Detailed post, but it doesn't seem to address two things.
1. The WSJ report noted that Apple was concerned that " AppGratis was pushing a business model that appeared to favor developers with the financial means to pay for exposure."
Simon hasn't addressed this point. Do they make paid recommendations ?
If they do make app-recommendations based on payments, it makes a lot of sense for Apple to ban them. As an iOS (and Android) developer, I personally think that paid-recommendations are bad for the ecosystem (though I'm sure that some giant shops paying for recommendations may disagree). At the least, I think users of AppGratis should be told if the recommendations are "paid for".
2. Simon's discussion of rule 5.6 doesn't really address the problem. Rule 5.6 says "Apps cannot use Push Notifications to send advertising, promotions, or direct marketing of any kind."
Simon counters by saying that they only send one notification per day and that users opt-in. However, neither claim refutes the fact that they''re violating rule 5.6. All iOS push-notifications are opt-in anyway. Rule 5.6 says 'no advertisement , no promotions,.... no direct marketing'. It doesn't make exceptions for apps that only send one notification per day. Now Simon could argue that Rule 5.6 is bad for the user and that push-notification-advertisements/promotions are good. That may be a debatable point. However, it is clear that his claims do nothing to counter the fact that AppGratis violates Rule 5.6 (as it is written)
Pay for exposure already exists within the app store. Large companies pay around $10-$20K a day depending on the category on crap ad networks (won't name them) that incentivize the users to download the companies app in order to "get to the next level" or something like that. The downloads are incredibly cheap and you get thousands and thousands of them. The app store ranking is almost entirely based on download velocity, so your ranking goes up. Once you get in the top 12ish the organic downloads start pouring in just from being near the top. The value per user of those organic users is so high that it more than off sets the cost for the crap/incentivized downloads. Almost everyone who can do this, does this.
I've heard from one investor in Spain who was recently pitched by an AppGratis competitor that, depending on the client, AppGratis might charge big companies between $12/14K a day to promote their apps.
Take it with a grain of salt as this information comes from one of their competitors. But I wouldn't be totally surprised if they charge that amount.
Does 5.6 apply to all apps? Is it a black and white issue? For instance, the Southwest Airline app, Ding, sends me push notifications when there are sales.
Re (1): Well-disclosed paid-promotion should be fine: Apple does it (iAds), Google does it (AdWords). If that's the issue it should be fixable.
Re (2) If a notification that "today's [no-additional-cost] deal has arrived!" counts as "advertising, promotion, or direct marketing", then it seems every other push that aims to improve app usage, by announcing new content or features, would also be verboten. Is that what Apple is saying? If so, a lot of other apps are going to have to go...
Hi, I'm one of the developer of Meon https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/meon/id400274934?mt=8 . We have been promoted twice by App Gratis, each time we've never paid anything. The App Gratis campaign generated more than 400K downloads and push us in the first place in the French App Store (for a few days). Of course App Gratis use iTunes affiliation to get revenues, but they didn't charge us for anything.
Re: Rule 5.6. Aren't all commerce apps - especially Flash Sales apps violating Rule 5.6? I could get an app every day from Fab, Rue La La, Threadflip, Gilt, and others, and every week from Postmates, Instacart, etc...
Rule 5.6 seems crazy to me, unless I have misunderstood something. What are the apps that are using push notifications for other reasons than what Rule 5.6 prevents? Communications apps?
If that's the case, then Urban Airship needs to pivot very fast, because their business is built on something forbidden!
I think Simon's point regarding #2 above is that the push notification is just letting the user know about an event ("deal is ready"). It is not pushing advertising or promotion. I wonder if it would be in violation of the rule if the app sent push notification stating, "It's noon. You know what to do!". Of course, this is not in the spirit of the rule...
None of these rules are brand new and AppGratis had been approved by Apple staff time and time again and worked with the company when there were problems.
The fact a new person can come along and totally pull the rug out should highlight just how wildly inconsistent the approval system is.
+1 AppGratis is in violation of the TOS and are rightfully upset, but I think they were banned for good reasons.
I care more about the health of the app store ecosystem than one company. They claim to promote great free apps but in reality is spamming all their users with paid promotions to the highest bidder.
"I can't believe that it's 2013 and people are still basing their entire company around the App Store with it's murky rules"
"But there's a lot of money to be made there, it's worth it!"
"Apple needs to change their procedures"
They're all true. Basing a business around an app is both risky and potentially very profitable. Apple should change their practises but have little incentive to. So, for now, I can just express sympathy- this situation sucks.
I've been recommending Android for a while, and here is another concrete reason why. Every time one of these stories appears I write the following: I develop for iPhone and I used to love OS X. The iPhone in entirety and OS X lately are aimed directly at people who don't know how to use computers even if it comes at the expense of those who do. Everyone do yourself a favor and switch to Linux on your computing platforms.
Regarding the OP; I hope the blog post kicks up enough noise that they allow the app again. Having a large public outcry is the only way to get Apple to do anything other than sue Samsung in attempt to prevent them from innovating faster.
Basing a business around an app is both risky and potentially very profitable.
Yes, which is why you should treat your ambiguously legitimate AppStore business like a vein of gold which might suddenly run out. You make sure you can put the money in your pocket as you go (note: fundraising can hurt your ability to do this), you don't invest too much in crazy expansion (forty-five employees? hopefully it was all sales) and you don't get too attached to future plans.
It's an unfortunate situation for AppGratis, who did the best they could to keep the wolf from the door in the face of uncertainly, but this was pretty likely to happen eventually.
Yep. Now you can present the "Be Your Own Bitch" argument that it's like any business relying on a single source of traffic/income. A desktop-facing service nimble enough to pivot after an algorithm shift cripples their organic search rankings at least has options. If you're a local business, you can buy another billboard or do something else if your gravy train goes away.
The problem with the app market is that you literally can't be your own bitch. Your entire business lies in the hands of either Apple or Google. And until HTML5 (or non-native alternatives) gain traction and press Apple/Google into changing their ways a little bit, what is the solution?
AppGratis business model is dirty at its core because basically it's just a way for developers with cash to splash to have a big burst of downloads to help them climb the App Store Rank and get "organic download".
An even dumber thing is to bet everything its iOS app when you saw that a far superior product from one of your competitor was banned from the App Store 4 months ago (App Shopper) . I hope that the App Shoper banned at least made you think about the possibility that could await AppGratis and took preemptive measure. But No, instead you build an iPad app...
Now you come crying to the public in hope that a significant public outburst will make Apple changes his mind and reintegrate AppGratis in the store, I hope Apple stands firm on its decision.
I'm in no way an Apple fanboy or whatever, from a business point of view it make no sense. You knew the rules, you got burned and now you cry.
The only sympathy I have is toward AppGratis' 45 employees.
I don't feel like the larger issue was addressed by the CEO in the post and Apple seems to be avoiding it as well.
According to the AllThingsD article [1],
"But sources close to the company [Apple] say it was more than a little troubled that AppGratis was pushing a business model that appeared to favor developers with the financial means to pay for exposure. ... In other words, app-discovery platforms built on paid recommendations aren’t going to fly with Apple."
If this is their business model and this is really the issue, then it needs to be directly addressed by both sides.
This is an interesting point. Just curious why did the AllThingsD article cross out: "In other words, app-discovery platforms are fine as long as they’re not built on paid recommendations." and replace it with "In other words, app-discovery platforms built on paid recommendations aren’t going to fly with Apple."
I hate the idea of AppGratis and I'm glad its been removed.
Who really benefits? The cheap user who will not normally pay for a high quality app? The app developer who spends $$ to get featured in AppGratis to then artificially climb the app store ranking?
Dls are one of the worst vanity metrics out there. Devs should focus on building high quality products, monetize, then acquire quality users in a sustainable manner.
Happy AppGratis customer here. Note: we never paid for their services in cash but cross promotion.
A game of ours have been featured by AppGratis twice. They blow our charts what was then followed by a reasonable amount of paid players. That made a _huge_ difference for us. 2.5 months after the deal, there are still more downloads than was after 2 weeks of the release.
If you are a small team with very very limited resources. AppGratis is a really good way to get exposure this way. Would happily recommend them.
BTW, you can use other services to climb up the charts, like Chartboost or FB ads and I don't think any of them is any better or worst than the paid service of AppGratis.
Building great apps is hard. So is their marketing.
I've used it to try out paid apps that don't have a free option. I'd see a great deal of benefit for a small app being featured. They'd essentially go from their current user base to potentially millions in a day.
My app is a 5 starts app, it never moves in the stupid rank (always around 300) cause I refuse to pay 5K-10K to scammers that put a tiny icon in their f* ads network.
I advertised with AppGratis for free in 3 occasions, got almost a million downloads total and many more 5 starts reviews..first overall place in many countries, fourth in my category in USA..that saved my app, three months after last time still feeling the effect (but also as now back to the invisible part of the rank)
The problem is low quality software and no trials. I can't tell you how many times I've seen an app, paid $2.99 for it and then found out it was garbage.
They are just playing the game as Apple built it to be played. They were just playing it a little bit to well. Apple doesn't want to see high quality apps with sustainable growth, they don't not want to see that either, but what they really want to see impulse-buy shovelware that keeps lots of money flowing in every day from kids pockets who have the most disposable income and interact with iOS the most. If AppGratis is twisting the game so that they are receiving the marketing money, and they're building more analytics by capturing the market, then Apple is not very happy. I think this is pretty clear and transparent.
AppGratis is a pay-to-play platform. About $20k per app. If you watch the performance of one such AppGratis recommended app, Recorder Pro. The $20k couldnt even keep them in the top-50 in the biz category for a month. Seems a waste of dev mkting $$$ imo.
Simon should stop whining and just shift to Android. God knows it needs curation. The amount of filth in goog play is unbelievable.
There are a few ways you can work with AppGratis, but 20k per app is no where near close. They're good people to work with and as an advertising medium for a small shop are excellent value compared to running ads elsewhere.
That was also a very useful app that provided real functionality that is missing from the Apple Store, like price history and price sale alerts. But Apple doesn't want to make it easier to figure out if you should wait to buy an app. Good for Apple, bad for users.
I cannot understand why the developer would be surprised, since guideline 2.25 explicitly warns not to create an app whose purpose is to promote others' apps in a similar fashion to the app store?
Did they not stop to consider this could be a problem for even a second?
Apple needs to fix this process or they WILL lose developers.
I have no problem with simple humans making a decision to list an app in the App Store according to subjective guidelines. It helps get through a lot of submissions fast.
But delisting an app should involve a serious review process involving several levels of people on both sides.
And the depth of the review process should directly correlate to the number of installs and the time the app has been in the store.
This means that something like AppGratis has at least an assurance that their 45 staff wont be out of a job simply because they got someone in a bad mood.
The whole "no sympathy" bullshit is talk from people with nothing better to do that shit upon a fellow HN reader.
Imagine if Apple decided to pull Zynga's apps because they use notifications to promote themselves. There goes a public company up in smoke. The FTC will surely have something to say about that.
It still blows my mind that you can't pay $X,000-$XX,000 a year to get into a different line at Apple and get some damn feedback. Companies are investing hundreds of thousands of dollars a month building iOS apps, and they get the same treatment as a guy making an alarm clock app one Saturday morning. And I say that as a former alarm clock app sideproject maker and now professional app developer.
The really annoying thing is not that these rules are selectively enforced or that they are bullshit to begin with. The really annoying thing is that you could have a business that is legit under today's rules and that next week Apple will update their terms-of-service and that the week after you will be out of business.
AppGratis was doing a-ok under the 'old' rules and with the 'new' rules under the previous reviewers. Suddenly they're dead in the water because the 'new' rules forbid some behaviour (which given the apps popularity serves a need both on the consumer side and on the business end) which you may actually get a pass on during a review, and which then gets turned around a few weeks later.
If you're currently a successful vendor of any app in the appstore you may want to look carefully at what your 'plan B' is, just in case.
If you write for iOS, you are sharecropping. Your income exists at the sole discretion of an entity that has more power than you and very little incentive not to misuse it. Further, your income is more, not less at risk, if you are successful. If you lose, it's your loss. If you win, they take your niche, call you a plagiarist and kick you out with nothing. And if you are just puttering along, that's no guarantee you won't be sideswiped by a strategic or bureaucratic decision you can neither anticipate nor control.
It's all fun and games until an American technology company leverages their market share and business model to decimate a European technology company. A couple more of these and the EU will start dragging them in front of committees with little need to be concerned about a backlash.
Regardless of if you are in the "It's Apple's store, they can do what they want" camp or the "Apple should not be allowed to have this level of control" camp I think we can all agree that it's not good when one single entity holds this amount of power over arguably one the world's most important computing platforms.
Essentially, Apple can block any app they want for any reason they want. Even if you play by their rules they can change them tomorrow.
While I'm a free market supporter I don't think this is a good situation. It breaks innovation and makes our smartphones less capable than they should be. Sad.
Go and innovate on Android, what's the problem. Or make your own platform and innovate there. Or use HTML5.
What makes me sad is constant whining about stuff like this.
> I think we can all agree that it's not good when one single entity holds this amount of power over arguably one the world's most important computing platforms.
A former colleague of mine had a series of "cheat" apps which included answers to popular games on the app store. He started to see his apps pulled on Sunday. It could be a coincidence, but he had upwards of a million active users and never had an issue before either. Maybe Apple decided it was time to crack down on some of the rules they hadn't been enforcing.
Is it really that simple to raise 12 million dollars of funding - for a company which can be destroyed pretty much overnight by Apple. Do the investors not think about this? The world really has gone mad.
But this is an amazing way to deal with the situation. He's frank, honest and comes off looking like he's got the situation under control. Marketing types should bookmark this for future reference - great way to address a situation.
"We see so much growth that we’ll be past 100 million users in the next two years. There’s such a huge shift from desktop to mobile that the potential for growth is unlimited."
This is a little confusing to me; if the issue is the push notification why don't they simple stop doing the push notification? Or is it already too late for that?
I believe the issue has less to do with that than with capricious enforcement of rules, and little in the way of recourse for the victims of such.
If there were a formal review procedure with rules for when an app gets notified about scheduled future actions (and when those can be superseded when needed), as well as a procedure for fixing problems before negative actions (if there is it sure doesn't seem it's followed), then we would see less of these stories.
[+] [-] credo|13 years ago|reply
1. The WSJ report noted that Apple was concerned that " AppGratis was pushing a business model that appeared to favor developers with the financial means to pay for exposure." Simon hasn't addressed this point. Do they make paid recommendations ?
If they do make app-recommendations based on payments, it makes a lot of sense for Apple to ban them. As an iOS (and Android) developer, I personally think that paid-recommendations are bad for the ecosystem (though I'm sure that some giant shops paying for recommendations may disagree). At the least, I think users of AppGratis should be told if the recommendations are "paid for".
2. Simon's discussion of rule 5.6 doesn't really address the problem. Rule 5.6 says "Apps cannot use Push Notifications to send advertising, promotions, or direct marketing of any kind."
Simon counters by saying that they only send one notification per day and that users opt-in. However, neither claim refutes the fact that they''re violating rule 5.6. All iOS push-notifications are opt-in anyway. Rule 5.6 says 'no advertisement , no promotions,.... no direct marketing'. It doesn't make exceptions for apps that only send one notification per day. Now Simon could argue that Rule 5.6 is bad for the user and that push-notification-advertisements/promotions are good. That may be a debatable point. However, it is clear that his claims do nothing to counter the fact that AppGratis violates Rule 5.6 (as it is written)
[+] [-] espadagroup|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lleims|13 years ago|reply
Take it with a grain of salt as this information comes from one of their competitors. But I wouldn't be totally surprised if they charge that amount.
[+] [-] pgrote|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gojomo|13 years ago|reply
Re (2) If a notification that "today's [no-additional-cost] deal has arrived!" counts as "advertising, promotion, or direct marketing", then it seems every other push that aims to improve app usage, by announcing new content or features, would also be verboten. Is that what Apple is saying? If so, a lot of other apps are going to have to go...
[+] [-] jicea|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 2pasc|13 years ago|reply
Rule 5.6 seems crazy to me, unless I have misunderstood something. What are the apps that are using push notifications for other reasons than what Rule 5.6 prevents? Communications apps? If that's the case, then Urban Airship needs to pivot very fast, because their business is built on something forbidden!
[+] [-] therandomguy|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rurounijones|13 years ago|reply
None of these rules are brand new and AppGratis had been approved by Apple staff time and time again and worked with the company when there were problems.
The fact a new person can come along and totally pull the rug out should highlight just how wildly inconsistent the approval system is.
[+] [-] jjellyy|13 years ago|reply
I care more about the health of the app store ecosystem than one company. They claim to promote great free apps but in reality is spamming all their users with paid promotions to the highest bidder.
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] untog|13 years ago|reply
"I can't believe that it's 2013 and people are still basing their entire company around the App Store with it's murky rules"
"But there's a lot of money to be made there, it's worth it!"
"Apple needs to change their procedures"
They're all true. Basing a business around an app is both risky and potentially very profitable. Apple should change their practises but have little incentive to. So, for now, I can just express sympathy- this situation sucks.
[+] [-] pi18n|13 years ago|reply
Regarding the OP; I hope the blog post kicks up enough noise that they allow the app again. Having a large public outcry is the only way to get Apple to do anything other than sue Samsung in attempt to prevent them from innovating faster.
[+] [-] gyardley|13 years ago|reply
Yes, which is why you should treat your ambiguously legitimate AppStore business like a vein of gold which might suddenly run out. You make sure you can put the money in your pocket as you go (note: fundraising can hurt your ability to do this), you don't invest too much in crazy expansion (forty-five employees? hopefully it was all sales) and you don't get too attached to future plans.
It's an unfortunate situation for AppGratis, who did the best they could to keep the wolf from the door in the face of uncertainly, but this was pretty likely to happen eventually.
[+] [-] bmac27|13 years ago|reply
The problem with the app market is that you literally can't be your own bitch. Your entire business lies in the hands of either Apple or Google. And until HTML5 (or non-native alternatives) gain traction and press Apple/Google into changing their ways a little bit, what is the solution?
[+] [-] endgame|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tootie|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] knes|13 years ago|reply
AppGratis business model is dirty at its core because basically it's just a way for developers with cash to splash to have a big burst of downloads to help them climb the App Store Rank and get "organic download".
An even dumber thing is to bet everything its iOS app when you saw that a far superior product from one of your competitor was banned from the App Store 4 months ago (App Shopper) . I hope that the App Shoper banned at least made you think about the possibility that could await AppGratis and took preemptive measure. But No, instead you build an iPad app...
Now you come crying to the public in hope that a significant public outburst will make Apple changes his mind and reintegrate AppGratis in the store, I hope Apple stands firm on its decision.
I'm in no way an Apple fanboy or whatever, from a business point of view it make no sense. You knew the rules, you got burned and now you cry.
The only sympathy I have is toward AppGratis' 45 employees.
[+] [-] metafour|13 years ago|reply
According to the AllThingsD article [1],
"But sources close to the company [Apple] say it was more than a little troubled that AppGratis was pushing a business model that appeared to favor developers with the financial means to pay for exposure. ... In other words, app-discovery platforms built on paid recommendations aren’t going to fly with Apple."
If this is their business model and this is really the issue, then it needs to be directly addressed by both sides.
[1]http://allthingsd.com/20130408/confirmed-apple-kicks-appgrat...
[+] [-] dave1619|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kevingibbon|13 years ago|reply
Who really benefits? The cheap user who will not normally pay for a high quality app? The app developer who spends $$ to get featured in AppGratis to then artificially climb the app store ranking?
Dls are one of the worst vanity metrics out there. Devs should focus on building high quality products, monetize, then acquire quality users in a sustainable manner.
[+] [-] f3r3nc|13 years ago|reply
A game of ours have been featured by AppGratis twice. They blow our charts what was then followed by a reasonable amount of paid players. That made a _huge_ difference for us. 2.5 months after the deal, there are still more downloads than was after 2 weeks of the release.
If you are a small team with very very limited resources. AppGratis is a really good way to get exposure this way. Would happily recommend them.
BTW, you can use other services to climb up the charts, like Chartboost or FB ads and I don't think any of them is any better or worst than the paid service of AppGratis.
Building great apps is hard. So is their marketing.
[+] [-] ryanSrich|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icolorama|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] od2m|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TestingYourShit|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sanjkris|13 years ago|reply
Simon should stop whining and just shift to Android. God knows it needs curation. The amount of filth in goog play is unbelievable.
[+] [-] supercoder|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icolorama|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smackfu|13 years ago|reply
http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/12/18/apple-removes-popular...
That was also a very useful app that provided real functionality that is missing from the Apple Store, like price history and price sale alerts. But Apple doesn't want to make it easier to figure out if you should wait to buy an app. Good for Apple, bad for users.
[+] [-] 0x0|13 years ago|reply
Did they not stop to consider this could be a problem for even a second?
[+] [-] lessnonymous|13 years ago|reply
I have no problem with simple humans making a decision to list an app in the App Store according to subjective guidelines. It helps get through a lot of submissions fast.
But delisting an app should involve a serious review process involving several levels of people on both sides.
And the depth of the review process should directly correlate to the number of installs and the time the app has been in the store.
This means that something like AppGratis has at least an assurance that their 45 staff wont be out of a job simply because they got someone in a bad mood.
The whole "no sympathy" bullshit is talk from people with nothing better to do that shit upon a fellow HN reader.
Imagine if Apple decided to pull Zynga's apps because they use notifications to promote themselves. There goes a public company up in smoke. The FTC will surely have something to say about that.
[+] [-] krschultz|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skc|13 years ago|reply
To who exactly?
Exactly.
[+] [-] jacquesm|13 years ago|reply
AppGratis was doing a-ok under the 'old' rules and with the 'new' rules under the previous reviewers. Suddenly they're dead in the water because the 'new' rules forbid some behaviour (which given the apps popularity serves a need both on the consumer side and on the business end) which you may actually get a pass on during a review, and which then gets turned around a few weeks later.
If you're currently a successful vendor of any app in the appstore you may want to look carefully at what your 'plan B' is, just in case.
[+] [-] JulianMorrison|13 years ago|reply
If you write for iOS, you are sharecropping. Your income exists at the sole discretion of an entity that has more power than you and very little incentive not to misuse it. Further, your income is more, not less at risk, if you are successful. If you lose, it's your loss. If you win, they take your niche, call you a plagiarist and kick you out with nothing. And if you are just puttering along, that's no guarantee you won't be sideswiped by a strategic or bureaucratic decision you can neither anticipate nor control.
[+] [-] robryan|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jusben1369|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] niklas_a|13 years ago|reply
Essentially, Apple can block any app they want for any reason they want. Even if you play by their rules they can change them tomorrow.
While I'm a free market supporter I don't think this is a good situation. It breaks innovation and makes our smartphones less capable than they should be. Sad.
[+] [-] rimantas|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sneak|13 years ago|reply
They created the platform. There are others.
Stop spouting this foolishness.
[+] [-] muzzamike|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] planetjones|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] verygoodyear|13 years ago|reply
But this is an amazing way to deal with the situation. He's frank, honest and comes off looking like he's got the situation under control. Marketing types should bookmark this for future reference - great way to address a situation.
[+] [-] sergiotapia|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] uxp|13 years ago|reply
He runs a marketing company. I'm fairly certain marketing can still operate successfully using "old" technologies like Email, Twitter and the Web.
[+] [-] dave1619|13 years ago|reply
"We see so much growth that we’ll be past 100 million users in the next two years. There’s such a huge shift from desktop to mobile that the potential for growth is unlimited."
[+] [-] brador|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MatthewPhillips|13 years ago|reply
EDIT: The All Things D article sheds more light on what might really be going on here: http://allthingsd.com/20130408/confirmed-apple-kicks-appgrat...
[+] [-] kbenson|13 years ago|reply
If there were a formal review procedure with rules for when an app gets notified about scheduled future actions (and when those can be superseded when needed), as well as a procedure for fixing problems before negative actions (if there is it sure doesn't seem it's followed), then we would see less of these stories.