Erdogan government is an oppressive government, with increasing authoritarian and antidemocratic politics, and his supporters include a lot of Islamic organizations, comprising elements of Al Kaida, Hizbullah and other salafist organizations and they all have strong antisemitic tone. This government recently released all the members of Islamic terrorist organizations, who aggressively killed many innocent people. So watch out other comments, here, mainly many supporters of the government, are here to just make a false impression of peaceful environmental demonstrations, violently oppressed.
Be careful. some supporters of the government, are even forming Nazi SS style mobs to attack demonstrating families. People like @cup, are cleverly embedded opinion makers, who are there to hide the authoritarian, regime. Erdogan yesterday called, Twitter a curse and social media an enemy. So be careful about commenters here.
With all due respect, cup is a long time, respected member of this community. You are a new member who has only ever posted this comment. Is it really appropriate of accusing somebody of being a "cleverly embedded opinion maker" when you come across as exactly that, and they do not?
Your comment is full of emotionally sensational discourse, and very short on data or sources to support it.
Furthermore, you attack a fellow HNer (@cup) and brand him a "Nazi" for sharing sensible argument, instead of addressing the points he makes.
The recent discussions around Turkey on HN, and the fact that comments like yours are getting upvoted, speaks heaps of the direction this site is heading towards.
Whatever is happening in Turkey, things don't get solved by a revolution. A revolution is the worst thing that can happen to a country at this time. I'll list here a few of key reasons:
1. Vulnerability: A loss of the leader will cause wide internal and external vulnerability. Any party will try to somehow colonize the vulnerable country which doesn't have a clear leader or a clear path. Certainly, for their economic, political and geographic benefits.
2. Economic deterioration: It's even worse in Turkey. Loss of Touristic money flow will cause the economy to deteriorate and joblessness to increase, increasing instability and feeding that loop.
3. Less Freedom and democracy: Indeed, a revolution on the streets doesn't bring democracy or free speech. If anything, it encourages extremists to kill/censor/stop the other party.
Seeing how things developed in Tunisia in the last 3 years, I'll advise against revolutions at any time. And I'm talking about peaceful ones.
Be very careful when it comes to issues about Turkey. There is a very interesting and subtle social media campaign backed by yet to be seen figures who are making this a much bigger/disingenious issue than it really is. The interesting facts you should realise are that Erdogan and his political party won the last three elctions, increasing their support by about 3 - 5% each round. Their last win saw them secure 49.4% of the vote, which means over three terms of power they've actually increased their support base by 15%.
So why are there protests?
Well theyre not about a tree unsurprisingly. There are 3 political factions who have subverted the initial protest, the BDP, CHP and TKP parties which are socialist, communist, secular or a combination of them (TKP being the most extreme).
Surprisingly, these three parties were recently holding protest against Erdogans decision to allow refugees from Syria to enter Turkey. Yes, the three parties who are apparantly looking after the wellbeing of trees in a park don't want refugees of war entering Turkey (though no one mentiosn the fact that these three parties also support Assad because the Baath party is/was communist and secular too).
Theres also the DHKP which is an extremist communist (terrorist?) party which hates the fact that the leader of Turkey is a practising Muslim and that Islam is seeing a revival in Turkey.
So try to read between the lines and see that theres more to the story than trees. Redditors and HN folks seem to be falling hook line and sinker for a fantastic marketing astro turfing campaign.
Just a few more pointers. During erdogans reign he improved the minimum wage by 500%, allowed farmers to access capital at a 5% interest rate as opposed to the initial 54% and paid off the last installment towards the IMF freeing them of all their debts. For the first time in modern era, Turkey now owes no money to the IMF and is the 15th largets economy in the world.
Turkey does have problems, but theres more to this story that meets the eye and people need to wonder why and how this has blown up so successfully on social media sites.
This is ridiculous. I'm at work so I can't do a point by point refutation but I will later.
It's obvious that you know more than the average person on this subject, but you're falling into the trap of thinking that just because you know some things, you have a good (or even the best) picture of what is happening.
First of all, the main significant thing about these protests is that it was the FIRST large scale protest to not be organized by any political group(s) and instead is grassroots. People just started messaging each other and walking outside of their houses to support others. A day or two later, parties finally started organizing but the protest is nonpartisan. I have never otherwise seen a TKP (left-communist party) and MHP (ultra-nationalist right) flags flying together EVER! There are also people from Laz, soccer teams, Kurds, workers unions, LGBT groups. I am getting daily updates from almost all of my friends who are taking part in the protests. The idea that it was "subverted", or is fake astroturfing is absurd. Read this: http://technosociology.org/?p=1255
Third, you need to learn a lot more about election politics and demographics in Turkey.
Democracy is not elected dictatorship. But Erdogan has made it clear that this is his interpretation of it, many times.
P.S. There are so many videos (with context) / images of clear and unincited police brutality that I want to puke when I hear you deny them. I've been compiling a list. More on this later too.
You either closed your eyes for the last few days or don't know anybody in Turkey.
I have friends and family who protested (peacefully) on the streets of Istanbul, Izmir and Ankara in the last few days. Almost all of them had to endure tear gas, beatings and other cruel events.
I have also been told by the exact same people (who don't belong to any political party btw) that people who normally wouldn't stay in a room together (think soccer fans of opposing teams, religious and non-religious people, nationalists and communists) went onto the streets to protest against the police brutality, SIDE BY SIDE.
You are right, Erdogan and his party won the last three elections. But there are also rumours that they bought votes, so like you said - don't believe everything you read.
The problem is way bigger than a few political parties trying to pull strings (honestly your opinion sounds very pro-government and almost conspiracy theoretical): There are people RIGHT NOW in the streets getting BEAT UP by the police (the very same organization that should PROTECT those people).
Look around on twitter and facebook, read posts of REAL PEOPLE. The police brutatlity has taken a level which is inhumane and has to be stopped.
Edit: (sorry I'm getting a little angry here) Posts like yours are exactly the reason why people look at this and think "oh this is just another political party power move / somebody trying to exploit the situation. This is probably all fake anyway" - while people are getting beat up.
The campaign is there to provide insights what's going on in Turkey, it's not questioning the average income increase, China is one the greatest economical powers of the world, so what? It doesnt mean people are free and treated right.
This campaign is there for supporting the most basic human right: being heard.
As a side note, the protests were never not influenced by a political party at all. I personally know several AKP voters, who are on the street now.
I agree that people should be careful in judging happenings in countries they have limited knowledge of, however, I see that you have no links to back your points so people have to rely on what you're saying. All the things I have observed so far are in direct contradiction to your points. Specifically,
* "social media campaign backed by yet to be seen figures", I don't know what you are referring here, it could be the typical conspiracy theory fueled thinking (e.g. "Israel/US was behind the twin tower attacks"). What I see from my Facebook and Twitter feeds is that all my friends, both in Turkey and in US, have been busy for the past 4-5 days in backing the protests by sharing information, etc. Naturally, some misinformation was communicated but that doesn't prove the point that everything was done by "outside powers".
* BDP was not heavily involved in the protests; however, a BDP representative was the first government person to try to stop the dozers in the park.
* I wish CHP were more involved! As you no doubt know, Kilicdaroglu, CHP's president, is a clueless guy who is incapable of seizing the moment even now. He tried to have large gathering on Saturday but did not have much effect.
* Your point that DHKP and TKP are somehow involved and/or masterminded the protests is ludicrous. True, these groups have in the past organized protests in Turkey and may have been involved in the protests (I saw people holding DHKP flags among the crowds a few times). That doesn't change the fact that the protests were middle-class-based at their peak. How else to explain involvement of groups such as BJK Carsi (btw these guys are quite a phenomenon, if you want to know more check out Elif Batuman's piece in The New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/03/07/110307fa_fact_...).
It is a fact that PM Erdogan has kept Turkey's economy alive and well, no small feat considering the fact that Europe is having its worst recession since WWII. It is equally obvious that he has become very authoritarian in the past 1-2 years. I can give quite a number of links but just listening to his news brief with a Turkish Reuters reporter is enough to showcase his impatience, I think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abxc0b0J2UY
When you say minimum wage has increased 500%, those who don't know the inflation rate is ~10% will think people got 5 times richer. There is indeed more to this story than meets the eye; minimum wage is below the poverty limit.
When you say they subverted the initial protest, do you mean before or after the police clamped it? I'm just wondering because if they'd politicised (to some extent made more extreme too), that could explain a lot about the police action. Alternatively, maybe the police made a bad shout upsetting a peaceful protest and these parties capitalised on angry people?
Yes, there are other parties that exist in Turkey. The people protesting are from different backgrounds, educations, futbol teams and political parties, and have joined together to protest the brutality that was exhibited by the police, the media censorship and the built up frustration with the government's policies.
Yes, the AK party receives a substantial amount of the votes as they are the unified religious based party that appeals to the majority of the country.
> and people need to wonder why and how this has blown up so successfully on social media sites.
One might have had to wonder that, if it had not been for the extremely poor mainstream media coverage. That in itself has been a substantial driver for a lot of the social media attention outside of Turkey at least.
Thank you for the insight, its often hard if not impossible to be unbiased when it comes to these `uprisings` and civil conflicts. So hearing both sides is refreshing, do you have any sources for the information you provided?
Why the heck do these people want to advertise to Americans? This is a Turkish issue among Turks. What does Uncle Sam have to do with this? Inviting foreign involvement and commentary seems like an obviously horrible idea to me.
Reminds me of the "color revolutions" and the Iranian protests a while ago. You knew it was all BS when they kept trotting out so many slick people speaking flawless English.
Because they can't advertise in a mainstream Turkish newspaper. The whole blowup happened because the government has been increasingly turning into a dictatorship. Newspapers and TV stations are heavily censored.
1. Americans will read the news and think "Oh wow, I'm not going to Turkey anytime soon" then move on. (Much like when they read an article about violence in Mexico, etc.)
2. Americans will read the news and think "What a hell hole out there. I'm so happy America is the best. We have it so good here". This will further re-enforce their (incorrect) views about America.
I have to wonder, who stands to gain the most if these full-page ads actually run in American media?
I agree that a compaign to advertise to Americans (or any international public) is suspicious. They must reach for their own people, and this is the only right long term strategy. However, I'm afraid that most of Turks can be just too apathetic.
[+] [-] peace4democracy|13 years ago|reply
Be careful. some supporters of the government, are even forming Nazi SS style mobs to attack demonstrating families. People like @cup, are cleverly embedded opinion makers, who are there to hide the authoritarian, regime. Erdogan yesterday called, Twitter a curse and social media an enemy. So be careful about commenters here.
[+] [-] mcintyre1994|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] qubitsam|13 years ago|reply
Furthermore, you attack a fellow HNer (@cup) and brand him a "Nazi" for sharing sensible argument, instead of addressing the points he makes.
The recent discussions around Turkey on HN, and the fact that comments like yours are getting upvoted, speaks heaps of the direction this site is heading towards.
[+] [-] csomar|13 years ago|reply
1. Vulnerability: A loss of the leader will cause wide internal and external vulnerability. Any party will try to somehow colonize the vulnerable country which doesn't have a clear leader or a clear path. Certainly, for their economic, political and geographic benefits.
2. Economic deterioration: It's even worse in Turkey. Loss of Touristic money flow will cause the economy to deteriorate and joblessness to increase, increasing instability and feeding that loop.
3. Less Freedom and democracy: Indeed, a revolution on the streets doesn't bring democracy or free speech. If anything, it encourages extremists to kill/censor/stop the other party.
Seeing how things developed in Tunisia in the last 3 years, I'll advise against revolutions at any time. And I'm talking about peaceful ones.
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cup|13 years ago|reply
So why are there protests?
Well theyre not about a tree unsurprisingly. There are 3 political factions who have subverted the initial protest, the BDP, CHP and TKP parties which are socialist, communist, secular or a combination of them (TKP being the most extreme).
Surprisingly, these three parties were recently holding protest against Erdogans decision to allow refugees from Syria to enter Turkey. Yes, the three parties who are apparantly looking after the wellbeing of trees in a park don't want refugees of war entering Turkey (though no one mentiosn the fact that these three parties also support Assad because the Baath party is/was communist and secular too).
Theres also the DHKP which is an extremist communist (terrorist?) party which hates the fact that the leader of Turkey is a practising Muslim and that Islam is seeing a revival in Turkey.
So try to read between the lines and see that theres more to the story than trees. Redditors and HN folks seem to be falling hook line and sinker for a fantastic marketing astro turfing campaign.
Just a few more pointers. During erdogans reign he improved the minimum wage by 500%, allowed farmers to access capital at a 5% interest rate as opposed to the initial 54% and paid off the last installment towards the IMF freeing them of all their debts. For the first time in modern era, Turkey now owes no money to the IMF and is the 15th largets economy in the world.
Turkey does have problems, but theres more to this story that meets the eye and people need to wonder why and how this has blown up so successfully on social media sites.
[+] [-] makmanalp|13 years ago|reply
It's obvious that you know more than the average person on this subject, but you're falling into the trap of thinking that just because you know some things, you have a good (or even the best) picture of what is happening.
First of all, the main significant thing about these protests is that it was the FIRST large scale protest to not be organized by any political group(s) and instead is grassroots. People just started messaging each other and walking outside of their houses to support others. A day or two later, parties finally started organizing but the protest is nonpartisan. I have never otherwise seen a TKP (left-communist party) and MHP (ultra-nationalist right) flags flying together EVER! There are also people from Laz, soccer teams, Kurds, workers unions, LGBT groups. I am getting daily updates from almost all of my friends who are taking part in the protests. The idea that it was "subverted", or is fake astroturfing is absurd. Read this: http://technosociology.org/?p=1255
Second, yes, Erdogan's leadership resulted in economic reform (the costs of this is another discussion altogether, but no one can deny the gains). But this has nothing to do with his authoritarian ruling style. Under his tenure, Turkey has had the great (!) achievements of dropping to 54th in the corruption index (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/9967221.asp) and "noticable problems" the press freedom index with 33 journalists currently jailed (http://en.rsf.org/report-turkey,141.html). Or political prisoners (http://www.fidh.org/International-delegation-finds).
Third, you need to learn a lot more about election politics and demographics in Turkey.
Democracy is not elected dictatorship. But Erdogan has made it clear that this is his interpretation of it, many times.
P.S. There are so many videos (with context) / images of clear and unincited police brutality that I want to puke when I hear you deny them. I've been compiling a list. More on this later too.
http://i.imgur.com/GdstgFu.jpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHFe7vK1hyw https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151648526182702 http://i.imgur.com/ovsvTkg.jpg https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=139362532926023 http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-981250 https://twitter.com/kurttberna/status/340734448146472960/pho... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDnrcsrhxGg http://i.imgur.com/tP6EIXI.jpg http://i.imgur.com/n1VWYdI.jpg https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=207394002740909&set... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=248465715278711&s... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=654306227917990&set=...
[+] [-] freshfey|13 years ago|reply
I have friends and family who protested (peacefully) on the streets of Istanbul, Izmir and Ankara in the last few days. Almost all of them had to endure tear gas, beatings and other cruel events.
I have also been told by the exact same people (who don't belong to any political party btw) that people who normally wouldn't stay in a room together (think soccer fans of opposing teams, religious and non-religious people, nationalists and communists) went onto the streets to protest against the police brutality, SIDE BY SIDE.
You are right, Erdogan and his party won the last three elections. But there are also rumours that they bought votes, so like you said - don't believe everything you read.
The problem is way bigger than a few political parties trying to pull strings (honestly your opinion sounds very pro-government and almost conspiracy theoretical): There are people RIGHT NOW in the streets getting BEAT UP by the police (the very same organization that should PROTECT those people).
Look around on twitter and facebook, read posts of REAL PEOPLE. The police brutatlity has taken a level which is inhumane and has to be stopped.
Edit: (sorry I'm getting a little angry here) Posts like yours are exactly the reason why people look at this and think "oh this is just another political party power move / somebody trying to exploit the situation. This is probably all fake anyway" - while people are getting beat up.
[+] [-] theverse|13 years ago|reply
This campaign is there for supporting the most basic human right: being heard.
As a side note, the protests were never not influenced by a political party at all. I personally know several AKP voters, who are on the street now.
[+] [-] Jun8|13 years ago|reply
* "social media campaign backed by yet to be seen figures", I don't know what you are referring here, it could be the typical conspiracy theory fueled thinking (e.g. "Israel/US was behind the twin tower attacks"). What I see from my Facebook and Twitter feeds is that all my friends, both in Turkey and in US, have been busy for the past 4-5 days in backing the protests by sharing information, etc. Naturally, some misinformation was communicated but that doesn't prove the point that everything was done by "outside powers".
* BDP was not heavily involved in the protests; however, a BDP representative was the first government person to try to stop the dozers in the park.
* I wish CHP were more involved! As you no doubt know, Kilicdaroglu, CHP's president, is a clueless guy who is incapable of seizing the moment even now. He tried to have large gathering on Saturday but did not have much effect.
* Your point that DHKP and TKP are somehow involved and/or masterminded the protests is ludicrous. True, these groups have in the past organized protests in Turkey and may have been involved in the protests (I saw people holding DHKP flags among the crowds a few times). That doesn't change the fact that the protests were middle-class-based at their peak. How else to explain involvement of groups such as BJK Carsi (btw these guys are quite a phenomenon, if you want to know more check out Elif Batuman's piece in The New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/03/07/110307fa_fact_...).
It is a fact that PM Erdogan has kept Turkey's economy alive and well, no small feat considering the fact that Europe is having its worst recession since WWII. It is equally obvious that he has become very authoritarian in the past 1-2 years. I can give quite a number of links but just listening to his news brief with a Turkish Reuters reporter is enough to showcase his impatience, I think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abxc0b0J2UY
[+] [-] muhuk|13 years ago|reply
https://www.google.com.sg/search?q=turkey+minimum+wage
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoksulluk_s%C4%B1n%C4%B1r%C4%B1 (poverty level 2013: 3280TL for a family of 4)
[+] [-] mcintyre1994|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ericelias|13 years ago|reply
Yes, the AK party receives a substantial amount of the votes as they are the unified religious based party that appeals to the majority of the country.
(http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com)
[+] [-] vidarh|13 years ago|reply
One might have had to wonder that, if it had not been for the extremely poor mainstream media coverage. That in itself has been a substantial driver for a lot of the social media attention outside of Turkey at least.
[+] [-] rrrrtttt|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mihok|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lifeguard|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] lmartel|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] akx|13 years ago|reply
But now that you mention it, not sure if that extends to ending a campaign early.
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] 13b9f227ecf0|13 years ago|reply
Reminds me of the "color revolutions" and the Iranian protests a while ago. You knew it was all BS when they kept trotting out so many slick people speaking flawless English.
[+] [-] aytekin|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cema|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grecy|13 years ago|reply
1. Americans will read the news and think "Oh wow, I'm not going to Turkey anytime soon" then move on. (Much like when they read an article about violence in Mexico, etc.)
2. Americans will read the news and think "What a hell hole out there. I'm so happy America is the best. We have it so good here". This will further re-enforce their (incorrect) views about America.
I have to wonder, who stands to gain the most if these full-page ads actually run in American media?
[+] [-] a-nikolaev|13 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] LatvjuAvs|13 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] liquidise|13 years ago|reply
BBC (1st article): http://www.bbc.co.uk/
NYT (2nd article): http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html
CNN (1st article): http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/
AlJ (2nd article): http://www.aljazeera.com/
MSNBC (1st article): http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3032507/ns/world_news/
[+] [-] mtgx|13 years ago|reply
Do you think most people in Turkey are watching BBC? They watch local media.