This is not necessarily a good thing for the web development field. This is how you end up with people with large gaps in their knowledge responsible for parts of your codebase.
To be clear, it is entirely possible to be self-taught and learn everything you need to know. I'm self-taught, and I like to think I've filled in most of the gaps by now. I've also worked with a few self-taught people who make me feel like a novice.
However, I've also encountered numerous self-taught people, working in industry on real projects, who have gaps in their knowledge significant enough to cripple a company if left unsupervised. Things like not knowing what SQL injection is, not knowing what version control is, never having heard of unit tests, etc. College curricula in other fields generally make sure that you at least encounter every essential part of the field. Without that safety net, you have to do that research yourself, and many self-taught people don't take that extra step.
EDIT: Judging from the comments I need to clarify. I'm not saying that CS programs in college teach you these things. I'm saying that in other fields, your college curriculum will make sure you encounter everything you need to.
>Things like not knowing what SQL injection is, not knowing what version control is, never having heard of unit tests, etc.
These things are more commonly learned in the field than in school. When people don't know, teach. Don't sit there and gripe about how they might cripple the company.
Your anecdotes are irrelevant. There are just as many people with CS degrees who would get stumped on one of the three things above. Web development doesn't even require a CS degree. You just need to know your way around databases, patterns, be neat and meticulous, and write code that's generally more efficient than O(n^2).
You can get a CS degree and never, ever encounter SQL injection, unit testing, or serious version control. Hell, you can get an MS without worrying about those things.
I just had the experience of interviewing about 10 grad students from a computer science program that's relatively highly regarded (definitely not top 10, but most would associate CS with the school).
Only one of the candidates was able to explain any meaningful difference between GET and POST in HTTP.
I don't know that universities are places that are likely to impart this type of knowledge in their grads.
Actually, I don't think it's as much as self-taught vs. formal CS training at a 4-year university vs. some sort of vocational schooling vs. whatever...
I think it's more the question of: what is the driving motivation for getting into the industry in the first place?
The best developers I've worked with and have had the most respect for were ones that have had a lifelong love for computers and computing technology, reflected through things like always tinkering with software (and even hardware), enjoyment in building their own linux boxes, and/or having the proverbial "I've been programming since I was 5" type of story. In my experience, I've found that these type of candidates have the highest chance for success, regardless of the type of formal training that they may or may not have had.
The ones that I'm a bit more suspect on are the ones that think about getting into this industry mostly because of articles like this that focus on the "OMG he's making $$$ 6-figures", but that have never shown much of a prior interest for software, programming, etc.. Basically, for folks in this group, it seems like they get excited for coding only after they've heard stories like this and maybe started checking out Codecademy or decided to take CS 101 because it fulfilled a core / distribution requirement at their 4-year university.
Am I saying that the folks in the second group are not going to be good programmers? By all means no. But I'm just saying as a level of chance vs. risk, I feel that those in the first group have a higher chance of producing as a quality software engineer than those in the second group.
I am not so sure. I am at one of the top technological universities in my country and it's definitely possible to get a master's degree in computer science or computer engineering with great grades without having ever touched either version control or knowing what SQL injections are. Heck, both introduction to web applications and databases are elective courses.
Just like the article says, many academical institutions move too slowly to keep up.
I think a passion to learn how things actually work and to do things "the right way" and at the same time GTD is what really takes you somewhere.
As a fellow self-taught software guy, I agree with you. The tricky part about self-learning are the unknown unknowns - you can't teach yourself version control if you've never even heard of version control. A good CS education should at least expose you to such concepts.
The biggest thing I missed out on are the bread-and-butter topics of CS - data structures and algorithms. I program robots now, and if I had known about graph theory a few years earlier, the software that I write would have been a lot more sophisticated now.
I know it's not precise, but most people parse "six figures" as $100,000. "Multiple six figures" = $200k or more and "more than (six figures)" just means > $100k. The reason this happens is because it's often considered gauche to talk about income directly.
I know it's imprecise and annoying, but it's a lot faster to adapt to the way the rest of the world speaks than to try to get them to change.
While a degree isn't necessary to become a developer, this article makes it sound like the average person can pick up a "how-to" book and become an employable web developer in a weekend or two. If this is true, I'd worry about the quality of developers joining the workforce.
> To say this occupation is attainable for anyone though is a bit of stretch. It still requires some math chops and long hours of practice.
> "You have to be a self-starter to go along with this," Kenefick said. "In the beginning, it was literally all day and all night, day after day, I was practicing and building up my portfolio. I'm pretty sure it's more work than going to college."
To be fair, that quote is right at the end of the article.
I think you overestimate the quality of developer in the outside, "non-hacker-news" world. Labor is always the biggest outlay management worries about; if they don't have technical experience, there are tons of small to medium sized companies that will hire someone at 20$ or 30$ an hour with no degree to bang out bad GWT or jQuery.
In the enterprise ( or small enterprise ) world, when was the last time a web dev needed to write a bloom filter in Go?
Missing at the end of the title 'as long as you're willing to work your ass off getting good at it'. There might be a shortage in the talent pool but I can't see lots of companies taking on crap devs to put bums in seats.
These articles seem to frequently discount the hard work part of the equation, and make it sound like anyone can pick up a keyboard and get a job.
The "no degree, no problem" idea isn't backed up by my personal experience. I wish it were that easy, but I still find myself struggling to break in. I've been told by temp agencies that my associates degree is worthless here as well.
I wish I had known over a year ago that the most important thing is having enough savings and time to start with so you can build up a portfolio, and disregard the sentiment that if you don't know algos then you're second-rate and don't cut it.
For awhile I've been in a position where it's hard to focus on projects that would make me stand out because I'm distracted working weird hours part-time for minimum wage. While I'm getting more contract work, it still is just a trickle, and seems to be more of a distraction than it's worth sometimes. Additionally, most entry-level positions I've encountered seem to want someone who is a designer/developer hybrid rather than a developer.
I live in Washington, DC, so it could just be that the market here has a enough of a concentration of CS grads and experienced developers to not need to bother with people who are junior and lack a CS background.
"Nobody really cares about your education in this field -- it's can you do it, or can you not?"
Is this unique to software development? Like, if I wanted to break into the fast paced world of industrial fastener sales would prospective employers be worried about my undergraduate degree? My experience on both sides of the interview table has been that after a few (2-3?) years of working in a field, your professional experience counts for much more than your academic credentials. I don't think it's unique to web development.
No, but if you wanted to actually design the industrial fasteners your education would probably be questioned. That's more akin to software development.
Sounds a lot like my situation, except I didn't drop out, I finished out the associates degree so I could take the few programming classes I wanted. It took my two years, I got a little bit of college under my belt, got a job before I finished, and was only 18 when I graduated.
I think experience and skill level speak higher than a degree in this field. I have hired people that don't have a degree, because they have a nice portfolio and have the skills I need.
I'm studying software engineering and also working as a junior web developer. Realistically speaking I'd have to quit my job to be able to finish my school. The problem is, I view school as a waste of time. Teachers don't know about SQL injection and don't teach unit testing. I learn more efficiently on my own. It's scary how big gaps there'd be in my knowledge if I relied only on the stuff school taught me. The reason I applied to a developer position in the first place was boredom in school(and financial stress). At work I've been learning a lot more and IMO worked on more interesting projects than most of my class mates at their internships.
It's school or work for me but I fear that lacking a bachelor's degree means I can't advance to more challenging programming positions or that nobody would hire me outside of my current company.
Nothing would stop me from starting my own business tho.
A lot of people ask my why I never got a degree. As a .net web developer I don't wan't so spend 4 years part time (no money for fulltime) studying java, because that's what you mostly learn in our country.
Edit: I maybe should add theres nothing wrong with java. It's just not my choice that's all. And in my country (switzerland) the education system looks little bit different. I started a education at age 16 as software a developer. 2 days school, 3 days work at a software company for four years. Now you add some years of experience and there you are with no degree.. and that's why I wrote my first statement
I see two sides of this. My degree is in applied math - the only comp sci I ever took was 101 - 102, plus one data structures course. I could do basic dev ops or web dev from now until the cows come home with 2 years in the industry. Computer Science was not a requirement at all.
On the flip side, I get frustrated by my lack of theoretical knowledge on things I deeply wish I knew. I've never taken an OS course, or a databases course. I don't feel like I know Big O as well as I should. I don't know ANYTHING about graphics. I don't know ANYTHING about AI work, or compilers, or anything beyond basic *nix sockets.
Right now I spend my days trying to do linear algebra in the cloud on demand. And I would be willing to bet a years worth of my paycheck that if I had doubled up in computer science I would be better at my job than I am right now.
While I don't disagree with you that there is an opportunity cost of education, it is nearly always better to invest in yourself at an early age[1]. Also, I'm coming from a U.S. point of view, might be different in other countries.
Also, after my time at university I noticed that I didn't need to be a .NET or PHP developer. I was a well rounded computer scientist with the capacity to learn anything I set out to, which is the point of degree. I learned what I wanted in my free time, the technologies you use shouldn't define you.
You might be surprised how little time you'd spend studying Java. I compared the curriculum at the little private college I graduated from almost a decade ago to the current curriculum of the local state-U today and you can escape typically with about 3 classes of pure software coding, the rest of the degree is "other computer stuff" aside from the liberal arts. For me it was two semesters of C++ and believe it or not, COBOL. I already had a job in the field and wanted to expand my horizons, so "learning" what I already do at work would have completely missed the point. COBOL was in fact a total trip and pretty wild experience, although I'm glad I don't have to earn a living coding it.
Over the last decade not much has changed. You'll have a data structures type class although most grads seem to completely forget everything taught. Typically some kind of theory of languages/theory of computing/computability/scaling. Everyone still suffers thru intro to databases complete with explanations of codd-normal forms and drawing E-R diagrams and such. Everyone suffers thru an intro to operating systems class. Everyone has some sort of intro to algorithms, aka welcome to Knuth, class.
"learn to code java" is probably less than 10% of the total class time. All the upper level classes I took demanded some form of working code but they didn't care what language. Remember its education not job training. They thought psuedocode was fine on tests.
Three notable changes:
1) No more discrete math. Huh? Even with discrete math most grads seem mystified by multiple simple conditionals. Maybe its rolled into the first lectures of theory of computing or whatever.
2) No more required systems analysis. Maybe its kinda rolled into "software engineering" ...perhaps.
3) Capstone project senior year type things seem very popular now a days. I donno if that's in addition to, or in replacement of, the liberal arts survey class I had to take in my last semester.
A massive demand for web development combined with a low supply of competent engineers leads to high salaries relative to the amount of time you need to invest to command such a salary. This leads to entities like Dev Bootcamp and Coursera charging to provide the necessary training, they can also command a hefty bonus for making a hiring referral. An influx of newly minted developers enter the market, prices go down as the supply curve slides to the right.
I think a more appropriate title would simply be "get paid lots of money for working hard and being good at something that's in demand" but it's not nearly as catchy. Seemingly, what's the case in the job market is that the degree is just the minimum required whereas your catalog of work shows that you weren't just following the trend of "fast growing/unfilled computer jobs". It seemed to work for me...
Without a bachelor's degree, you can be quite a good developer. I've seen plenty of such people, but they've all had several years of self-learning and experience, often substantially more than their college-trained comrades.
I wish the article would get that across - in lieu of a degree, you had to have spent years programming on your own time.
[+] [-] nbouscal|13 years ago|reply
To be clear, it is entirely possible to be self-taught and learn everything you need to know. I'm self-taught, and I like to think I've filled in most of the gaps by now. I've also worked with a few self-taught people who make me feel like a novice.
However, I've also encountered numerous self-taught people, working in industry on real projects, who have gaps in their knowledge significant enough to cripple a company if left unsupervised. Things like not knowing what SQL injection is, not knowing what version control is, never having heard of unit tests, etc. College curricula in other fields generally make sure that you at least encounter every essential part of the field. Without that safety net, you have to do that research yourself, and many self-taught people don't take that extra step.
EDIT: Judging from the comments I need to clarify. I'm not saying that CS programs in college teach you these things. I'm saying that in other fields, your college curriculum will make sure you encounter everything you need to.
[+] [-] readme|13 years ago|reply
These things are more commonly learned in the field than in school. When people don't know, teach. Don't sit there and gripe about how they might cripple the company.
Your anecdotes are irrelevant. There are just as many people with CS degrees who would get stumped on one of the three things above. Web development doesn't even require a CS degree. You just need to know your way around databases, patterns, be neat and meticulous, and write code that's generally more efficient than O(n^2).
After all, you admit that you're self-taught.
universities are no silver bullet.
[+] [-] dgabriel|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jeffasinger|13 years ago|reply
Only one of the candidates was able to explain any meaningful difference between GET and POST in HTTP.
I don't know that universities are places that are likely to impart this type of knowledge in their grads.
[+] [-] mikeho1999|13 years ago|reply
I think it's more the question of: what is the driving motivation for getting into the industry in the first place?
The best developers I've worked with and have had the most respect for were ones that have had a lifelong love for computers and computing technology, reflected through things like always tinkering with software (and even hardware), enjoyment in building their own linux boxes, and/or having the proverbial "I've been programming since I was 5" type of story. In my experience, I've found that these type of candidates have the highest chance for success, regardless of the type of formal training that they may or may not have had.
The ones that I'm a bit more suspect on are the ones that think about getting into this industry mostly because of articles like this that focus on the "OMG he's making $$$ 6-figures", but that have never shown much of a prior interest for software, programming, etc.. Basically, for folks in this group, it seems like they get excited for coding only after they've heard stories like this and maybe started checking out Codecademy or decided to take CS 101 because it fulfilled a core / distribution requirement at their 4-year university.
Am I saying that the folks in the second group are not going to be good programmers? By all means no. But I'm just saying as a level of chance vs. risk, I feel that those in the first group have a higher chance of producing as a quality software engineer than those in the second group.
[+] [-] Legogris|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yen223|13 years ago|reply
The biggest thing I missed out on are the bread-and-butter topics of CS - data structures and algorithms. I program robots now, and if I had known about graph theory a few years earlier, the software that I write would have been a lot more sophisticated now.
[+] [-] hackerboos|13 years ago|reply
As a graduate, university isn't much better. Fellow students didn't even know what version control was.
[+] [-] ronaldx|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] citricsquid|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SatvikBeri|13 years ago|reply
I know it's imprecise and annoying, but it's a lot faster to adapt to the way the rest of the world speaks than to try to get them to change.
[+] [-] jonknee|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icatchcows|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scotth|13 years ago|reply
> To say this occupation is attainable for anyone though is a bit of stretch. It still requires some math chops and long hours of practice.
> "You have to be a self-starter to go along with this," Kenefick said. "In the beginning, it was literally all day and all night, day after day, I was practicing and building up my portfolio. I'm pretty sure it's more work than going to college."
To be fair, that quote is right at the end of the article.
[+] [-] penland|13 years ago|reply
In the enterprise ( or small enterprise ) world, when was the last time a web dev needed to write a bloom filter in Go?
[+] [-] nicholassmith|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheCowboy|13 years ago|reply
The "no degree, no problem" idea isn't backed up by my personal experience. I wish it were that easy, but I still find myself struggling to break in. I've been told by temp agencies that my associates degree is worthless here as well.
I wish I had known over a year ago that the most important thing is having enough savings and time to start with so you can build up a portfolio, and disregard the sentiment that if you don't know algos then you're second-rate and don't cut it.
For awhile I've been in a position where it's hard to focus on projects that would make me stand out because I'm distracted working weird hours part-time for minimum wage. While I'm getting more contract work, it still is just a trickle, and seems to be more of a distraction than it's worth sometimes. Additionally, most entry-level positions I've encountered seem to want someone who is a designer/developer hybrid rather than a developer.
I live in Washington, DC, so it could just be that the market here has a enough of a concentration of CS grads and experienced developers to not need to bother with people who are junior and lack a CS background.
[+] [-] minimax|13 years ago|reply
Is this unique to software development? Like, if I wanted to break into the fast paced world of industrial fastener sales would prospective employers be worried about my undergraduate degree? My experience on both sides of the interview table has been that after a few (2-3?) years of working in a field, your professional experience counts for much more than your academic credentials. I don't think it's unique to web development.
[+] [-] jonknee|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryhanson|13 years ago|reply
I think experience and skill level speak higher than a degree in this field. I have hired people that don't have a degree, because they have a nice portfolio and have the skills I need.
[+] [-] CapitalistCartr|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spankermonkey|13 years ago|reply
It's school or work for me but I fear that lacking a bachelor's degree means I can't advance to more challenging programming positions or that nobody would hire me outside of my current company.
Nothing would stop me from starting my own business tho.
[+] [-] patatino|13 years ago|reply
Edit: I maybe should add theres nothing wrong with java. It's just not my choice that's all. And in my country (switzerland) the education system looks little bit different. I started a education at age 16 as software a developer. 2 days school, 3 days work at a software company for four years. Now you add some years of experience and there you are with no degree.. and that's why I wrote my first statement
[+] [-] penland|13 years ago|reply
On the flip side, I get frustrated by my lack of theoretical knowledge on things I deeply wish I knew. I've never taken an OS course, or a databases course. I don't feel like I know Big O as well as I should. I don't know ANYTHING about graphics. I don't know ANYTHING about AI work, or compilers, or anything beyond basic *nix sockets.
Right now I spend my days trying to do linear algebra in the cloud on demand. And I would be willing to bet a years worth of my paycheck that if I had doubled up in computer science I would be better at my job than I am right now.
[+] [-] steven_h|13 years ago|reply
Also, after my time at university I noticed that I didn't need to be a .NET or PHP developer. I was a well rounded computer scientist with the capacity to learn anything I set out to, which is the point of degree. I learned what I wanted in my free time, the technologies you use shouldn't define you.
[1] http://crossbridge1.blogspot.com/2011/09/does-education-pay-...
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jonheller|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ikkyu|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] VLM|13 years ago|reply
Over the last decade not much has changed. You'll have a data structures type class although most grads seem to completely forget everything taught. Typically some kind of theory of languages/theory of computing/computability/scaling. Everyone still suffers thru intro to databases complete with explanations of codd-normal forms and drawing E-R diagrams and such. Everyone suffers thru an intro to operating systems class. Everyone has some sort of intro to algorithms, aka welcome to Knuth, class.
"learn to code java" is probably less than 10% of the total class time. All the upper level classes I took demanded some form of working code but they didn't care what language. Remember its education not job training. They thought psuedocode was fine on tests.
Three notable changes: 1) No more discrete math. Huh? Even with discrete math most grads seem mystified by multiple simple conditionals. Maybe its rolled into the first lectures of theory of computing or whatever. 2) No more required systems analysis. Maybe its kinda rolled into "software engineering" ...perhaps. 3) Capstone project senior year type things seem very popular now a days. I donno if that's in addition to, or in replacement of, the liberal arts survey class I had to take in my last semester.
[+] [-] sabalaba|13 years ago|reply
A massive demand for web development combined with a low supply of competent engineers leads to high salaries relative to the amount of time you need to invest to command such a salary. This leads to entities like Dev Bootcamp and Coursera charging to provide the necessary training, they can also command a hefty bonus for making a hiring referral. An influx of newly minted developers enter the market, prices go down as the supply curve slides to the right.
[+] [-] MechaJDI|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] munchbunny|13 years ago|reply
I wish the article would get that across - in lieu of a degree, you had to have spent years programming on your own time.
[+] [-] sanxiyn|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bluedino|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jere|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zavulon|13 years ago|reply