In the light of what happened at PyCon with Adria Richards and the whole internet explosion of nastiness and short sightedness from all sides I actually don't quite know what to think about "Women in Tech"
I saw so much hate that I was ashamed to be a male and in tech, yet I also saw so much narrow minded reporting and deliberate distortion of events from many so called feminists and feminist activists (not all female btw) that a part of me would be quite happy if I never saw a female in tech again.
We all lost in that affair - male, female, tech, non tech.
A part of me doesn't even want to think about it again for some time until the dust has completely settled. I would rather not even see articles like this.
A bigger part also realizes that there are real issues with sexism and would love to see more women in tech and understands that the only way that is going to happen is by honest and open discussion.
It's hard to understand how you could think that Adria Richards is representative of all "women in tech".
It's also hard to understand why you take Adria's incident as such a severe personal affront to yourself that you not only seem to want PyLadies to bite the dust, but "a part of [you] would be quite happy if [you] never saw a female in tech again." Even a sane and moderate person can see in this post a suggestion that you would like to see women actively driven out of tech - all because you are offended about Adria Richards.
With respect, please consider that your reaction to this may be strongly irrational and that the things you are saying as a result (and the Adria-unrelated places you are choosing to start a fight) may be making matters even worse.
> I saw so much hate that I was ashamed to be a male and in tech, yet I also saw so much narrow minded reporting and deliberate distortion of events from many so called feminists and feminist activists (not all female btw) that a part of me would be quite happy if I never saw a female in tech again.
So because there was an incident revolving around a woman and varying degrees of of what people consider feminism, you'd rather not see a woman in tech again? So if there is some new incident in the future involving a person of color, you'd rather not see people of color in tech again? Surely you can see that this attitude is really dismissive and while you may not feel so about pycon, in different circumstances this line of thinking is used to dismiss situations in which people suffer harshly, such as sexual assault or domestic violence.
> We all lost in that affair - male, female, tech, non tech.
I can't really say I agree, the people that really lost out the most are the two people who lost their jobs and have had the professional reputations damaged to varying degrees.
I would also like to point out that you feel you'd rather not see women in tech again, but you don't seem to feel that you should be excluded from tech. If that is the case, is it true that you have suffered as a man as much as women have if the pycon incident makes you feel women do not belong?
> A part of me doesn't even want to think about it again for some time until the dust has completely settled. I would rather not even see articles like this.
This is unlikely, because despite how hyperbolic some people have been about Adria Richards, sexism in tech is a real issue that affects people, so there will continue to be articles and dialogue about it.
> A bigger part also realizes that there are real issues with sexism and would love to see more women in tech and understands that the only way that is going to happen is by honest and open discussion.
Saying there are "real issues" with sexism implies that you get to define what sexism is, but that would be problematic to say the least. Also, openness and honesty in the context sexism (not with the pycon incident, mind you) generally may expose people to physical violence and harassment, so dialog isn't the only tool in the kit worth using at times.
I understand being conflicted about this, but it's a little bit selfish to side-track a conversation about something this unreservedly positive. Just remember not to paint too big a brush, and let things "donglegate" die rather than dictate the conversation going forward.
You "would rather not even see articles like this" -- just because it reminds you of that other controversy, which this article had the good sense not to mention?
As you note, the previous controversy had no real winners. Well, we all keep losing when that connection is reflexively made. Sure, it's natural to recall personally, but it doesn't need to be strengthened with constant mentions and fresh complaints.
I suggest going with your first impulse, give the thought some time off, and skip such articles if they make you feel bad... rather than the second impulse, picking at the scab.
I think you're taking it too personally. Step back and look at the big picture. PyCon was by all accounts a success and this incident a minor distraction that's gotten way too much attention and blown out of proportion.
> A part of me doesn't even want to think about it again for some time until the dust has completely settled.
How long do you think that will be (for you)? I agree with your sentiment, and I'm now more skeptical of everyone's motives since PyCon. Are we talking weeks? months? before balance is restored?
PyCon had 500 women out of 2500 attendance. Gave away over $100,000 in financial aid. Gave away 2500 Raspberry Pi's. Thought kids to code. Raised $10,000 for the PyLadies. Gave permission to publish amazing online videos etc.
And then you have these 3 idiots (and more online idiots) that steal the spotlight and everybody focuses on them. Sigh. Let's focus on the positive stuff!
I was at first confused by your comment's negativity when the link seemed to be positive (hadn't clicked yet), especially since you use "these." Now as I understand you seem to have done exactly what you're advocating against. Congratulations on derailing a potentially positive discussion and stealing a spotlight.
The three people directly involved came out looking pretty good to me. The companies who started firing people and the horrifying online mobs that followed were the only parties I'd classify as 'idiots'.
I'm glad for this piece to have come out of Pycon. After all the damage to the community, it's great to see how much good still came out of this event.
So, if I was at a shop with a large recruiting budget trying hard to land new talent, and I was also specifically interested in fostering an environment the encouraged and promoted women in our industry.. I'd seriously consider writing a check for 10k and doubling the contribution today.
I think this is great, and I'd like to add: If you are cash-poor, as many startups are, there may be other ways to contribute as well.
I'm the CEO of a startup here in Austin that uses Python. A couple weeks ago, another post here on HN led me to PyLadies, where I sought out the local Austin chapter. Turns out Barbara (mentioned in the article) runs the PyLadies Austin group.
I noticed one of their weekend workshops didn't have a space listed yet. Since I run a coworking space here in Austin (http://opportunityspace.com), I emailed Barbara and asked if she wanted to use our space for a meetup. She emailed back, super excited, and we're now hosting their Intro to Python workshop on April 6. (It's free for women in Austin who want to learn Python; RSVP here: http://www.meetup.com/PyLadies-ATX/events/99059532/)
There are many ways you can help and take the initiative. More smart coders benefit us all in this industry. Even if you don't have a whole lot of cash, I urge you to reach out to your local PyLadies chapter and see how you can help. Their website and chapter list is here: http://www.pyladies.com/
Let's pretend I'm at that shop with a large recruiting budget, and a $10k check is only an e-mail to accounting away.
I also just watched a massive blow-up and bad press around Adria Richards, PyCon, and this issue in general. I'm naturally wary of my company being connected with or supporting these virulently negative forms of misogyny and feminism of which the entire donglegate episode seemed to spring.
What would $10k would be funding, and the good press that would come of that? Reading http://www.pyladies.com/, they appear to put on study groups and other events, but their "Code of Conduct" is higher billed than an explanation of what PyLadies actually does with funding.
As a rational male programmer, I'd be quite impressed by such a move.
Beyond the important social message that such an act fosters, it's just smart. Good companies want to hire good people. Great female programmers are in (relatively to male) low demand and a smart company would avail themselves of that.
As a father and uncle who is cultivating an understanding of computers into three little girls I want to say that this is great. One of them likes embedded applications, other likes web, and the other likes video games. And I'm excited that the oldest one can code simple mods for Minecraft and get to show off in class (her fellow students play Minecraft).
I respect their intentions and I am sure they are doing good work. Regardless as a matter of principle I do not donate to organizations that discriminate on the basis of sex.
To my knowledge, PyLadies has not engaged in discrimination. It isn't discrimination to make groups which encourage minorities to code or get involved in the Python community or whatever.
Men are not being hurt by the existence of PyLadies in any way.
I have had great female bosses, co-workers and employees who have brought great talent and ideas to the table. I have also had horrible ones. The ratio of good to bad has been the same as males. Given this why should I support organizations which encourage increased women in tech? How does it benefit my organization? I understand increasing the talent pool but this can be done by supporting organizations which encourage more of all people to enter tech fields.
I notice a few comments scattered about various parts of this thread so I'll try and address as much as possible here.
There seems to be confusion regarding the idea of a program to support female python developers. Why female developers? Why not male ones too? This is what is causing the confusion that there's some sort of discrimination happening. However that's not really the case, and you have to look at the whole picture to really see it.
So, there's a problem of equality in the workplace as a general philosophy. Sexism, Ageism, Racism, you name it. Taking from a Japanese proverb "He who runs after two hares will catch neither". In this case there's more than two hares, there's quite a lot in fact. So we have to break the problem down into manageable components. In this case someone decided to take the women in tech approach to the problem and focus on it. I'd consider it like taking someone with knowledge of databases and let them work on the database specific problems.
Now then, what exactly is the issue with women in the IT field? Up until the hiring chain and through the workplace experience, there are points to where women don't get the chance they should get. One reason is that people may not see engineering as a "female appropriate job", as though women should be working as secretaries or fashion designers. Another problem is fear. There is fear that going into a job a woman might get harassed or otherwise have difficulty fitting into a primarily male dominated environment. Start-ups for example often have laid back environments where the line between professional an personal gets somewhat fuzzy. Someone slips and lets out an inappropriate comment because they're having a conversation with another coworker which resembles a talk at a party, and are unaware that they're still in a professional environment. This becomes difficult.
So you have women who are trying to get their foot in the door, but are not sure how. That's why we need groups like this. First off we need people to show support. We need people to say "hey women in IT is possible, here's some of us that are doing it". We also need men in on this too so they can be educated on what women in IT may have to deal with and know what to avoid. They're also needed to show that not all guys have this thing against women in IT and that things can work out for the better. Finally we also need it so that women can do networking with companies that are more aware of the issues that women deal with in the workplace, and actively work to figure out how to deal with it.
This is why these sort of organizations need to be in place, and why they need to target women specifically. They need to see others like them working towards the same goal so they can achieve their dreams knowing they have support.
Now with that in mind there is point to watch out for, and what I believe is a valid concern. That is that we don't want the women in IT movement to become a "women are better than men" deal, we want it to become a "women should have the same opportunities as men". Equality is our main goal here. However, because of the environment I've mentioned above, we need groups that specifically target women to help the transition towards a more equality friendly environment.
Hope this gives a better sense of what's happening.
Seriously? Come on.. Even if you've only been half paying attention the last several days, you'd realize that this issue is quite serious and personal to a lot of people. If, when you saw this post, all that came to your mind was a smart ass comment.. Please, next time, keep it to yourself.
My initial reaction was this is great, women are underrepresented in tech. Thoughts that came afterward: this is a horrible overreaction to what happened at PyCon over dongle-gate and this reinforces the boys club by making women a protected class (no pun intended).
PyLadies has existed for years, and the auction was announced and organized before PyCon even happened, and took place before the entire internet went apeshit.
These are facts you may find useful in deciding how to view this event.
What Ms. Richards has done to those 2 young men could have been much worse. She used her position in the developer/twitter community to intimidate and to cause harm to those 2 men. She knew what she was doing and the same outrage that Ms. Richards experienced, would have been the same outrage those 2 men would have received if what she did originally wasn't wrong.
She could have said that they were talking about rape or molestation and it would have been her word against theirs. They would have been hauled into jail, considered guilty and their lives would have been ruined, even though they are innocent and practicing their natural right to speak to each other.
She overheard a private conversation between 2 consenting adults and nothing was directed towards her or anybody else. She should have kept her mouth shut.
Ms. Richards or anybody with similar capability or visibility, should never be trusted in any community or group. Is the not what any group or community needs, ever.
Her actions were meant to intimidate, cause harm and censor a private conversation.
[+] [-] SeanDav|13 years ago|reply
I saw so much hate that I was ashamed to be a male and in tech, yet I also saw so much narrow minded reporting and deliberate distortion of events from many so called feminists and feminist activists (not all female btw) that a part of me would be quite happy if I never saw a female in tech again.
We all lost in that affair - male, female, tech, non tech.
A part of me doesn't even want to think about it again for some time until the dust has completely settled. I would rather not even see articles like this.
A bigger part also realizes that there are real issues with sexism and would love to see more women in tech and understands that the only way that is going to happen is by honest and open discussion.
[+] [-] pekk|13 years ago|reply
It's also hard to understand why you take Adria's incident as such a severe personal affront to yourself that you not only seem to want PyLadies to bite the dust, but "a part of [you] would be quite happy if [you] never saw a female in tech again." Even a sane and moderate person can see in this post a suggestion that you would like to see women actively driven out of tech - all because you are offended about Adria Richards.
With respect, please consider that your reaction to this may be strongly irrational and that the things you are saying as a result (and the Adria-unrelated places you are choosing to start a fight) may be making matters even worse.
[+] [-] king_jester|13 years ago|reply
So because there was an incident revolving around a woman and varying degrees of of what people consider feminism, you'd rather not see a woman in tech again? So if there is some new incident in the future involving a person of color, you'd rather not see people of color in tech again? Surely you can see that this attitude is really dismissive and while you may not feel so about pycon, in different circumstances this line of thinking is used to dismiss situations in which people suffer harshly, such as sexual assault or domestic violence.
> We all lost in that affair - male, female, tech, non tech.
I can't really say I agree, the people that really lost out the most are the two people who lost their jobs and have had the professional reputations damaged to varying degrees.
I would also like to point out that you feel you'd rather not see women in tech again, but you don't seem to feel that you should be excluded from tech. If that is the case, is it true that you have suffered as a man as much as women have if the pycon incident makes you feel women do not belong?
> A part of me doesn't even want to think about it again for some time until the dust has completely settled. I would rather not even see articles like this.
This is unlikely, because despite how hyperbolic some people have been about Adria Richards, sexism in tech is a real issue that affects people, so there will continue to be articles and dialogue about it.
> A bigger part also realizes that there are real issues with sexism and would love to see more women in tech and understands that the only way that is going to happen is by honest and open discussion.
Saying there are "real issues" with sexism implies that you get to define what sexism is, but that would be problematic to say the least. Also, openness and honesty in the context sexism (not with the pycon incident, mind you) generally may expose people to physical violence and harassment, so dialog isn't the only tool in the kit worth using at times.
[+] [-] jisaacstone|13 years ago|reply
Pyladies is an educational group. Don't assume that because it is a group for women it is any more 'feminist' than any other group.
[+] [-] ubercore|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gojomo|13 years ago|reply
As you note, the previous controversy had no real winners. Well, we all keep losing when that connection is reflexively made. Sure, it's natural to recall personally, but it doesn't need to be strengthened with constant mentions and fresh complaints.
I suggest going with your first impulse, give the thought some time off, and skip such articles if they make you feel bad... rather than the second impulse, picking at the scab.
[+] [-] arjn|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arh68|13 years ago|reply
How long do you think that will be (for you)? I agree with your sentiment, and I'm now more skeptical of everyone's motives since PyCon. Are we talking weeks? months? before balance is restored?
[+] [-] illuminate|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cpsales|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] amix|13 years ago|reply
And then you have these 3 idiots (and more online idiots) that steal the spotlight and everybody focuses on them. Sigh. Let's focus on the positive stuff!
[+] [-] martythemaniak|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] epsylon|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goldfeld|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jaibot|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Taylorious|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kaoD|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] patrick-james|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gcb0|13 years ago|reply
affirmative action is wrong. always. that's the reason racism/sexism/etc exist in the first place.
everyone who feels superior donating to those causes are misguided egoistics.
[+] [-] famousactress|13 years ago|reply
Any takers?
[+] [-] ericabiz|13 years ago|reply
I'm the CEO of a startup here in Austin that uses Python. A couple weeks ago, another post here on HN led me to PyLadies, where I sought out the local Austin chapter. Turns out Barbara (mentioned in the article) runs the PyLadies Austin group.
I noticed one of their weekend workshops didn't have a space listed yet. Since I run a coworking space here in Austin (http://opportunityspace.com), I emailed Barbara and asked if she wanted to use our space for a meetup. She emailed back, super excited, and we're now hosting their Intro to Python workshop on April 6. (It's free for women in Austin who want to learn Python; RSVP here: http://www.meetup.com/PyLadies-ATX/events/99059532/)
There are many ways you can help and take the initiative. More smart coders benefit us all in this industry. Even if you don't have a whole lot of cash, I urge you to reach out to your local PyLadies chapter and see how you can help. Their website and chapter list is here: http://www.pyladies.com/
[+] [-] pifflesnort|13 years ago|reply
I also just watched a massive blow-up and bad press around Adria Richards, PyCon, and this issue in general. I'm naturally wary of my company being connected with or supporting these virulently negative forms of misogyny and feminism of which the entire donglegate episode seemed to spring.
What would $10k would be funding, and the good press that would come of that? Reading http://www.pyladies.com/, they appear to put on study groups and other events, but their "Code of Conduct" is higher billed than an explanation of what PyLadies actually does with funding.
[+] [-] kmfrk|13 years ago|reply
At least someone like Sheryl Sandberg.
Maybe they should expand their reach and hit up the Rolodex? I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen a bigger reaction.
[+] [-] jmduke|13 years ago|reply
Beyond the important social message that such an act fosters, it's just smart. Good companies want to hire good people. Great female programmers are in (relatively to male) low demand and a smart company would avail themselves of that.
[+] [-] niggler|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] orangethirty|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AgathaTheWitch|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pekk|13 years ago|reply
Men are not being hurt by the existence of PyLadies in any way.
[+] [-] steveklabnik|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RyanMcGreal|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] obstacle1|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tripleggg|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] joezhou|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tssva|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cwgem|13 years ago|reply
There seems to be confusion regarding the idea of a program to support female python developers. Why female developers? Why not male ones too? This is what is causing the confusion that there's some sort of discrimination happening. However that's not really the case, and you have to look at the whole picture to really see it.
So, there's a problem of equality in the workplace as a general philosophy. Sexism, Ageism, Racism, you name it. Taking from a Japanese proverb "He who runs after two hares will catch neither". In this case there's more than two hares, there's quite a lot in fact. So we have to break the problem down into manageable components. In this case someone decided to take the women in tech approach to the problem and focus on it. I'd consider it like taking someone with knowledge of databases and let them work on the database specific problems.
Now then, what exactly is the issue with women in the IT field? Up until the hiring chain and through the workplace experience, there are points to where women don't get the chance they should get. One reason is that people may not see engineering as a "female appropriate job", as though women should be working as secretaries or fashion designers. Another problem is fear. There is fear that going into a job a woman might get harassed or otherwise have difficulty fitting into a primarily male dominated environment. Start-ups for example often have laid back environments where the line between professional an personal gets somewhat fuzzy. Someone slips and lets out an inappropriate comment because they're having a conversation with another coworker which resembles a talk at a party, and are unaware that they're still in a professional environment. This becomes difficult.
So you have women who are trying to get their foot in the door, but are not sure how. That's why we need groups like this. First off we need people to show support. We need people to say "hey women in IT is possible, here's some of us that are doing it". We also need men in on this too so they can be educated on what women in IT may have to deal with and know what to avoid. They're also needed to show that not all guys have this thing against women in IT and that things can work out for the better. Finally we also need it so that women can do networking with companies that are more aware of the issues that women deal with in the workplace, and actively work to figure out how to deal with it.
This is why these sort of organizations need to be in place, and why they need to target women specifically. They need to see others like them working towards the same goal so they can achieve their dreams knowing they have support.
Now with that in mind there is point to watch out for, and what I believe is a valid concern. That is that we don't want the women in IT movement to become a "women are better than men" deal, we want it to become a "women should have the same opportunities as men". Equality is our main goal here. However, because of the environment I've mentioned above, we need groups that specifically target women to help the transition towards a more equality friendly environment.
Hope this gives a better sense of what's happening.
[+] [-] tripleggg|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Nordvind|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chill1|13 years ago|reply
A simple Google search could help you resolve these inquiries in the future.
[1] http://www.pyladies.com/
[+] [-] pekk|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] reallynosh1t|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chill1|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sliverstorm|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mediacrisis|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rmrfrmrf|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] keepkalm|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ubernostrum|13 years ago|reply
These are facts you may find useful in deciding how to view this event.
[+] [-] pekk|13 years ago|reply
If you want to argue that PyLadies is hurting women somehow then you are going to have to provide better evidence.
[+] [-] r0sebush|13 years ago|reply
She could have said that they were talking about rape or molestation and it would have been her word against theirs. They would have been hauled into jail, considered guilty and their lives would have been ruined, even though they are innocent and practicing their natural right to speak to each other.
She overheard a private conversation between 2 consenting adults and nothing was directed towards her or anybody else. She should have kept her mouth shut.
Ms. Richards or anybody with similar capability or visibility, should never be trusted in any community or group. Is the not what any group or community needs, ever.
Her actions were meant to intimidate, cause harm and censor a private conversation.
[+] [-] pekk|13 years ago|reply