top | item 544975

The Eight Levels of Programmers

14 points| bdfh42 | 17 years ago |codinghorror.com

35 comments

order
[+] huhtenberg|17 years ago|reply
CodingHorror strikes again.

Knuth is apparently dead. And it sounds like he didn't go down quietly, he took Alan Kay with him.

[+] rw|17 years ago|reply
Summary: there are good and bad programmers. Some are just OK.
[+] iamwil|17 years ago|reply
Yeah, I don't know how this story got votes. It provides no insight and is not interesting.
[+] euroclydon|17 years ago|reply
Yeah, I hate codinghorror stories. How may karma points do you need to down-vote now, 100? I'm at 86 and once I get there, I plan on voting down most CH stories.
[+] Hexstream|17 years ago|reply
A yes, yet another broken way to partition the full richness and complexity of life neatly into made-up pigeonholes.
[+] Davertron|17 years ago|reply
Yep. I'm wondering where most people who read this article place themselves. I would say I'm probably a mix between the Working Programmer, the Average Programmer, and the Amateur Programmer. Working because I would say I have a successful career so far; Average because I wouldn't say I'm a naturally talented programmer (although I question whether they exist at all); and Amateur because I love programming and messing around with new technologies.
[+] vinutheraj|17 years ago|reply
Why wasn't Linus Torvalds added to his Successful Programmers list considering the first line of that category is - Programmers who are both well known and have created entire businesses -- perhaps even whole industries -- around their code.

Maybe he will get added once he dies, considering Linux will surely outlive him.

Another thing .. can Knuth and Dijkstra be said to be programmers ?! Just an open question for discussion !

[+] jleyank|17 years ago|reply
Didn't Knuth implement TeX in order to typeset his papers to his satisfaction? If so, I think the coder level fits...
[+] Hexstream|17 years ago|reply
Knuth is an expert compiler-writer. This alone would qualify him solidly as a programmer.
[+] anthonyrubin|17 years ago|reply
Only one of his examples of dead programmers is actually dead.
[+] khafra|17 years ago|reply
He explains in the comments that he meant it predictively, in that their work would survive long beyond them. I don't think programming has been around on a large scale long enough for dead masters who've actually died, unless you'd consider Turing, Church, and Shannon to be programmers. Hell, even the inventor/discoverer of Lisp is still around.

edit: I added "Discovered" because that's the way many Lisp fans, including pg, refer to it.

[+] nx|17 years ago|reply
I want to be a dead programmer.

No, that doesn't sound as cool as I expected.

[+] jlees|17 years ago|reply
It seems to totally overlook the successful open-source programming 'gods' so to speak, only mentioning open source in relation to amateur programmers. Where's Linus?
[+] donaq|17 years ago|reply
Where's Linus, RMS, K&R and Guido? They're not only successful, they're also "dead" (which is a stupid label to use). I'm sure people will be studying the Linux kernel and using GNU/Linux (or derivatives thereof) and hacking in Python and C long after those people are dead. Why does Gates get to be on that list and not the Woz?

I wonder where Jeff Atwood places himself on that list.

[+] jimbokun|17 years ago|reply
Seems the distinction between Average and Bad programmers is that, while both lack talent, the Average programmer understands that he lacks talent and the Bad programmer does not.
[+] biohacker42|17 years ago|reply
1. Two of his "dead" programmers are still alive!
[+] arundelo|17 years ago|reply
Alan Kay is not dead. (Maybe he's one of the "[v]ery few programmers ever [to] achieve this level in their own lifetimes".)
[+] jcl|17 years ago|reply
Neither, for that matter, is Knuth. I'm sure there are, however, piles of dead COBOL programmers whose code is still in active use. Perhaps Jeff should rethink the category names.
[+] gills|17 years ago|reply
Maybe next he will grace us with the '7 Levels of Programming Hell'...
[+] swombat|17 years ago|reply
I've heard of that. Apparently, on level 7, you're forced to re-read all of the blog posts on codinghorror every day, without cease.
[+] pj|17 years ago|reply
Where does Journalist Programmer fit in that list?