It might not be immediately clear but the article is talking about Civil Engineering which is a little unreconstructed when compared to IT.
And to progress to Chartered status for civil engineers you must have experience working on site bossing the navvies around.
When I worked for Dar Al Hadnasha (one of the big civil consultacies) we had to send out female engineers to Italy on an exchange as in the middle east it woudl have been impossible for a woman to go on site.
Misogyny is, in my experience, a function of the power dynamic in a situation. As an engineer working on site the author is placed in a position of authority, but one with no direct power over the workers that she is encountering on site. She is at the same time both threatening, due to her high status, and powerless, because her influence over the work is indirect.
I find this behavior disgusting but it is, I feel, the answer to the question posed by the author: "But they must leave at some point and see wives/daughters/sisters/mothers/random women in the street.. Is the point less about novelty or even sex, and much more about straightforward intimidation?"
It is pretty much about intimidation and resentment by some and a group dynamic that forces others to play along or ignore the situation. I can't speak to the situation in Britain but in my part of the world I can say that things have improved substantially in the last 15 or so years but there is still a long way to go. Contrary to what anyone might tell you though, it is not a case of "boys will be boys" - the fact of the matter is that the management and foremen can change the culture if they want to, I have seen it happen, someone in charge just needs to have the resolve to say it won't be tolerated and actually act on it.
Kind of puts the "sexism in tech" discussion in perspective. These guys make the Mad Men lot sound respectful.
Here's a simple way they could deal with that - create a new company (or even just a new department within the company), hire only civilised people, fire anyone who proves to be an uncivilised jerk, and slowly grow that department/company to take over the company/industry because it's not full of retards...
These guys are disrespectful, insulting and pathetic, but at least she got the job and none of the anecdotes suggest they assumed she was incapable of doing that job.
That's already two steps up from Mad Men territory.
And beside the crudeness, which is more a social class difference than anything else, I don't see how this differs from the reports of sexism in tech. At least she's got the (albeit clumsy and inadequate) support of her employer. They weren't advertising job posts for "brogrammers".
Being less crude than construction workers is not exactly a high standard for tech.
The guys (well, some of them) are discussing her treatment behind her back. One of them even apologizes every time he swears in a meeting. That means even the ones who care honestly don't know how women want to be treated in a workplace. (Of course, part of the problem is that they are constructing some kind of universal ruleset without considering her as an individual.)
It seems that no one knew which guys were the jerks before because they acted reasonably when women weren't around. I think the same thing happened in tech circles. There are some major assholes and even creepy stalkers that don't really show themselves until women show up, so they go unnoticed for years by the male majority.
I would love it if there was a way of testing these things out. I've a sneaking suspicion (based on absolutely no reason) that the company 'full or retards' would outperform the company of nice, respectful people. But the real world is a big messy place.
I will probably get shunned to death for asking this, but I must ask.
The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another? Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups.
Reading this, it doesn't feel so much like the terrible sexism it's portrayed as, but more like reading about a clash of cultures. This is how groups of men organise themselves. I understand it's jarring for women and that women do it differently, but still, all I see here are men treating a woman exactly like they treat other men.
By the sound of it, she's actually being accepted into the group. Hazing is always the first step.
> Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups.
You may want to consider hanging out with a different crowd...
Also, this is not "hanging out", this is the workplace. Different standards should apply. Bullying and intimidation in the workplace is unacceptable for any reason, and in this case it's both bullying and sexism.
Yes, I know this is how certain groups of men behave. It also happens to be the same men who's jobs are in danger of permanently disappearing, and this is exactly one of the main reasons nobody gives a shit.
Well, it's not exactly the same, is it? Firstly, when straight men make gay jokes at each other, everyone knows it isn't true, it's just a joke. Straight sexual jokes are more likely to have a component of truth to them, which makes them must less pleasant to receive. Jokes between men are part of how men establish pecking orders, but sexual jokes are part of how men signal their attraction to women. Unwanted sexual advances feel unpleasantly intrusive. They're supposed to feel that way. It's a part of human sexuality - we're all strongly motivated to push for our own sexual autonomy.
Secondly, there's the fact that these jokes single her out. She's the only one getting sexual and sexist jokes, so that makes her a special target. If it were all those men making constant gay and sissy jokes to a gay man, you wouldn't think twice about calling it bullying. Hazing becomes bullying if one person gets singled out.
Bullying with a sexual component is straight up sexual harassment. Maybe it isn't meant that way, but that's exactly what it is. A lot of bullying exists because dumb people don't think about what they are doing. "It's just a joke," they say. But it's not. It's the same joke, every day, from everyone. This is exactly the kind of situation where an employer has to step in and tell everyone to grow up and leave it at home. And when I say they have to, I mean it's the law, and they're going to get sued.
Also, the less direct sexism the writer faces show that she is not being treated like the men. The assumption that she is lost or trespassing because she is a lone woman on a building site is pretty sexist. Sure, women working on building sites are rare, but so are women getting lost on building sites. The whole asking if she was "fit" e-mail conversation was cringe inducing - and completely not how a man would be treated.
>But how is it any different than how men in groups behave towards one another?
Men do not typically fear sexual violence from each other.
Not that the men on that site were necessarily going to rape the engineer, but it was certainly orders of magnitude more likely than them raping each other.
For the record I understand your point and you might be right, she may well be being accepted, but I don't think it's really reasonable that she should just feel OK with it.
EDIT: and tbh in an ideal world men wouldn't have to face "hazing" (bullying) either. It's a pretty poor justification for women having to cope with a worse variant.
Sissy jokes are also sexist, by the way. It's a great example of how sexism can affect both men and women equally. Sissy jokes are gender policing. The implication is that being a man and being feminine is incompatible. They exclude feminine men.
All the jokes and insults you listed are extremely problematic and most certainly also deserve our attention (though that is most certainly not a valid criticism of this article, no single article has the obligation to mention every problem).
I don't know of any group of men in a workplace that would sing songs at random men passing by, or see a man dressed for a particular job role and ask them what they are doing there all by themselves. She was obviously treated differently than they would treat each other.
I know this is a little off-topic but I spent a while wondering why the article ("I'm not scared of you any more") bore no resemblance to the title ("Too fit for the role").
Turns out I dismissed the popup window automatically because 100% of popup windows are trying to sell social media experience extravaganzas and must be removed to see the actual content.
Turns out this blogging software shows its main content as a superimposed popup/lightbox thing.
So, if you end up reading the wrong article, perhaps you clicked close on the popup before it loaded.
Anyone else notice that 'The Vagenda' has a lot of articles that are aimed at men being jerks? I think any man reading this site will not have an accurate understanding as to what any writer is trying to convey. - My opinion on this article: If you don't like it leave; there are plenty of establishments that'll treat you the way you want to be treated. You just have to go through all the BS to figure out what you like and it obviously isn't this.
> Anyone else notice that 'The Vagenda' has a lot of articles that are aimed at men being jerks?
I knew immediately by reading the domain that it was going to be a feminist leaning blog, and that's totally fine. Perhaps that's what their content is based on. Unfortunately there's lots of examples of men being jerks, so they have a massive grab bag to pull content from.
> If you don't like it leave
That's always the easy answer, and it's unrealistic and unfair. You don't know the conditions of the author. Maybe they have a boatload of debt or are in a situation where they need stability. Moving jobs is always a risk because there are things like probation periods. Even if you are good at what you do, a probation period is still scary, even more so if you have dependents.
Sexism, bad. But let's keep our heads on straight here.
Just because someone treats you like shit, and you're a woman, doesn't mean it's sexism.
1. Maybe they treat her like shit because she's new, and the feminine stuff is just one reason to rag on her. If she was a tall guy, they'd probably make fun of that too.
2. Maybe they treat her like shit because, for some reason, despite all this, she hasn't actually asked them to stop -- just complained about it on the Internet
A lot of people will get angry at me for this, because sexism is a very real problem.
Damn, I was just wondering about this the other day. I.e., how the software world compares to the engineering world. Seems my guesses were right in this case.
Yep. Sounds like shop talk--amazing how things at machine shops, oil rigs, and construction sites can be very similar at times. The women I know that work in any of those fields tend to either ignore it or join in--depending on their mood.
One wonders how things would be different were roles reversed--indeed, what sort of talk was common on factory floors during the world wars?
I did once in my youth avoid one end of the office were I briefly worked, for there was a mouthy, and by her own account sexually adventurous young woman--who was free in voicing her opinion of my looks. I used to run home from that office a couple of days a week, but made damn sure never to exit past her work area. That was a third of a century ago, and stands out in my mind, so the reverse case is apparently not that common.
Do women freely express their opinions of men among themselves? Certainly. But it is my desire and care to avoid overhearing them.
You are a sexually attractive woman in a place where sexually attractive women are scarce. In almost any other context you would get substancial benefits for that like more promotions, job opportunities and more invitations to events than the average woman. But we will not see you complaining about that when it happens, don't we?
[+] [-] walshemj|13 years ago|reply
It might not be immediately clear but the article is talking about Civil Engineering which is a little unreconstructed when compared to IT.
And to progress to Chartered status for civil engineers you must have experience working on site bossing the navvies around.
When I worked for Dar Al Hadnasha (one of the big civil consultacies) we had to send out female engineers to Italy on an exchange as in the middle east it woudl have been impossible for a woman to go on site.
[+] [-] JamisonM|13 years ago|reply
I find this behavior disgusting but it is, I feel, the answer to the question posed by the author: "But they must leave at some point and see wives/daughters/sisters/mothers/random women in the street.. Is the point less about novelty or even sex, and much more about straightforward intimidation?"
It is pretty much about intimidation and resentment by some and a group dynamic that forces others to play along or ignore the situation. I can't speak to the situation in Britain but in my part of the world I can say that things have improved substantially in the last 15 or so years but there is still a long way to go. Contrary to what anyone might tell you though, it is not a case of "boys will be boys" - the fact of the matter is that the management and foremen can change the culture if they want to, I have seen it happen, someone in charge just needs to have the resolve to say it won't be tolerated and actually act on it.
[+] [-] swombat|13 years ago|reply
Here's a simple way they could deal with that - create a new company (or even just a new department within the company), hire only civilised people, fire anyone who proves to be an uncivilised jerk, and slowly grow that department/company to take over the company/industry because it's not full of retards...
[+] [-] mattdeboard|13 years ago|reply
Complaining about sexism then using "retards" as a pejorative is just too ironic.
[+] [-] onemorepassword|13 years ago|reply
That's already two steps up from Mad Men territory.
And beside the crudeness, which is more a social class difference than anything else, I don't see how this differs from the reports of sexism in tech. At least she's got the (albeit clumsy and inadequate) support of her employer. They weren't advertising job posts for "brogrammers".
Being less crude than construction workers is not exactly a high standard for tech.
[+] [-] sp332|13 years ago|reply
It seems that no one knew which guys were the jerks before because they acted reasonably when women weren't around. I think the same thing happened in tech circles. There are some major assholes and even creepy stalkers that don't really show themselves until women show up, so they go unnoticed for years by the male majority.
[+] [-] treerock|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Swizec|13 years ago|reply
The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another? Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups.
Reading this, it doesn't feel so much like the terrible sexism it's portrayed as, but more like reading about a clash of cultures. This is how groups of men organise themselves. I understand it's jarring for women and that women do it differently, but still, all I see here are men treating a woman exactly like they treat other men.
By the sound of it, she's actually being accepted into the group. Hazing is always the first step.
[+] [-] onemorepassword|13 years ago|reply
You may want to consider hanging out with a different crowd...
Also, this is not "hanging out", this is the workplace. Different standards should apply. Bullying and intimidation in the workplace is unacceptable for any reason, and in this case it's both bullying and sexism.
Yes, I know this is how certain groups of men behave. It also happens to be the same men who's jobs are in danger of permanently disappearing, and this is exactly one of the main reasons nobody gives a shit.
[+] [-] gertertsgsdfa|13 years ago|reply
Secondly, there's the fact that these jokes single her out. She's the only one getting sexual and sexist jokes, so that makes her a special target. If it were all those men making constant gay and sissy jokes to a gay man, you wouldn't think twice about calling it bullying. Hazing becomes bullying if one person gets singled out.
Bullying with a sexual component is straight up sexual harassment. Maybe it isn't meant that way, but that's exactly what it is. A lot of bullying exists because dumb people don't think about what they are doing. "It's just a joke," they say. But it's not. It's the same joke, every day, from everyone. This is exactly the kind of situation where an employer has to step in and tell everyone to grow up and leave it at home. And when I say they have to, I mean it's the law, and they're going to get sued.
Also, the less direct sexism the writer faces show that she is not being treated like the men. The assumption that she is lost or trespassing because she is a lone woman on a building site is pretty sexist. Sure, women working on building sites are rare, but so are women getting lost on building sites. The whole asking if she was "fit" e-mail conversation was cringe inducing - and completely not how a man would be treated.
[+] [-] JonnieCache|13 years ago|reply
Men do not typically fear sexual violence from each other.
Not that the men on that site were necessarily going to rape the engineer, but it was certainly orders of magnitude more likely than them raping each other.
For the record I understand your point and you might be right, she may well be being accepted, but I don't think it's really reasonable that she should just feel OK with it.
EDIT: and tbh in an ideal world men wouldn't have to face "hazing" (bullying) either. It's a pretty poor justification for women having to cope with a worse variant.
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tome|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kmfrk|13 years ago|reply
What kind of fucking zoo do you work at?
[+] [-] arrrg|13 years ago|reply
All the jokes and insults you listed are extremely problematic and most certainly also deserve our attention (though that is most certainly not a valid criticism of this article, no single article has the obligation to mention every problem).
[+] [-] Botono|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mdpye|13 years ago|reply
I think you mean "men physically smaller than themselves". This is how morons, not men, organise themselves.
[+] [-] waterlion|13 years ago|reply
Turns out I dismissed the popup window automatically because 100% of popup windows are trying to sell social media experience extravaganzas and must be removed to see the actual content.
Turns out this blogging software shows its main content as a superimposed popup/lightbox thing.
So, if you end up reading the wrong article, perhaps you clicked close on the popup before it loaded.
[+] [-] jbcurtin2|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thezoid|13 years ago|reply
I knew immediately by reading the domain that it was going to be a feminist leaning blog, and that's totally fine. Perhaps that's what their content is based on. Unfortunately there's lots of examples of men being jerks, so they have a massive grab bag to pull content from.
> If you don't like it leave
That's always the easy answer, and it's unrealistic and unfair. You don't know the conditions of the author. Maybe they have a boatload of debt or are in a situation where they need stability. Moving jobs is always a risk because there are things like probation periods. Even if you are good at what you do, a probation period is still scary, even more so if you have dependents.
[+] [-] SZenith|13 years ago|reply
Just because someone treats you like shit, and you're a woman, doesn't mean it's sexism.
1. Maybe they treat her like shit because she's new, and the feminine stuff is just one reason to rag on her. If she was a tall guy, they'd probably make fun of that too.
2. Maybe they treat her like shit because, for some reason, despite all this, she hasn't actually asked them to stop -- just complained about it on the Internet
A lot of people will get angry at me for this, because sexism is a very real problem.
But not everything is fucking sexism.
[+] [-] digitalWestie|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smurph|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] angersock|13 years ago|reply
One wonders how things would be different were roles reversed--indeed, what sort of talk was common on factory floors during the world wars?
[+] [-] cafard|13 years ago|reply
Do women freely express their opinions of men among themselves? Certainly. But it is my desire and care to avoid overhearing them.
[+] [-] scott_w|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] treerock|13 years ago|reply
"A female council boss has been suspended for biting a 24-year-old junior employee so hard that she drew blood through his underwear.
"The worker was taken to hospital, after the incident, for a tetanus injection.
"A colleague called the bite a horseplay that got out of hand."
http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/boss-bites...
[+] [-] Swizec|13 years ago|reply
At least in my experience.
[+] [-] walshemj|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] antihero|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] michaelfeathers|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cafard|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ivanca|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] adaml_623|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] locofacetwice|13 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] omd|13 years ago|reply