What's even sadder is that many if not most HN users are contributing to the surveillance apparatus by building web apps and infrastructure, promoting it, and not taking a stand against it.
How many of you Googlers and Facebookers (and the legions of you working for Facebook/Google wannabes) have really thought hard about what you're doing? How many of you care? How many of you honestly want to do something to stop the pissing away of privacy to corporations and the government?
I would venture to guess that it's a vanishingly small percentage. Most just want to make money, and let others worry about the consequences. Or they delude themselves in to thinking they're "changing the world" with some monumental cow-tipping app.
There are still those of us who don't support total surveillance and will not stand for it. Were probably more traditional Unix people and not so embroiled in technology. Everyone else has been got if you ask me through media, social pressure or plain old apathy.
However it's worse than just web sites. I've worked for a nefarious company who feeds of data like theirs. I came to my senses when asked to do things which destroyed my ethics and quit to make amends.
At risk of promoting a fanatic, stallman was right for many years. Once a fanatic, then a told you so, then a visionary. I genuinely was brainwashed to think the guy was nuts until I saw it all with my own eyes.
Some things you can do:
* sign out of Facebook forever. There is no point in deleting your profile. Real friends meet you in real life.
* close your google account. It just follows you like a leaky passport.
* get a dumbphone and turn it off all day unless you need it for emergencies.
* read books instead of use e-readers.
* host your own mail and web services at home. Use SSL (with own CA), SSH and encrypt your email if sensitive.
* ask yourself is your employer really doing ethical work. No? Find somewhere else. This is the hardest bit - it took me 10 years to find somewhere ethical.
* use cash, particularly when shopping in large chains or on public transport systems.
It's always shocking to me how many of the people I graduated with want to go work for 'defence' contractors/intelligence agencies like the NSA. I can't tell if people don't think about the affect they're having on the world or just don't care.
I don't have a problem with cow-tipping apps, I just want people to avoid actively harming the world.
I blame a lack of historical knowledge combined with the fact that we mostly exist in harmony with our governments.
First, few of us have taken the time to read accounts of how the political groups of history have used information against people. So we don't know to do addition when we have one and one.
Combine that with the fact that most of us aren't engaged in any sort of activity that incumbent power would like to disrupt. You get a false sense of security, because no one is presently leveraging any of the information they have against you. That could change the moment you had an exciting or disruptive political idea, but for now 'the system' is happy with you keeping your head down and working.
If anyone wants to read a sad tale of how groups of men can use information to hurt each other, check out Out of the Night by Jan Valtin
Sadder yet is that the 'surveillance apparatus' itself may be actively involved here on HN. Heck, could be happening in this thread for all we know! That is the reality of today.
Layer on top of this what we already know about the close relationship between mobile providers and the government, and it’s a safe bet that if the government wants to know where you and what you’re up to right now, they know.
IOW the headline is just linkbait; the government can stalk you more easily than ever before, but in the text of the article comes the admission that it's not necessarily bothering to do so. Before people throw up slippery-slope arguments and claim these things only go one way, please take a moment and ask yourself how much freedom you realistically enjoy now vs. in previous periods like the Red Scare of the 1950s when the US was in the grip of anti-Communist paranoia. I suggest that we enjoy a great deal more.
The stated goal [OEV] of this technology is to support, “classified blogging activities on foreign-language websites to enable Centcom to counter violent extremist and enemy propaganda outside the US." But Isaac R. Porche, a researcher at the RAND corporation, claims it would not be easy to exclude US audiences when dealing with internet communications.
You could make the exact same argument about Voice of America. A few countries like North Korea still make it illegal to possess radios capable to tuning into to broadcasts from frequencies other than the official propaganda channels. The US has leveraged broadcast and print media to promote its own interests for about as long as those technologies have been around, as do most other governments. I've watched quite a few North Korean propaganda videos on YouTube and somehow I've managed to avoid joining the Kim family personality cult. There's no reason to think that encountering some US government propaganda by accident is going to short-circuit the brains of Americans and turn them in mindless drones - we already have 24 hour sports and shopping and soap opera channels to take care of that.
I think the implications of your second topic are more profound than you are considering. By creating these online sock puppets and fictitious lives to back them up, the government is essentially injecting fake government agents into our lives which could go deeper than any of us would normally imagine. For instance, to be taken seriously on a message board such as ours, you might need a github page. You might also need a meetup profile. And you'd need a linkedin that's believable. To make these happen you might also need some real-world interaction, so it's possibly tied in with undercover agents in the real world, such as those infiltrating occupy wallstreet or other groups/organizations/companies we don't know about.
the US government is running a large ring of puppet accounts as part of Operation Earnest Voice (OEV)--a practice commonly called “astroturfing”...
Operation Earnest voice is built to allow 50 real users to manage 10 fake accounts each. These 500 accounts appear to be from anywhere in the world they user would like, “replete with background , history, supporting details, and cyber presences that are technically, culturally and geographically consistent.” What it does, effectively, is create a network of online personas that, when working in a coordinated fashion, can control the tone and direction of just about any online conversation.
This brings to light an important consideration about the current state of social media and whether or not these massive social networks are really the answer - could be argued that it is better to be apart of smaller-scale, referral based, private networks where there is less likely to be 'infiltrations' of the variety stated here.
Unfortunately, I suspect, that HN is no exception to a program like OEV.
I periodically get concerned about this, but I already assume that government:
(1) mostly, somewhat, has our best interests in mind, not totally, but somewhat, and
(2) not only uses fake accounts and taps lines, but has presence and/or influence at pretty much any major company like Google, Facebook, etc.
I think the right thing to do is to:
* Periodically speak up and support privacy legislation, semi-anonymously. (They can find out who you are, but don't be blatant or overly noisy, even from different accounts or locations, because that is more of a threat. Don't use Tor, Redphone, etc.)
* Realize that we have limited to no privacy when anyone can post info about you and credit card, phone/GPS data, etc. can be used/stolen.
* Know that there are politics, power trips, psychosis, and evil.
* Know that most people feel the same way you do. They don't want people killing their families and friends, and want to respect your freedom. Whether they are in government, military, or not, they are 99% trying to help. If you have family in government and military, think about them. They have your best interests in mind, usually.
I think it is fine to have these posts, but don't get too worked up about them. There is no reason to be paranoid. Just do your best with the knowledge you have, and don't act like a straight lace or a wierdo and you'll fit right in and probably won't be a victim.
If you join the militia, sell your house and build a bomb shelter in the woods full of guns, or start using cash-only without a recent purchase of a Dave Ramsey book, that's a red flag. Also, don't buy fertilizer in bulk, or from a bunch of different locations. Basically, don't be a moron.
I remember Deus-Ex in 2000 ... When the ECHELON/Aquinas was scary fictional big brother ... look where we are now ... :(
Even the people in the game itself where ridiculed for suggestion such practises existed. Let alone in real life.
Exactly. You read about things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A and you just have to wonder. That's an Internet backbone, who knows what they're capable of parsing and retaining from it. And if the capabilities existed to data warehouse the entire backbone, why not (if you're the NSA)?
[+] [-] gnosis|13 years ago|reply
How many of you Googlers and Facebookers (and the legions of you working for Facebook/Google wannabes) have really thought hard about what you're doing? How many of you care? How many of you honestly want to do something to stop the pissing away of privacy to corporations and the government?
I would venture to guess that it's a vanishingly small percentage. Most just want to make money, and let others worry about the consequences. Or they delude themselves in to thinking they're "changing the world" with some monumental cow-tipping app.
[+] [-] hp50g|13 years ago|reply
However it's worse than just web sites. I've worked for a nefarious company who feeds of data like theirs. I came to my senses when asked to do things which destroyed my ethics and quit to make amends.
At risk of promoting a fanatic, stallman was right for many years. Once a fanatic, then a told you so, then a visionary. I genuinely was brainwashed to think the guy was nuts until I saw it all with my own eyes.
Some things you can do:
* sign out of Facebook forever. There is no point in deleting your profile. Real friends meet you in real life.
* close your google account. It just follows you like a leaky passport.
* get a dumbphone and turn it off all day unless you need it for emergencies.
* read books instead of use e-readers.
* host your own mail and web services at home. Use SSL (with own CA), SSH and encrypt your email if sensitive.
* ask yourself is your employer really doing ethical work. No? Find somewhere else. This is the hardest bit - it took me 10 years to find somewhere ethical.
* use cash, particularly when shopping in large chains or on public transport systems.
* use Firefox only, with adblock and ghostery.
There are probably more.
[+] [-] cgag|13 years ago|reply
I don't have a problem with cow-tipping apps, I just want people to avoid actively harming the world.
[+] [-] droopyEyelids|13 years ago|reply
First, few of us have taken the time to read accounts of how the political groups of history have used information against people. So we don't know to do addition when we have one and one.
Combine that with the fact that most of us aren't engaged in any sort of activity that incumbent power would like to disrupt. You get a false sense of security, because no one is presently leveraging any of the information they have against you. That could change the moment you had an exciting or disruptive political idea, but for now 'the system' is happy with you keeping your head down and working.
If anyone wants to read a sad tale of how groups of men can use information to hurt each other, check out Out of the Night by Jan Valtin
[+] [-] mrschwabe|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Helianthus|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anigbrowl|13 years ago|reply
Layer on top of this what we already know about the close relationship between mobile providers and the government, and it’s a safe bet that if the government wants to know where you and what you’re up to right now, they know.
IOW the headline is just linkbait; the government can stalk you more easily than ever before, but in the text of the article comes the admission that it's not necessarily bothering to do so. Before people throw up slippery-slope arguments and claim these things only go one way, please take a moment and ask yourself how much freedom you realistically enjoy now vs. in previous periods like the Red Scare of the 1950s when the US was in the grip of anti-Communist paranoia. I suggest that we enjoy a great deal more.
The stated goal [OEV] of this technology is to support, “classified blogging activities on foreign-language websites to enable Centcom to counter violent extremist and enemy propaganda outside the US." But Isaac R. Porche, a researcher at the RAND corporation, claims it would not be easy to exclude US audiences when dealing with internet communications.
You could make the exact same argument about Voice of America. A few countries like North Korea still make it illegal to possess radios capable to tuning into to broadcasts from frequencies other than the official propaganda channels. The US has leveraged broadcast and print media to promote its own interests for about as long as those technologies have been around, as do most other governments. I've watched quite a few North Korean propaganda videos on YouTube and somehow I've managed to avoid joining the Kim family personality cult. There's no reason to think that encountering some US government propaganda by accident is going to short-circuit the brains of Americans and turn them in mindless drones - we already have 24 hour sports and shopping and soap opera channels to take care of that.
I'm distinctly underwhelmed.
[+] [-] logn|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rayiner|13 years ago|reply
"The government knows a bunch of stuff about you that you choose to publicly disclose! Panic!"
[+] [-] mrschwabe|13 years ago|reply
Operation Earnest voice is built to allow 50 real users to manage 10 fake accounts each. These 500 accounts appear to be from anywhere in the world they user would like, “replete with background , history, supporting details, and cyber presences that are technically, culturally and geographically consistent.” What it does, effectively, is create a network of online personas that, when working in a coordinated fashion, can control the tone and direction of just about any online conversation.
This brings to light an important consideration about the current state of social media and whether or not these massive social networks are really the answer - could be argued that it is better to be apart of smaller-scale, referral based, private networks where there is less likely to be 'infiltrations' of the variety stated here.
Unfortunately, I suspect, that HN is no exception to a program like OEV.
[+] [-] hakaaaaaaak|13 years ago|reply
(1) mostly, somewhat, has our best interests in mind, not totally, but somewhat, and
(2) not only uses fake accounts and taps lines, but has presence and/or influence at pretty much any major company like Google, Facebook, etc.
I think the right thing to do is to:
* Periodically speak up and support privacy legislation, semi-anonymously. (They can find out who you are, but don't be blatant or overly noisy, even from different accounts or locations, because that is more of a threat. Don't use Tor, Redphone, etc.)
* Realize that we have limited to no privacy when anyone can post info about you and credit card, phone/GPS data, etc. can be used/stolen.
* Know that there are politics, power trips, psychosis, and evil.
* Know that most people feel the same way you do. They don't want people killing their families and friends, and want to respect your freedom. Whether they are in government, military, or not, they are 99% trying to help. If you have family in government and military, think about them. They have your best interests in mind, usually.
I think it is fine to have these posts, but don't get too worked up about them. There is no reason to be paranoid. Just do your best with the knowledge you have, and don't act like a straight lace or a wierdo and you'll fit right in and probably won't be a victim.
If you join the militia, sell your house and build a bomb shelter in the woods full of guns, or start using cash-only without a recent purchase of a Dave Ramsey book, that's a red flag. Also, don't buy fertilizer in bulk, or from a bunch of different locations. Basically, don't be a moron.
[+] [-] Qantourisc|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sambomillo|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chuckmans3|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cmoylan|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Xorlev|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brentledent|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] humanspecies|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tptacek|13 years ago|reply