servers, I'd rather not risking providing funds for lil' Kim's holocaust.
I agree. Comparing the right for free information to freedom of speech is debatable. But comparing it to freedom of individuality and the right of existence does not strike me funny at all. Joke or not.
Keep in mind that our news media reports only the facts that fit their story of "NK is evil" and don't report any facts to the contrary. I assure you without a doubt it's a lot better place than our media makes it seem. Sure, their undemocratic system of government is a bad one, it's a CVS system when the rest of the world has moved to Git, and they will be A LOT better off when they switch, but the place has a lot of good going for it, and the reports we see are almost always chosen not for their objective value but to support the one sided argument that our media has been telling for years.
To point to a specific example, yesterday I watched George Stephanopoulos interview Dennis Rodman after Rodman's NK trip and George made some comment about the human rights record and to back it up he mentioned that NK has 200,000 folks in prison camps. Based on that logic, the U.S. is 10x worse with 2.2 million people in prison right now.
NK has a bad system of government. Their human rights record leaves much to be desired. But so does the human rights record of every country on earth, including the US.
The Pirate Bay is not concerned with your judgment. The Pirate Bay is concerned with making socio-political statements and providing access to their site, seemingly in that order. Discomfort with the situation is exactly what they are going for.
It should make you uneasy that they have to go to North Korea to keep the site online. While they are not martyrs for an easy to grasp cause, and their definition of 'free speech' may fly in the face of yours, they are doing their absolute best to keep alive what they think is important. This has recently resulted in much irony. Irony that I'm sure they're proud of.
You should hate this. That's the point. This wasn't done so people could keep downloading movies illegally, this was done to make a statement, to get you to think. So please, ice your knee, and think.
Think about what? No sarcasm, genuinely unsure what you're suggesting we should think about, please can you explain what the statement they're making is and what we should be thinking about.
fale@machine:~$ tcptraceroute -f 128 -m 128 thepiratebay.se
Selected device venet0, address 5.9.249.8, port 40771 for outgoing packets
Tracing the path to thepiratebay.se (194.71.107.15) on TCP port 80 (www), 128 hops max
128 thepiratebay.org (194.71.107.15) [open] 51.673 ms 49.002 ms 47.187 ms
That server is in Germany, no way it's possible to have 50ms to NK. Also traditional traceroute has 500ms+ RTT.
They are faking/spoofing the ICMP responses.
They are also prepending their route advertisement with corresponding AS paths to further disguise it.
194.71.107.0/24 *[BGP/170] 02:10:36, MED 0, localpref 150, from 80.91.255.255
AS path: 2914 39138 22351 131279 51040 I
AS39138 is probably the real upstream provider of TBP. They peer with AS51040(TPB network) and TPB router prepends AS22351(Intelsat) and AS131279(North Korean ISP) into it's AS Path before advertising it to AS39138.
Well it's nice to know that "one of the most important movements in Sweden for freedom of speech, working against corruption and censorship" wouldn't let concerns over something as insignificant as totalitarianism deter them from "forming a special bond" with a state to distribute warez.
I expected more from HN than this knee-jerk support for TPB due to its self-promulgated association with "freedom of information." Freedom of information, in the specific context of The Pirate Bay, means denying content authors the freedom to choose channels of distribution for their work. It means repackaging content, giving it away "for free," while raking in advertising revenue. It means diverting money away from the entire chain of content creators (e.g., writers, actors, directors, extras, special effects artists), marketers, distributors, etc., and solely into the pockets of TPB's operators.
It's OK to support freedom of information, and also recognize TPB for what it really is.
(Shrug) The money TPB is "diverting" is money that the content industry refuses to accept from its would-be customers.
It's the industry's job to ask me what distribution channel I want to use, not dictate what channel they require me to use. When they figure that out, they'll start making money again.
If North Korea really is involved in this (and the traceroutes seem to indicate it is), let's turn the irony up a notch and turn the spotlight on a few North-Korea-critical torrents - now served through the very censor-happy country that is getting criticized:
It will be interesting to see how serious their new overlord is about that "freedom of speech thing". My guess is that sooner or later, some of those films will suddenly vanish from the site.
This is a pretty interesting bit of gamesmanship. In a single stroke it ties together what is perhaps the greatest threat to global stability today (PRK) and where is perhaps the most ridiculous non-threat to global stability (pirated movies) and sets them as equals.
By doing that, it illustrates just how ridiculous the current copyright situation is.
Of course the other way of looking at it is that the creators of TPB think that threats to their freedom to profit from placing advertisements around links to copyrighted material trump the threats to the freedom of the North Korean people. A lack of PR perspective so perverse it almost makes the RIAA and MPAA look like the good guys.
Did HN just turn stupid? I can only shake my head.
The idea that it would even be feasible for TPB to host in North Korea is ridiculous. The fact that they already have a history of pranks about their hosting should be a big clue.
Absolutely uncool. No matter what you think about current IP law - and let's face it, it's a bag of worms - getting into bed with North Korea is inexcusable. On top of everything else, and here "everything" means institutional murder and oppression, it kind of suggests a lack of morality on TPB's part.
I don't like it.
Putting the web's biggest P2P website in the hands of one of the most authoritative dictatorial regime - what could go wrong? Security issues anyone?
Seems fishy at best, and if true it is counter productive: it will not reflect well on TPB...
Same as with Gerard Depardieu. He/they made choice not to be in one kind of dictatorship so they escaped to other. So it seems like pretty subjective stuff (personally i think it's wrong), but it's their choice so who cares. Why do you care?
Here is what they think:
"This is truly an ironic situation. We have been fighting for a free world, and our opponents are mostly huge corporations from the United States of America, a place where freedom and freedom of speech is said to be held high. At the same time, companies from that country is chasing a competitor from other countries, bribing police and lawmakers, threatening political parties and physically hunting people from our crew. And to our help comes a government famous in our part of the world for locking people up for their thoughts and forbidding access to information."
Hosting a site already hated by US authorities in a country that the US considers to be an enemy is probably not the best idea. My guess is that a US Senator or Congressman is somewhere right now drafting a bill that would prohibit US internet providers from providing access to sites hosted in North Korea.
[+] [-] Wilya|13 years ago|reply
A traceroute to thepiratebay.se is kind of amusing.
From my home (Sweden), the packets seem to go to Frankfurt, then New York, take a link via an ip which reverses to intelsatone.net to a cambodgian ip (500ms latency right here), then reach the ip 175.45.177.217, assigned to Star Joint Venture Co Ltd. Who seem to be a legitimate North Korea internet provider (or, well, as legitimate as it gets, coming from North Korea). The rest of the traceroute doesn't ping back (edit: 6 hops, which could stay in NK, or lead you back anywhere in the world).
If it's a joke, it's a very elaborate one.
[+] [-] willscott|13 years ago|reply
http://www.thoughtcrime.org/software/fakeroute/ can be seen as previous work that it is practical to do something like this.
[+] [-] blumentopf|13 years ago|reply
... 2914 39138 22351 131279 51040
... [NTT America/ARIN] [rrbone/RIPE] [Intelsat/ARIN] [STAR JOINT VENTURE/APNIC] [The Pirate Bay/RIPE]
Apart from that /24, STAR JOINT VENTURE only advertises 175.45.176.0/22 (albeit as four /24, idiotically enough). What's kind of interesting is that this /22 is visible with a much shorter AS path:
... 3257 4837 131279
... [Tinet/RIPE] [China Netcom/APNIC] [STAR JOINT VENTURE/APNIC]
The question is: Is is deliberate that the Chinese don't allow transit of the Pirate Bay /24 through their network? (As opposed to Intelsat, a Washington-based American company.)
[+] [-] tuomasb|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] revelation|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] viraptor|13 years ago|reply
(BTW: that really broke google for a long time. google will revert your language to the automatically discovered one, even after you use their magic url that should prevent this)
[+] [-] djcapelis|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] binarymax|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fleitz|13 years ago|reply
Even worse is many of the citizens of this 'republic' have been brainwashed by a compulsory education system that they actually live in a democratic republic.
[+] [-] bad_user|13 years ago|reply
If they are pushed to such extremes as to go to North Korea, then it's ultimately your fault, the citizen of a Western country, for allowing your government to take such drastic anti-copyright measures that ultimately lead to corruption and censorship.
Kind of ironic that Internet freedom will be increasingly achieved in our countries by befriending our enemies.
[+] [-] chimeracoder|13 years ago|reply
As pointed out yesterday on the Bradley Manning discussion, the US is starting to get to the point where it can't credibly criticize other countries for their human rights abuses, given what goes on in this country.
I don't want this to turn into a discussion of whether the US is worse than North Korea, but both have abused - and continue to abuse - human rights in abysmal ways.
[+] [-] INTPenis|13 years ago|reply
I don't know if they still do because I haven't kept track, but they did for sure host pedophile message boards in 2005-2006 where pedophiles discussed things like raising children for sex.
Why? I can only guess that it's because they believe in freedom of speech over everything else.
[+] [-] powertower|13 years ago|reply
Why would you hold them up to a higher standard?
[+] [-] arbuge|13 years ago|reply
http://www.businessinsider.com/survivors-liken-north-korean-...
http://www.fastcompany.com/3006452/fast-feed/north-koreas-co...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_North_Korea
[+] [-] nmbr|13 years ago|reply
In the end all this means to me is that I'm going to save the $65 that I was about to spend on a PB hoodie. Assuming TPB are paying for their NK servers, I'd rather not risking providing funds for lil' Kim's holocaust.
[+] [-] easy_rider|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] breck|13 years ago|reply
To point to a specific example, yesterday I watched George Stephanopoulos interview Dennis Rodman after Rodman's NK trip and George made some comment about the human rights record and to back it up he mentioned that NK has 200,000 folks in prison camps. Based on that logic, the U.S. is 10x worse with 2.2 million people in prison right now.
NK has a bad system of government. Their human rights record leaves much to be desired. But so does the human rights record of every country on earth, including the US.
[+] [-] baby|13 years ago|reply
on a more serious note, your country is pushing them to leave their own country. Where to go? To your enemies of course.
[+] [-] rikacomet|13 years ago|reply
Pirate bay has been offered, they haven't accepted it for now.
[+] [-] AznHisoka|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] youngerdryas|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] newishuser|13 years ago|reply
It should make you uneasy that they have to go to North Korea to keep the site online. While they are not martyrs for an easy to grasp cause, and their definition of 'free speech' may fly in the face of yours, they are doing their absolute best to keep alive what they think is important. This has recently resulted in much irony. Irony that I'm sure they're proud of.
You should hate this. That's the point. This wasn't done so people could keep downloading movies illegally, this was done to make a statement, to get you to think. So please, ice your knee, and think.
[+] [-] InclinedPlane|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] citricsquid|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tuomasb|13 years ago|reply
That server is in Germany, no way it's possible to have 50ms to NK. Also traditional traceroute has 500ms+ RTT.
They are faking/spoofing the ICMP responses. They are also prepending their route advertisement with corresponding AS paths to further disguise it.
From TeliaSonera looking glass http://lg.telia.net/
194.71.107.0/24 *[BGP/170] 02:10:36, MED 0, localpref 150, from 80.91.255.255 AS path: 2914 39138 22351 131279 51040 I
AS39138 is probably the real upstream provider of TBP. They peer with AS51040(TPB network) and TPB router prepends AS22351(Intelsat) and AS131279(North Korean ISP) into it's AS Path before advertising it to AS39138.
[+] [-] notahacker|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] freyr|13 years ago|reply
It's OK to support freedom of information, and also recognize TPB for what it really is.
[+] [-] CamperBob2|13 years ago|reply
It's the industry's job to ask me what distribution channel I want to use, not dictate what channel they require me to use. When they figure that out, they'll start making money again.
[+] [-] johnward|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Zoepfli|13 years ago|reply
Children of the Secret State - North Korea https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/6441601/
Inside - Undercover in North Korea https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/6136295/
Comrades and Strangers: Behind the Closed Doors of North Korea https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/6899842/
The Vice Guide to North Korea https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/5378291/
National Geographic Explorer ~ Inside North Korea https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/6110419/
It will be interesting to see how serious their new overlord is about that "freedom of speech thing". My guess is that sooner or later, some of those films will suddenly vanish from the site.
[+] [-] ChuckMcM|13 years ago|reply
By doing that, it illustrates just how ridiculous the current copyright situation is.
Nicely played Piratebay, nicely played.
[+] [-] notahacker|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] runn1ng|13 years ago|reply
Of course it's serious.
edit: I thought it's a joke... but the traceroute trully ends in North Korea with the 175.45.177.217 IP.
So ... maybe it's actualy legit.
I don't know what to trust anymore.
[+] [-] eli|13 years ago|reply
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/03/pirate-bay-plans-...
[+] [-] InclinedPlane|13 years ago|reply
The idea that it would even be feasible for TPB to host in North Korea is ridiculous. The fact that they already have a history of pranks about their hosting should be a big clue.
[+] [-] benwerd|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gee_totes|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mayank|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kyllo|13 years ago|reply
That's the wrong one, though.
Republic of Korea = South
Democratic People's Republic of Korea = North
[+] [-] WhoIsSatoshi|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] popee|13 years ago|reply
Here is what they think:
"This is truly an ironic situation. We have been fighting for a free world, and our opponents are mostly huge corporations from the United States of America, a place where freedom and freedom of speech is said to be held high. At the same time, companies from that country is chasing a competitor from other countries, bribing police and lawmakers, threatening political parties and physically hunting people from our crew. And to our help comes a government famous in our part of the world for locking people up for their thoughts and forbidding access to information."
Is this false?
[+] [-] dewey|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] endianswap|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iy56|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] downandout|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] romnempire|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dclowd9901|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dsl|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tuomasb|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dewey|13 years ago|reply