I would also like a response from Sendgrid here. Somebody they sent to a conference, who was representing their company there, went on a personal vendetta against somebody and got them fired.
That's awful, and I join the people I see online right now in saying that I cannot, in good conscience, ever do business with a company that supports that behavior.
--And to how far Adria has set back womens' rights here--
The common thread I've seen from the women I've worked with in tech has been that they really just wish people didn't even notice their gender. They don't want to get treated like "a girl", they just want to get treated like "a person".
What Adria has done here is made sure that people in tech are always hyper aware if they're working with one of the "outsiders" that she has cast herself as.
as "a women in tech" (god i hate even saying it like that lol) i totally agree. i think what she did was absurd. It wasn't even a lewd or offensive joke.
Maybe its my social group but something like that would even cause any of us (more women in tech) to even bat an eye. If it was bothersome in anyway it was they were so loud she was paying more attention to them and they private conversations and not the speaker. She should have asked them to simmer down or take it outside. And definitely dealt with it in a less public matter, it just screams "look at me i'ml so awesome give me some attention". It even could have been dealt with without identifying them. that was a low blow.
And you are exactly right, the biggest issues I've had wrt my gender is that some men feel like they can't just relax and be themselves, and that makes some of them (either consciousnessly or subconsciousnessly) not comfortable. Its always funny to see how relaxed and personable some people become after i make some politically incorrect jokes/references.
As a SendGrid customer, it concerns me that SendGrid would stand behind the initiation of a public controversy under such questionable circumstances, especially one that resulted in the firing of a developer from his job. SendGrid should be in the business of email deliverability, not public shaming.
Edit: I've tempered my phrasing above quite a bit and removed references to individuals.
> I cannot, in good conscience, ever do business with a company that supports that behavior.
I think we need to stop doing this bullshit in general. I'd much rather have our community check each other and shame each other on Twitter than having employers step in and decide that thing X or thing Y is not okay for their employees to say in their personal capacity at a conference or on Twitter. As far as I've heard, Adria never asked for these guys to be terminated and personally, I think it was probably inappropriate for them to be. But it's also inappropriate (read: fucking insane) to boycott a company because you don't like what one of their employees posts on their personal twitter account.
That's the thing. If this isn't what she wants, then she shouldn't act like such an incredibly immature child. What she did was many times more 'immature' than what the men allegedly said.
They allegedly exchanged a harmless, obviously immature joke between themselves, and should have been quieter given the setting. That's their fault.
She then responds by posting a slanderous/libelous covertly-taken picture that could only be described as a "creep shot" of these men to thousands of people (under the Sendgrid brand). And accompanies it with a baseless quote that is entirely unprovable. It doesn't matter what they said, if she has no proof then she has no right, NO RIGHT, to post such claims in a public forum.
What if she decided to 'teach them a lesson' and go even further with it? "OMG, two guys behind me talking about having sex with underage gurls! (insert creep shot here)". Why not? Clearly she doesn't feel the need to have any proof of her claims.
Sickening conduct. My company and our partners will also be boycotting Sendgrid if they do not respond in the appropriate manner.
Let's cool down a little here. An irresponsible tweet doesn't really constitute a "personal vendetta" (it's not even personal -- as far as I can tell she never knew their names). And while the post was (apparently, I don't know what the evidence here is) the proximate cause, you really can't say that she "got [him] fired", as she wasn't the employer nor did she advocate for his termination.
It's just a bad situation all around. Yes, people shouldn't be fired for bad jokes. Neither should they be pilloried by the community for losing their cool and tweeting about it.
Adria acting as judge and jury over twitter was totally wrong. She should have contacted PyCon Staff if she felt uncomfortable.
That said, sexual comments at conventions get old really fast. Sure it's the first time you've made the tits or GTFO joke today but it's the billionth time I've heard it. Then there are the guys, total strangers, who want to quiz you on your 'nerd' qualifications. They also like to stand behind you when you are checking out a product or game demo, making smug comments like "she has no idea what that is", "I bet she can't even figure out how to shoot".
And the worst ones, the guys who are outright hostile towards women. These are few and far between but I've had men come up to me at conventions and say "No one thinks you're special because you're a girl". No idea who they are or what I did to deserve it.
The feeling that builds up for me is the exact same feeling I had when bullied at school. You let it each instance slide because individually they don't seem like such a big deal and you don't want to seem like a whiner. But at the end of the day they start to get to you and you feel less than human.
Others have suggested that "vendetta" is too strong; I don't know about strong, but I think it could be better phrased as "severe overreaction."
People, not just men, make crude and stupid jokes. Yes, I think it's likely that the majority of such humor comes from us (I am male), but honestly... the part of your comment I definitely agree with is that this goes too far to be productive or rational.
I won't be boycotting SendGrid over this (aside from the fact that they haven't endorsed her actions, they provide a great service that I'd have a hard time replacing, and that's reality for you), but in line with your predicted reaction, I'll most certainly operate with an increased trepidation regarding open, casual expression around women in tech.
There's a difference between offensive speech and an innocent joke. Adria's idea about what's harmful to the community is over the top and counterproductive, and that's extremely unfortunate: Just imagine if she'd said something and PyCon hadn't done anything. Then they'd have been in the crosshairs, and I'm pretty sure they realized this, which almost certainly have influenced their reaction.
Pretty obvious they fired the wrong person here. If someone worked for me and posted inflammatory images/statements about/involving a co-worker they would be the one needing to worry about their job.
I think Adria is in the wrong here but I don't think it's her fault or fair to blame on her that his employer acted even more quickly and foolishly than she did by firing him.
This whole situation sucks but let's try to be realistic about assessing blame. I understand why the fired individual's name is being withheld but I'd really like to know who his employer is. I would boycott that company way before I boycott SendGrid.
So I read the post on PasteBin and also read Adria's blog post and here's what I took from it. Context matters. Dongle jokes in the presence of friends (male and female) may be fine, hilarious even, heck I'm giggling inside just typing the word "dongle". On the other hand, dongle jokes in a (not private, audible-to-others) conversation in a conference hall while representing your company are unprofessional, may be perceived by some to be sexist, and could be considered a fireable offense by your boss. Guys in tech need to realize it's not about what you think is sexist or not, it's about how your comments may make others feel. Yes, they need to be hyper aware that they're working with people with experiences wildly different from theirs; the hope is that one day such a diverse community will actually be reality.
And she didn't get the guy fired. I think she went too far posting their picture. But she wasn't the one making forking and dongle jokes while representing her company as a sponsor, he was. And she didn't make the determination that that was a fireable offense, which I can see how a PyCon-sponsoring company might see it as one.
Oh and she hasn't set women's rights back any. And women tend to have multiple perspectives on these things (what's sexist/discriminatory etc) as history has shown.
It was completely in her right to turn around and tell the guys to shut up or bring it to the attention of the organisers. However, I don't think that was her intention at all. Her intention was to gain more mileage out of this. She took an issue about a couple of guys being immature and made it a sexism issue.
Based on her previous tweets (the now famous penis joke that she made, a picture playing cards against humanity), I find it difficult to believe she was offended by a dongle joke. I think she saw an opportunity to use this to further her online cred and that's what she did. Her blog post is the less about the incident (and indeed less about tackling sexism) and more about herself (i find the part about the girl in the picture particularly PR-ish). It was a typical PR move that got blown out of proportion.
This in no way justifies what followed on twitter, which was definitely sexist and misogynistic and very unfortunate. IMO this has pretty much pushed back much of the progress made on tackling the real sexism issues in our industry. Seeing a fellow developer get fired over something so benign (at least for most men, it would seem benign) leads to mistrust and political correctness in dealing with women in the workplace (which sucks!).
>Somebody they sent to a conference, who was representing their company there, went on a personal vendetta against somebody and got them fired.
I went back and looked at Adria's comment (conveniently not quoted), and you're completely misrepresenting the situation.
She didn't have a vendetta, she didn't try to get them fired. She simply asked that someone talk to them about the language which made her uncomfortable.
For all I know, they got fired because of how they responded to that situation -- is there any specific information about that?
Update: Someone has created a change.org petition to have Adria fired. I think it's only fair that she is fired, considering the fact that she put two innocent men's lives at stake.
I'm confused? SendGrid didn't fire the guy. So, by boycotting the SendGrid, but not the company that fired the guy, the problem is being offended and speaking up, not the firing.
There is also relevant finger pointing to the company that fired his employee less than 24 hours after the incident. Now that is a company that I never want to deal with!
This is a truly astonishing incident. What does it say about our society when an innocent joke (albeit "offensive" if taken out of context, as it clearly was) between two friends can be abused to tarnish someone's reputation? The abuser in this case (gender irrelevant) should be punished, and the victims deserve just compensation for the damage that this person has done.
I agree. This is an embarrassment through and through. What started as a grotesque overreaction has spiralled into a venomous shitstorm. Truly infuriating.
10% - The guys. Yea, a bit moronic to make a private adult joke that can be heard by others in a professional setting. But even in a real job setting, they'd just get a reprimand from HR and that'll straighten most of them out.
40% - Adria. It's getting evident that she went out of the way to take offense and sees herself as Joan of Arc (superiority complex?). She tries to make herself the center of the story. Extra credits for implying in her twitter feed that every criticism she's getting is from trolls.
50% - The company which fired the guy. Are you kidding me? Unless there's a backstory or a history of such behavior from the guy, it's awfully cruel to rob a guy of his livelihood without weighing all the facts. Yea, do an internal reprimand.. but FIRING?! Crazy people heading the company.
I mean, PyCon had a Code Of Conduct. If you don't blame the organizers for sticking to the published code, then how does Adria get blamed for doing the same? Doesn't that strike you as getting mad at her for "tattling"?
On the other hand, if you think the Code itself is bogus, then why don't the PyCon organizers get a share of the blame for a bad policy?
First – the fact that this guy's employer made a kneejerk reaction is no one's fault but the employer.
Next – let's talk about this red herring of "sexism." Making a phallus joke might be sexist depending on context. Or it might not be. Sexism is not at issue here.
The individual in question concedes that they did, in fact, make the joke.
From PyCon's code of conduct:
"All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience including people of many different backgrounds. Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks."
A joke about dicks? That seems to run afoul of the code of conduct the attendees agreed to. Sexist or not.
There's a discussion to be had around the best way to confront these behaviors. But regardless of your position on that, it remains the employer's decision, and therefore their mistake, to fire this person.
(Disclosure: I am acquainted with Adria and we've appeared together on a panel.)
Are you seriously suggesting the code of conduct applies to PRIVATE conversations between TWO people who obviously know each other? It is not like they meant to offend somebody. I am assuming they weren't talking loudly but rather meant to converse between each other. How I talk to my buddy is no ones fucking business.
How about you tell your friend of of those an American, a Russian and a German walk into a bar jokes, someone overhears it, snaps a picture and announces to his twitter following what a xenophobic asshole you are?
Their code of conduct also states that you may not take pictures of people without their express consent. I don't know why people concentrate on the issue of "who said what", that is such an extremely slippery slope I wouldn't dare going into it as a conference organizer.
But taking pictures (and then spreading them to your followers) is a very, very clear no go.
I don't think anyone takes issue with talking to the PyCon organizers and even having them removed from the conference.
The employer made a mistake for sure, but so did your friend. Skewering someone in public on the Internet like that is immature and irresponsible. There are a million better ways she could have dealt with this.
Most Europeans must just be laughing and pointing fingers at the insane political correctness in America and more specifically, the hacker community these days. I knew something was fishy from the get-go on this story but waited to see what else would come out of it. Thanks for this post, it articulates my feelings on the situation perfectly. People are outta control these days. We're turning molehills into mountains boys and girls.
Fefe is by no means "most Europeans", though he is quite well known as a ("political nerd") blogger in Germany. His comment on the matter, however, is less that of pointing and laughing and more that of worry, especially considering that there were some mild(er/ish) issues along similar lines in the wake of the 29C3.
"The 'sexual harassment'-story at US computer conferences is escalating further. This has poisened the climate to a degree where I fear the sentiment towards women is shifting from 'great, we need more [of them]' towards 'risk, risk, stay away, better not to say anything'. Smaller cons might possibly not admit women anymore [in the future], just to avoid being subject to such risks. This is all very unfortunate [or: distressing/regrettable]. (Thanks, Michael)"
Everything in square brackets '[' & ']' serves as clarification.
I almost gave a tongue-in-cheek lightning talk at Pycon (mostly about python stuff, but with some tongue-in-cheek political jokes), and decided against it at the last minute. I'm glad I did, otherwise I feel like there would be HN headlines about me getting kicked out of Pycon :)
I totally agree. It was a private conversation, a maybe gross but not offending remark, it should have been treated as such. Most women I know here (Italy), if offended -- very ulikely -- would have risen to the occasion and destroyed the guy with a casual joke. :)
This is a rather bizarre situation. Still, I visited Sendgrid's website to learn more about them. Click on their "We are hiring" link and scrolled down. What did I find? A sexual joke. On their very own company website.
And before anyone says anything, the image depicts a person photocopying their genitals. It does not show gender, but the act is quite clear. Not something you want to have on your website.
Warning regarding the comments here: r/MensRights has recently taken an interest in HN regarding this case. A recent HN thread on this same topic is linked on the homepage[1], and there's been discussion of HN in particular here[2].
There's an agenda being pushed. Furthermore, the above PasteBin alleges the forking innuendo was pure fabrication in an attempt to paint Adria as a liar; the full story right from the source is found here[3].
The narrative being pushed is the same old feminism-has-gone-too-far crap where we live in a world in which men are terrorized by women who have the power to destroy lives with the snap of their fingers. Recognize this angle, ponder its absurdity, then form your own opinion.
Some other links to r/MensRights posts, in which Adria is called a "stupid twitter bitch" and a "terrorist" (yes, actually): [4] [5]
I already sent SendGrid's sales department an email that I will boycott their company and recommend others do so as well moving forward.
Where I work we were considering between SendGrid or Mandrill and this incident practically made our choice for us. We cannot and _will not_ support a company that backs[1] a person like this.
No, the photo did not get you fired, your employer's questionable policies got you fired. If indeed a phallus joke between two persons in a private conversation is not objectionable, why was this person fired?
As I see it here, the more and more "transparent" our private lives become with cell phone cameras and always-on video glasses, the more protection employees need from bone-headed employers dismissing them for reasons wholly unrelated to their competencies performing the job they were hired to do.
"I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so."
Hey, that's a strong claim.
This sounds like an anger management problem to me.
She writes that she's been on the road for ages. Sounds like she's exhausted, and needs a break. I used to react over-the-top to stuff like this, and used to work with others who did. I think the more politically aware you are, and the more your ideals and goals are at odds with how much of society is, the more effort you need to put into being able to deal with the inevitably strong feelings that come your way daily, unless you choose to just avoid being around stuff that triggers you, assuming that's even possible.
- First-offense phallus jokes should probably not be dismissable.
- Phallus jokes should probably not be made in professional, public contexts.
- It would be surprising if the guy was a valuable member of the team and fired on this basis alone.
- Adria's reaction probably didn't follow any principle of measured escalation.
I take issue with folks who say "it's a harmless joke!" But I'd also take issue with someone saying the dev who got fired earned what he got.
I think all of us would agree that technology has a sexism problem. However, the environment in 2013 and the way, as a whole, it seems that we have gone about countering it is roughly equivalent to napalming six city blocks to get rid of bedbugs in an apartment. (Edit: On reflection, a better analogy would be napalming New York City to eradicate bedbugs. I am aware of the scope of the sexism problem.)
This little saga merely reminded me that I'm walking from computers after my next position. Gone. Before 35. I'm going to go a career that isn't completely nonsensical, like fishing. I can't imagine I'm the only one. The overcompensation and hypersensitivity to combat sexism in technology is, rather amusingly, making technology even more hostile and demoralizing.
I don't want to read the fallout from a conference any more. This PyCon was apparently so much of a shitshow that I'm glad I didn't go. The decision to ban someone for smoking pot really cracked me up, given who I smoked pot with at PyCon 2012.
This fucking industry. So many double standards and emotional children. It's like I never left high school.
This is really unfortunate. I don't see how Adria can keep her job since she'll now have this reputation which just isn't compatible with being an evangelist. The joker guy and Adria will now both have reputations that will affect their careers. But the fact that they were both being paid to be at PyCon means they're both probably good at the work they do. It's all so unnecessary and sad.
Not mentioned is the fact that Adria has received a FLOOD of hateful, violent, racist, and misogynistic comments as a result of a _tweet_. Adria DID NOT get someone fired. She tweeted a picture and comments about something that made her uncomfortable at a tech conference.
As a result she has now been called a b_tch, c_nt, wh_re, n_gger, and an "affirmative action hire".
People are saying things like "someone with her sensitivity level should stay home and have babies".
People are saying she is privileged and has nothing to complain about (despite the fact that she is a victim of domestic abuse).
Is this how we should treat women when they speak out in public? Two months ago I mentioned some sexist remarks I got at a hackathon and this community told me to SPEAK OUT. Reveal the identity of the person. This tragedy is a good example of why that's scary.
It's hard enough to speak up when something makes you uncomfortable. Now it's terrifying.
No one deserves this kind of all-out character defamation because they thought a comment was inappropriate.
No one deserves to get fired for this kind of joke either.
Out of all of this I'm most shocked by how many people are OPENLY and PUBLICLY misogynistic and racist. It is a very sad day for our industry. Deep-seated resentments are being voiced loud and clear.
Look at the Reddit comments and Adria's twitter mentions if you want to see just how hateful people can be.
While everyone is riled up about Adria Richards getting offended and publicly shaming the person who made a joke about big dongles, you should keep in mind that she did not fire anyone. PlayHaven did.
PlayHaven could have decided to be the responsible party and handle the incident constructively, but they did not want to do that. Even Adria, who still appears to think that the public shaming was a good thing to do, also thinks that PlayHaven should have not fired the person.
So please, if you think the firing was unreasonable, please let PlayHaven know that, and also how this might affect your image of PlayHaven.
The emerging trend of people thinking they can just take photos of anyone anywhere for the sole purpose of uploading to the web for groups of people to laugh at or make judgement of leaves a pungent aftertaste in my mouth. Sure you might be legally allowed to but it doesn't mean it's not incredibly rude and inappropriate, with total disregard/ignorance of potential consequence like we are witnessing at the moment.
I see it on social media sites, people who feel comfortable sitting on a bus and just lifting a camera up to snap someone going about their day who just happens to look different to someone else so everyone can have a laugh at them. Sometimes presented under a thin guise of intelligent wit when actually it's vacuous bullying. Totally oblivious or carefree to the fact the subject matter may have actually noticed them photographing them, I wonder how that makes them feel?
This situation feels associated to me. I just don't understand how anyone can be comfortable just snapping a picture of someone to immediately upload on the internet to share with people in a negative way. Are people starting to lose their common sense and decency?
Sounds like a looming PR disaster because of a serious error in dealing with a perceived inappropriate comment (even if we discount eavsdropping on a private conversation being considered bad manners).
Sendgrid should be sending people who have enough skill and experience to know how to represent their company and what they stand for. This includes basic manners and enough insight to remember that all their actions are a direct official reflection of the company ethos.
Right now, their reputation just took a serious hit in my books because they feel best represented and aligned with someone who does not get basic courtesy (don't listen to other peoples private conversations) and think it's cool to damage someone's career and have them fired because of what they say in private by making highly public criticisms and maximising their distribution (i.e. twitter).
It did cause me to have a quick check over my mail scanning logs for a number of my clients and Sendgrid do seem to be a source of lots of complaints from my customers for spam. This whole thing pretty much cements my intention to just block their traffic in future without asking too many questions instead of suggesting customers use the opt-out links. It will cut down my own work and based on this incident I think I'll be doing my customers a favor.
Didn't she violate the spirit of the PyCon 2013 Code of Conduct? Here's the relevant quote from the CoC: "Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect."
We're trying to build a strong community here.
I personally think she handled this poorly and should be dealt with by the PSF for live tweeting images of attendees and shaming them. She too violated the Code of Conduct. I don't think she should be allowed to attend next year. I'm concerned I will see her next year and she'll misunderstand or misrepresent a comment of mine!
[+] [-] blhack|13 years ago|reply
That's awful, and I join the people I see online right now in saying that I cannot, in good conscience, ever do business with a company that supports that behavior.
--And to how far Adria has set back womens' rights here--
The common thread I've seen from the women I've worked with in tech has been that they really just wish people didn't even notice their gender. They don't want to get treated like "a girl", they just want to get treated like "a person".
What Adria has done here is made sure that people in tech are always hyper aware if they're working with one of the "outsiders" that she has cast herself as.
It's really sad.
(This comment is also worth reading: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5407884)
[+] [-] katbyte|13 years ago|reply
Maybe its my social group but something like that would even cause any of us (more women in tech) to even bat an eye. If it was bothersome in anyway it was they were so loud she was paying more attention to them and they private conversations and not the speaker. She should have asked them to simmer down or take it outside. And definitely dealt with it in a less public matter, it just screams "look at me i'ml so awesome give me some attention". It even could have been dealt with without identifying them. that was a low blow.
And you are exactly right, the biggest issues I've had wrt my gender is that some men feel like they can't just relax and be themselves, and that makes some of them (either consciousnessly or subconsciousnessly) not comfortable. Its always funny to see how relaxed and personable some people become after i make some politically incorrect jokes/references.
[+] [-] integraton|13 years ago|reply
Edit: I've tempered my phrasing above quite a bit and removed references to individuals.
[+] [-] djcapelis|13 years ago|reply
I think we need to stop doing this bullshit in general. I'd much rather have our community check each other and shame each other on Twitter than having employers step in and decide that thing X or thing Y is not okay for their employees to say in their personal capacity at a conference or on Twitter. As far as I've heard, Adria never asked for these guys to be terminated and personally, I think it was probably inappropriate for them to be. But it's also inappropriate (read: fucking insane) to boycott a company because you don't like what one of their employees posts on their personal twitter account.
Get real.
[+] [-] ratat|13 years ago|reply
That's the thing. If this isn't what she wants, then she shouldn't act like such an incredibly immature child. What she did was many times more 'immature' than what the men allegedly said.
They allegedly exchanged a harmless, obviously immature joke between themselves, and should have been quieter given the setting. That's their fault.
She then responds by posting a slanderous/libelous covertly-taken picture that could only be described as a "creep shot" of these men to thousands of people (under the Sendgrid brand). And accompanies it with a baseless quote that is entirely unprovable. It doesn't matter what they said, if she has no proof then she has no right, NO RIGHT, to post such claims in a public forum.
What if she decided to 'teach them a lesson' and go even further with it? "OMG, two guys behind me talking about having sex with underage gurls! (insert creep shot here)". Why not? Clearly she doesn't feel the need to have any proof of her claims.
Sickening conduct. My company and our partners will also be boycotting Sendgrid if they do not respond in the appropriate manner.
[+] [-] ajross|13 years ago|reply
It's just a bad situation all around. Yes, people shouldn't be fired for bad jokes. Neither should they be pilloried by the community for losing their cool and tweeting about it.
[+] [-] alukima|13 years ago|reply
That said, sexual comments at conventions get old really fast. Sure it's the first time you've made the tits or GTFO joke today but it's the billionth time I've heard it. Then there are the guys, total strangers, who want to quiz you on your 'nerd' qualifications. They also like to stand behind you when you are checking out a product or game demo, making smug comments like "she has no idea what that is", "I bet she can't even figure out how to shoot".
And the worst ones, the guys who are outright hostile towards women. These are few and far between but I've had men come up to me at conventions and say "No one thinks you're special because you're a girl". No idea who they are or what I did to deserve it.
The feeling that builds up for me is the exact same feeling I had when bullied at school. You let it each instance slide because individually they don't seem like such a big deal and you don't want to seem like a whiner. But at the end of the day they start to get to you and you feel less than human.
[+] [-] obviouslygreen|13 years ago|reply
People, not just men, make crude and stupid jokes. Yes, I think it's likely that the majority of such humor comes from us (I am male), but honestly... the part of your comment I definitely agree with is that this goes too far to be productive or rational.
I won't be boycotting SendGrid over this (aside from the fact that they haven't endorsed her actions, they provide a great service that I'd have a hard time replacing, and that's reality for you), but in line with your predicted reaction, I'll most certainly operate with an increased trepidation regarding open, casual expression around women in tech.
There's a difference between offensive speech and an innocent joke. Adria's idea about what's harmful to the community is over the top and counterproductive, and that's extremely unfortunate: Just imagine if she'd said something and PyCon hadn't done anything. Then they'd have been in the crosshairs, and I'm pretty sure they realized this, which almost certainly have influenced their reaction.
This is just sad, for all sorts of reasons.
[+] [-] SODaniel|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ritchiea|13 years ago|reply
This whole situation sucks but let's try to be realistic about assessing blame. I understand why the fired individual's name is being withheld but I'd really like to know who his employer is. I would boycott that company way before I boycott SendGrid.
[+] [-] eaurouge|13 years ago|reply
And she didn't get the guy fired. I think she went too far posting their picture. But she wasn't the one making forking and dongle jokes while representing her company as a sponsor, he was. And she didn't make the determination that that was a fireable offense, which I can see how a PyCon-sponsoring company might see it as one.
Oh and she hasn't set women's rights back any. And women tend to have multiple perspectives on these things (what's sexist/discriminatory etc) as history has shown.
[+] [-] tapan_pandita|13 years ago|reply
Based on her previous tweets (the now famous penis joke that she made, a picture playing cards against humanity), I find it difficult to believe she was offended by a dongle joke. I think she saw an opportunity to use this to further her online cred and that's what she did. Her blog post is the less about the incident (and indeed less about tackling sexism) and more about herself (i find the part about the girl in the picture particularly PR-ish). It was a typical PR move that got blown out of proportion.
This in no way justifies what followed on twitter, which was definitely sexist and misogynistic and very unfortunate. IMO this has pretty much pushed back much of the progress made on tackling the real sexism issues in our industry. Seeing a fellow developer get fired over something so benign (at least for most men, it would seem benign) leads to mistrust and political correctness in dealing with women in the workplace (which sucks!).
[+] [-] shardling|13 years ago|reply
I went back and looked at Adria's comment (conveniently not quoted), and you're completely misrepresenting the situation.
She didn't have a vendetta, she didn't try to get them fired. She simply asked that someone talk to them about the language which made her uncomfortable.
For all I know, they got fired because of how they responded to that situation -- is there any specific information about that?
[+] [-] neya|13 years ago|reply
https://www.change.org/petitions/sendgrid-please-fire-adria-...
Also:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-hi...
[+] [-] jasonlotito|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Zarathust|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yarou|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dmishe|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] doktrin|13 years ago|reply
I agree. This is an embarrassment through and through. What started as a grotesque overreaction has spiralled into a venomous shitstorm. Truly infuriating.
[+] [-] tom399|13 years ago|reply
"Hey @mundanematt, it's clear from the last 24 hours you're a bully. @SendGrid supports me. Stop trolling."
[+] [-] mouseroot|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] b0sk|13 years ago|reply
10% - The guys. Yea, a bit moronic to make a private adult joke that can be heard by others in a professional setting. But even in a real job setting, they'd just get a reprimand from HR and that'll straighten most of them out.
40% - Adria. It's getting evident that she went out of the way to take offense and sees herself as Joan of Arc (superiority complex?). She tries to make herself the center of the story. Extra credits for implying in her twitter feed that every criticism she's getting is from trolls.
50% - The company which fired the guy. Are you kidding me? Unless there's a backstory or a history of such behavior from the guy, it's awfully cruel to rob a guy of his livelihood without weighing all the facts. Yea, do an internal reprimand.. but FIRING?! Crazy people heading the company.
0% - PyCon organizers. 0% - Adria's employers.
[+] [-] breadbox|13 years ago|reply
I mean, PyCon had a Code Of Conduct. If you don't blame the organizers for sticking to the published code, then how does Adria get blamed for doing the same? Doesn't that strike you as getting mad at her for "tattling"?
On the other hand, if you think the Code itself is bogus, then why don't the PyCon organizers get a share of the blame for a bad policy?
[+] [-] designNERD|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danilocampos|13 years ago|reply
First – the fact that this guy's employer made a kneejerk reaction is no one's fault but the employer.
Next – let's talk about this red herring of "sexism." Making a phallus joke might be sexist depending on context. Or it might not be. Sexism is not at issue here.
The individual in question concedes that they did, in fact, make the joke.
From PyCon's code of conduct:
"All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience including people of many different backgrounds. Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks."
A joke about dicks? That seems to run afoul of the code of conduct the attendees agreed to. Sexist or not.
There's a discussion to be had around the best way to confront these behaviors. But regardless of your position on that, it remains the employer's decision, and therefore their mistake, to fire this person.
(Disclosure: I am acquainted with Adria and we've appeared together on a panel.)
[+] [-] codesuela|13 years ago|reply
How about you tell your friend of of those an American, a Russian and a German walk into a bar jokes, someone overhears it, snaps a picture and announces to his twitter following what a xenophobic asshole you are?
[+] [-] revelation|13 years ago|reply
But taking pictures (and then spreading them to your followers) is a very, very clear no go.
[+] [-] peterhunt|13 years ago|reply
The employer made a mistake for sure, but so did your friend. Skewering someone in public on the Internet like that is immature and irresponsible. There are a million better ways she could have dealt with this.
[+] [-] whalesalad|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rmk2|13 years ago|reply
As a quick and dirty(!) translation of this blog post: http://blog.fefe.de/?ts=afb76b8d
"The 'sexual harassment'-story at US computer conferences is escalating further. This has poisened the climate to a degree where I fear the sentiment towards women is shifting from 'great, we need more [of them]' towards 'risk, risk, stay away, better not to say anything'. Smaller cons might possibly not admit women anymore [in the future], just to avoid being subject to such risks. This is all very unfortunate [or: distressing/regrettable]. (Thanks, Michael)"
Everything in square brackets '[' & ']' serves as clarification.
[+] [-] GuiA|13 years ago|reply
I almost gave a tongue-in-cheek lightning talk at Pycon (mostly about python stuff, but with some tongue-in-cheek political jokes), and decided against it at the last minute. I'm glad I did, otherwise I feel like there would be HN headlines about me getting kicked out of Pycon :)
[+] [-] ludoo|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mynameishere|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] orangethirty|13 years ago|reply
See for yourself: http://i.imgur.com/uWc8P39.png
And before anyone says anything, the image depicts a person photocopying their genitals. It does not show gender, but the act is quite clear. Not something you want to have on your website.
[+] [-] ahelwer|13 years ago|reply
There's an agenda being pushed. Furthermore, the above PasteBin alleges the forking innuendo was pure fabrication in an attempt to paint Adria as a liar; the full story right from the source is found here[3].
The narrative being pushed is the same old feminism-has-gone-too-far crap where we live in a world in which men are terrorized by women who have the power to destroy lives with the snap of their fingers. Recognize this angle, ponder its absurdity, then form your own opinion.
Some other links to r/MensRights posts, in which Adria is called a "stupid twitter bitch" and a "terrorist" (yes, actually): [4] [5]
[1] http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1aofm4/programme...
[2] http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1algtc/woman_at_...
[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681
[4] http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1ao6mu/reaction_...
[5] http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1aonpl/thoughts_...
[+] [-] sergiotapia|13 years ago|reply
Where I work we were considering between SendGrid or Mandrill and this incident practically made our choice for us. We cannot and _will not_ support a company that backs[1] a person like this.
[1] - https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/314452708549603328
[+] [-] adamnemecek|13 years ago|reply
"Black people CANNOT be racist against White people. Racism is a position of the oppressor who has the power"
https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/6039856858
Words fail me. (I realize that it's unrelated but it provides some insight into her mentality).
[+] [-] raganwald|13 years ago|reply
No, the photo did not get you fired, your employer's questionable policies got you fired. If indeed a phallus joke between two persons in a private conversation is not objectionable, why was this person fired?
As I see it here, the more and more "transparent" our private lives become with cell phone cameras and always-on video glasses, the more protection employees need from bone-headed employers dismissing them for reasons wholly unrelated to their competencies performing the job they were hired to do.
[+] [-] tobych|13 years ago|reply
"I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so."
Hey, that's a strong claim.
This sounds like an anger management problem to me.
She writes that she's been on the road for ages. Sounds like she's exhausted, and needs a break. I used to react over-the-top to stuff like this, and used to work with others who did. I think the more politically aware you are, and the more your ideals and goals are at odds with how much of society is, the more effort you need to put into being able to deal with the inevitably strong feelings that come your way daily, unless you choose to just avoid being around stuff that triggers you, assuming that's even possible.
[+] [-] gfunk911|13 years ago|reply
Talking about sex is not inherently sexist. Making jokes about sex is not inherently sexist.
It's inappropriate in a large number of places, but that doesn't make it sexist.
[+] [-] jamesaguilar|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] integraton|13 years ago|reply
https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425
Incredibly hypocritical on her part.
[+] [-] tiredofcareer|13 years ago|reply
This little saga merely reminded me that I'm walking from computers after my next position. Gone. Before 35. I'm going to go a career that isn't completely nonsensical, like fishing. I can't imagine I'm the only one. The overcompensation and hypersensitivity to combat sexism in technology is, rather amusingly, making technology even more hostile and demoralizing.
I don't want to read the fallout from a conference any more. This PyCon was apparently so much of a shitshow that I'm glad I didn't go. The decision to ban someone for smoking pot really cracked me up, given who I smoked pot with at PyCon 2012.
This fucking industry. So many double standards and emotional children. It's like I never left high school.
[+] [-] guelo|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mwetzler|13 years ago|reply
As a result she has now been called a b_tch, c_nt, wh_re, n_gger, and an "affirmative action hire".
People are saying things like "someone with her sensitivity level should stay home and have babies".
People are saying she is privileged and has nothing to complain about (despite the fact that she is a victim of domestic abuse).
Is this how we should treat women when they speak out in public? Two months ago I mentioned some sexist remarks I got at a hackathon and this community told me to SPEAK OUT. Reveal the identity of the person. This tragedy is a good example of why that's scary.
It's hard enough to speak up when something makes you uncomfortable. Now it's terrifying.
No one deserves this kind of all-out character defamation because they thought a comment was inappropriate.
No one deserves to get fired for this kind of joke either.
Out of all of this I'm most shocked by how many people are OPENLY and PUBLICLY misogynistic and racist. It is a very sad day for our industry. Deep-seated resentments are being voiced loud and clear.
Look at the Reddit comments and Adria's twitter mentions if you want to see just how hateful people can be.
[+] [-] wmt|13 years ago|reply
PlayHaven could have decided to be the responsible party and handle the incident constructively, but they did not want to do that. Even Adria, who still appears to think that the public shaming was a good thing to do, also thinks that PlayHaven should have not fired the person.
So please, if you think the firing was unreasonable, please let PlayHaven know that, and also how this might affect your image of PlayHaven.
http://www.playhaven.com/contact
[+] [-] TomGullen|13 years ago|reply
I see it on social media sites, people who feel comfortable sitting on a bus and just lifting a camera up to snap someone going about their day who just happens to look different to someone else so everyone can have a laugh at them. Sometimes presented under a thin guise of intelligent wit when actually it's vacuous bullying. Totally oblivious or carefree to the fact the subject matter may have actually noticed them photographing them, I wonder how that makes them feel?
This situation feels associated to me. I just don't understand how anyone can be comfortable just snapping a picture of someone to immediately upload on the internet to share with people in a negative way. Are people starting to lose their common sense and decency?
[+] [-] mortov|13 years ago|reply
Sendgrid should be sending people who have enough skill and experience to know how to represent their company and what they stand for. This includes basic manners and enough insight to remember that all their actions are a direct official reflection of the company ethos.
Right now, their reputation just took a serious hit in my books because they feel best represented and aligned with someone who does not get basic courtesy (don't listen to other peoples private conversations) and think it's cool to damage someone's career and have them fired because of what they say in private by making highly public criticisms and maximising their distribution (i.e. twitter).
It did cause me to have a quick check over my mail scanning logs for a number of my clients and Sendgrid do seem to be a source of lots of complaints from my customers for spam. This whole thing pretty much cements my intention to just block their traffic in future without asking too many questions instead of suggesting customers use the opt-out links. It will cut down my own work and based on this incident I think I'll be doing my customers a favor.
[+] [-] jetsnoc|13 years ago|reply
We're trying to build a strong community here.
I personally think she handled this poorly and should be dealt with by the PSF for live tweeting images of attendees and shaming them. She too violated the Code of Conduct. I don't think she should be allowed to attend next year. I'm concerned I will see her next year and she'll misunderstand or misrepresent a comment of mine!