I wish there were more details of the brain activity in those 3 days where she 'came back from the dead' and if there are, I wish the article had shared them. Cooling seems to be a driving factor, but was there anything else going on in her brain during that time (subconsciously perhaps) that can be seen through scans or such? Hopefully the practice of trying to revive people for longer periods of time becomes standard throughout medical practices--it'd hopefully save many lives and also perhaps reveal what is actually happening (in not just the brain, but the entire body) throughout the process and how to truly revive an individual if possible--and maybe when it is appropriate.
I've heard of this general concept several times before (coming back from the dead) as there are countless stories of people seemingly dying but becoming fully conscious after varying periods of time; however, this is the first time I heard about cooling being a considerable factor. It fascinates me because it must mean there are several unearthed factors that could potentially save millions of lives.
> Hopefully the practice of trying to revive people for longer periods of time becomes standard throughout medical practices
Hopefully not until we understand what makes that these people don't loose their cognitive functions. Otherwise you'll end up with an army of people in coma. What do you do with all the resurrection failures ?
I don't want to be overly mean, but just look at the statistics. Those cases are far and few between. I have myself CPRed more than 50 people in my previous career. For all I know not a single one was able to walk out of the hospital - and the majority was declared dead on the scene.
YMMV based mainly on country (and hence willingness / ability of the general population to deliver quality CPR)
In most cases, when the patient "survives" this means that he is disabled (can not eat, can not walk, can not stand, can not do anything)
The point is that it is possible, not common. Which is incredible that the brain can go so long without oxygen and then fully recover, and that we may someday have the technology to revive people better or more often.
Think if you somehow had a machine that could revive and keep someone's brain alive regardless of how injured the rest of their body was. And if you had a whole hour or more to get to them. Not that it's likely to come around anytime soon, but still.
That fact that can happen sometimes implies that it is possible to create paramedic equipment to determine the correct rate to do the CPR and apply cooling in order to get optimal results.
I would not want to be the one that has to procure the ethical clearances for the development though!
One of my colleague's mother had cardiac arrest, received CPR right away (she was at the dinner table), and is fine now.
While this is anecdotal, it shows that perhaps the people you gave CPR to were very unlucky. Alternatively, it might be due to the delay before the CPR starts. If you're a first responder, you're probably too late unless the person had someone right next to her capable of administering CPR.
[Insert joke about how if you don't reap their children they just won't die]
I know two people who have suffered prolonged periods of no heartbeat by being cooled. One of the things the article points out is how much we don't know about life function vs non-function. As the mechanics of our bodies are deciphered the ability to "fix" them gets better. The Department of Defense published a paper on one of the differences between battlefield casualties in Vietnam vs Iraq and Afghanistan is that there are a number of things available that would otherwise result in death.
So at some point Intuitive Surgical or someone else is going to have a 'medi-doc' type device where you get stuck when you have major trauma and it will stabilize and 'fix' the trauma to the point where you can recover. Not necessarily a good place, sometimes its ok to die.
I'll be surprised if medi-vac choppers don't have units to get someone's body in and chilled during transport to increase the odds of survival in the next few years.
The days I regret having only a technical background and not going off to be a pararescue apprentice.... sigh
This is certainly one criterion to speculate on in the absence of a good understanding of conciousness, but keep in mind that waiting for info theoretic death would probably preclude most organ donation.
> Parnia is currently working with a number of hospitals on a project to investigate out of body experiences. One of the components of the study is to place objects on high shelves in operating theatres, which are only observable from above.
What kind of controls and proof would be needed for such an experiment to succeed? This experiment if it worked, would overturn everything we know about physics. If they claim a positive result, it's vastly more likely due to improper controls, people deliberately violating them to achieve the result, etc.
Some people return from a coma. Some people even return from a coma alive and well, thanks. Now we know that some neurons can recover and regenerate some parts and make new conections, and that this is a very slow process. We are talking of several milimeters/year. It depends on the grade of the damage received.
To me to loose two years dreaming for, maybe, to win the rest of your life and see again your love, sons or friends seems a good deal; even if you lose your (replaceable) money, work, car or even house in the process.
Nobody knows still who will recover and who will die. This situation is still an economic problem for the family, mainly. The "not resuscitate" option seems coward to me, and even dangerous if you find yourself in a multiple accident with a lot of victims to care for, but is your choice.
[+] [-] aashaykumar92|13 years ago|reply
I've heard of this general concept several times before (coming back from the dead) as there are countless stories of people seemingly dying but becoming fully conscious after varying periods of time; however, this is the first time I heard about cooling being a considerable factor. It fascinates me because it must mean there are several unearthed factors that could potentially save millions of lives.
[+] [-] zimbatm|13 years ago|reply
Hopefully not until we understand what makes that these people don't loose their cognitive functions. Otherwise you'll end up with an army of people in coma. What do you do with all the resurrection failures ?
[+] [-] hiddenfeatures|13 years ago|reply
In most cases, when the patient "survives" this means that he is disabled (can not eat, can not walk, can not stand, can not do anything)
[+] [-] Houshalter|13 years ago|reply
Think if you somehow had a machine that could revive and keep someone's brain alive regardless of how injured the rest of their body was. And if you had a whole hour or more to get to them. Not that it's likely to come around anytime soon, but still.
[+] [-] rcfox|13 years ago|reply
I would not want to be the one that has to procure the ethical clearances for the development though!
[+] [-] swombat|13 years ago|reply
While this is anecdotal, it shows that perhaps the people you gave CPR to were very unlucky. Alternatively, it might be due to the delay before the CPR starts. If you're a first responder, you're probably too late unless the person had someone right next to her capable of administering CPR.
[+] [-] m2mapps|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChuckMcM|13 years ago|reply
I know two people who have suffered prolonged periods of no heartbeat by being cooled. One of the things the article points out is how much we don't know about life function vs non-function. As the mechanics of our bodies are deciphered the ability to "fix" them gets better. The Department of Defense published a paper on one of the differences between battlefield casualties in Vietnam vs Iraq and Afghanistan is that there are a number of things available that would otherwise result in death.
So at some point Intuitive Surgical or someone else is going to have a 'medi-doc' type device where you get stuck when you have major trauma and it will stabilize and 'fix' the trauma to the point where you can recover. Not necessarily a good place, sometimes its ok to die.
[+] [-] toomuchtodo|13 years ago|reply
The days I regret having only a technical background and not going off to be a pararescue apprentice.... sigh
[+] [-] United857|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jessriedel|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pigou|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MichaelGG|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] StavrosK|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GotAnyMegadeth|13 years ago|reply
>push the cardiac victim hard and fast in the centre of his or her chest
>do it to the beat of Stayin' Alive by the Bee Gees
>if you have been trained in CPR then you can do mouth-to-mouth as well
[+] [-] StavrosK|13 years ago|reply
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILxjxfB4zNk
I couldn't even find it on the British Heart Foundation website.
[+] [-] pvaldes|13 years ago|reply
--- put the victim in a solid surface, NOT over a mat, out of the bed, you need either the hard floor, or a table.
> push the cardiac victim hard ...
[+] [-] Dylan16807|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pkulak|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] antonmks|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pvaldes|13 years ago|reply
Some people return from a coma. Some people even return from a coma alive and well, thanks. Now we know that some neurons can recover and regenerate some parts and make new conections, and that this is a very slow process. We are talking of several milimeters/year. It depends on the grade of the damage received.
To me to loose two years dreaming for, maybe, to win the rest of your life and see again your love, sons or friends seems a good deal; even if you lose your (replaceable) money, work, car or even house in the process.
Nobody knows still who will recover and who will die. This situation is still an economic problem for the family, mainly. The "not resuscitate" option seems coward to me, and even dangerous if you find yourself in a multiple accident with a lot of victims to care for, but is your choice.
[+] [-] progrock|13 years ago|reply
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qabOjyTNg6s
[+] [-] cmccabe|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
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