I honestly don't see how american-run social media companies can disentangle themselves from the NSA now. It remains to be seen if the public in most countries will even take notice, but this kind of response will not be the last we see from foreign government agencies. If Facebook or Gmail do fall from public grace, the only certain thing is that their successor won't be run by an american company. International trust in american companies may be fundamentally tainted now.
> If Facebook or Gmail do fall from public grace, the only certain thing is that their successor won't be run by an american company.
Who's to say we'll ever see a major international company like that again? I foresee a future where DNS root server control is yanked away from the USG and the internet is partitioned.
The pendulum has peaked at globalization and now it's swinging towards isolationism. Whether we like it or not borders have been drawn along the previously wild-west-like internet, and it may take on the form of virtual Berlin Walls.
Hopefully someday we can enjoy the same euphoria that followed Germany's reunification but on a global scale, and that day may take a century to get here.
If I'm a Russian citizen outside the reach of the US government, then why do I care if the ones spying on me are the NSA or Facebook and Google themselves? The latest revelations change nothing for me.
Fact is, Russians don't use Facebook and Gmail because they have more popular local alternatives. This decision is ultimately more about trade protectionism than anything else, much like the US witch-hunt on ZTE and Huawei.
Well, this is a typical link bait, peppered with the eerie "cold war" overtones. Let me clear up a few things.
Firstly, the proposal is covering specifically military and state employees. No one is going to shut down Gmail or Facebook countrywide. This is ridiculous.
Secondly, it's not a ban, but a request to develop a set of instructions on handling in-house data for the employees.
Thirdly, the proposal calls for encryption of all sensitive data sent over the internet.
The article says "immediately limit civil servants’ access to the popular US internet services and social networks" - which I have to admit actually makes sense.
If the NSA can get details of the personal lives of individuals then it could open them up for blackmail and therefore to be a security risk.
Years ago, when Russia was vehemently against US expanding its anti-rocket shields, I was against Russia, and supported US, because "US are the good guys, right?". Over the past few years I've started to understand Russia's position. Nobody should want US to become too powerful, because clearly you can't depend on Americans to keep their own government in check, no matter how good the US Constitution is.
So I kind've understand this move from Russia, too, even though it will probably end badly for Russia, to the point where they become more like China, but I feel that US deserves this from every country in the world, until they roll back all the spying, and end these programs and laws (Patriot Act, FISA).
I imagine that if there are hundreds of corporations lobbying the US government to stop because they are losing business overseas, they will eventually do it, because they know that the end of the day, and despite all their public statements, the spying is not that useful for catching terrorists, and specific investigations and wiretapping should still be possible under reasonable laws anyway.
A bit of history in relation to the proposed anti-ballistic defense system in Europe.
In 2002, the US unilaterally withdrew from the ABM treaty with Russia. The treaty had been active since the 70s and sought to decrease the amount of those very systems installed. In the same year, no longer bound by the treaty, the US started to look into expansion of its defense arsenal in Europe, which eventually led them to Poland.
It is no surprise then that Russia saw it as an unfriendly gesture at best. Any independent country would, when all of a sudden someone dumps the anti-ballistic treaty and then decides to build a defensive shield along your borders.
The EU has traditionally been used as a playground to advance the US agenda. The proposed defense system is no exception. Gladly, it did not come to fruition. Otherwise, we'd seen a very different Europe now.
Given our attachment to history, Russia is still often seen as this "cold war" aggressor out to get you. But if the past decade is of any lesson, I think we have a new candidate on this role.
"even though it will probably end badly for Russia, to the point where they become more like China"
Not sure what you mean by this.
As a European I'm pretty uncomfortable with the idea of a foreign government being able to snoop on my internet communications and I'm hoping European leaders take a stand on this. I don't see that leading any where bad though.
> hundreds of corporations lobbying the US government to stop
And then if the government say that they stopped, how can you ever be sure they did?
Unless we use free (as in freedom) software, open encrypted communication protocols, and decentralized network services, we are trusting too much of our computing and communication to third parties, which are subject to political powers, that always do whatever they can to protect themselves. The government should not be trusted, it must be controlled. Corporations should not be trusted either.
If we are talking about being charged with treason and possibly executed, it's interesting to me that you are OK with brutal state oppression in Russia just because it hurts the US. It gives some insight into your priorities: hurting the US is more important to you than whether people are subject to gross injustice by an authoritarian state.
> "clearly you can't depend on Americans to keep their own government in check, no matter how good the US Constitution is."
The Government has been taking away our rights for years, the general public seems to expect the government to solve all of their problems and give them free paychecks.
Of course, I really would be surprised to find out the America is the only country spying on their own citizens.
This has been going on for years and everyone knew it.. now with the leak hopefully we can reign in our own government and abolish the practice officially.
This move is not from Russia (as country/people) but it is from Russian government. They are constantly doing this as it is the only way to make the look better than they actually are.
When does establishing a good defense (for an ally no less) become an act of aggression? Certainly it's not a purely passive act, but it's also a far cry from aggression seen by both Russia and the US in the past.
>because clearly you can't depend on Any Country to keep their own government in check, no matter how good Their Laws Are.
FTFY. The fact is, laws/constitutions/whatever are utterly meaningless. Without enforcement, that is. And it's not up to us to enforce it, it's up to government officials. They can and do simply ignore laws whenever they wish. Sometimes a check/balance kicks in and makes them pay some kind of penalty, sometimes nothing happens.
Russia isn't worried about America becoming too powerful. Russia's stance is that your country should worry about itself, and leave other countries alone. Putin has said many snarky remarks in this respect.
Terrorists who are competent harden their communications to avoid US sigint, where the superiority of the US agencies is paramount and well-known.
The US is known to have particularly weak human intelligence networks (few spies actually capable of infiltrating foreign terrorist groups). Al Qaeda and the rest know that it's incredibly risky to use electronic communications, so the people that you'd want to monitor already know they're being targeted.
Naturally, the US government's response to this has been to bet more heavily on signals intelligence.
Very soon, Russia, Saudi, India and anyother countries can demand Google, Facebook, twitter,'s servers be located inside their borders and allow their own intelligent agents to access, inspect it.
Since China block google, Facebook, twitter already, they can also make the demand for Apple imsg, icloud, Microsoft and Skype servers be inside China , else they are blocked. Apple, M$ will have to agree or risk loosing that market.
Which is technically illegal in most countries, storing government information on foreign systems.
Up until now, it may have been tolerated as long as it didn't concern obviously sensitive information, but you can expect a total ban in most countries on the planet, not just paranoid Russia.
Since I don't know enough about Russia, I can't dismiss this report as sensationalist, but something tells me it is.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge can tell us if Russian law requires intent to prove "high treason"? And how influential is this "Lower House deputy" anyway?
This is just another episode in anti-american hysteria reality show called Russian internal politics.
>if Russian law requires
there is no such thing as "Russian law" in the sense "law" is understood in the Western world. There is though a will of whoever has the power - it is real Russian law and it doesn't require any prove for a guilty verdict.
>And how influential is this "Lower House deputy" anyway?
Just a government mouthpiece. The elections are based on party lists. So beyond 10th position in the leading party and 2-3rd position in other parties, these people are unknown nobodies. Some just buy the position in the list to
get immunity from various criminal prosecutions the face.
Obviously providing such data to the NSA is a crime. It's helping a foreign power, and it is taking away jobs from Russians at various Russian intelligence programs who now have less information about Russian citizens to look at.....
Another interesting turn of events. It seems Russia is considering asylum for Snowden:
The head of the foreign affairs committee in Russia's State Duma, or lower house of parliament, predicted "hysteria in the United States," if Russia were to agree to shelter Mr. Snowden, whom he likened to controversial WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange.
“Having promised Snowden refuge, Moscow is taking up the defense of those persecuted for political reasons. There will be hysteria in the United States,” Alexei Pushkov wrote on Twitter. “In listening to phone calls and tacking Internet activity, U.S. intelligence agencies have violated the laws of their own country. In this sense, Snowden—like Assange—is a human-rights activist.”
Week ago, criminal case against vkontakte.ru's founder Pavel Durov was closed stating that he didn't intent to hit road police officer by a car after traffic jam halted his fleeing.
He did or he didn't, the rumor now is that FSB doesn't need classified intelligence committee hearings to access vkontakte.ru data now.
Of course they do. The thing is that Snowden's status makes him a huge asset for every foreign power out there. Who knows where he will go. The US government would be smart to give him immunity to prosecution for this act (and merely take away his security clearance) just to keep that from happening.
We saw this already with Skype.
FSB: we are not able to eavesdrop Skype calls and Skype is controlled by US, so it must be banned.
And some time later: we reached an agreement with Microsoft, Skype is OK.
Putin gets divorced and all of a sudden there are Russian warships moving into the Mediterranean and now Russian citizens might be punished for using Facebook or Gmail.
[+] [-] beloch|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ihsw|12 years ago|reply
Who's to say we'll ever see a major international company like that again? I foresee a future where DNS root server control is yanked away from the USG and the internet is partitioned.
The pendulum has peaked at globalization and now it's swinging towards isolationism. Whether we like it or not borders have been drawn along the previously wild-west-like internet, and it may take on the form of virtual Berlin Walls.
Hopefully someday we can enjoy the same euphoria that followed Germany's reunification but on a global scale, and that day may take a century to get here.
[+] [-] rrrrtttt|12 years ago|reply
Fact is, Russians don't use Facebook and Gmail because they have more popular local alternatives. This decision is ultimately more about trade protectionism than anything else, much like the US witch-hunt on ZTE and Huawei.
[+] [-] znowi|12 years ago|reply
Firstly, the proposal is covering specifically military and state employees. No one is going to shut down Gmail or Facebook countrywide. This is ridiculous.
Secondly, it's not a ban, but a request to develop a set of instructions on handling in-house data for the employees.
Thirdly, the proposal calls for encryption of all sensitive data sent over the internet.
A little less sensational, is it? :)
[+] [-] arethuza|12 years ago|reply
If the NSA can get details of the personal lives of individuals then it could open them up for blackmail and therefore to be a security risk.
[+] [-] mtgx|12 years ago|reply
So I kind've understand this move from Russia, too, even though it will probably end badly for Russia, to the point where they become more like China, but I feel that US deserves this from every country in the world, until they roll back all the spying, and end these programs and laws (Patriot Act, FISA).
I imagine that if there are hundreds of corporations lobbying the US government to stop because they are losing business overseas, they will eventually do it, because they know that the end of the day, and despite all their public statements, the spying is not that useful for catching terrorists, and specific investigations and wiretapping should still be possible under reasonable laws anyway.
[+] [-] znowi|12 years ago|reply
In 2002, the US unilaterally withdrew from the ABM treaty with Russia. The treaty had been active since the 70s and sought to decrease the amount of those very systems installed. In the same year, no longer bound by the treaty, the US started to look into expansion of its defense arsenal in Europe, which eventually led them to Poland.
It is no surprise then that Russia saw it as an unfriendly gesture at best. Any independent country would, when all of a sudden someone dumps the anti-ballistic treaty and then decides to build a defensive shield along your borders.
The EU has traditionally been used as a playground to advance the US agenda. The proposed defense system is no exception. Gladly, it did not come to fruition. Otherwise, we'd seen a very different Europe now.
Given our attachment to history, Russia is still often seen as this "cold war" aggressor out to get you. But if the past decade is of any lesson, I think we have a new candidate on this role.
[+] [-] colin_jack|12 years ago|reply
Not sure what you mean by this.
As a European I'm pretty uncomfortable with the idea of a foreign government being able to snoop on my internet communications and I'm hoping European leaders take a stand on this. I don't see that leading any where bad though.
[+] [-] Fice|12 years ago|reply
And then if the government say that they stopped, how can you ever be sure they did?
Unless we use free (as in freedom) software, open encrypted communication protocols, and decentralized network services, we are trusting too much of our computing and communication to third parties, which are subject to political powers, that always do whatever they can to protect themselves. The government should not be trusted, it must be controlled. Corporations should not be trusted either.
[+] [-] pekk|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asperous|12 years ago|reply
The Government has been taking away our rights for years, the general public seems to expect the government to solve all of their problems and give them free paychecks.
Of course, I really would be surprised to find out the America is the only country spying on their own citizens.
This has been going on for years and everyone knew it.. now with the leak hopefully we can reign in our own government and abolish the practice officially.
[+] [-] daliusd|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] josefresco|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flyinRyan|12 years ago|reply
FTFY. The fact is, laws/constitutions/whatever are utterly meaningless. Without enforcement, that is. And it's not up to us to enforce it, it's up to government officials. They can and do simply ignore laws whenever they wish. Sometimes a check/balance kicks in and makes them pay some kind of penalty, sometimes nothing happens.
[+] [-] borlak|12 years ago|reply
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] stackedmidgets|12 years ago|reply
The US is known to have particularly weak human intelligence networks (few spies actually capable of infiltrating foreign terrorist groups). Al Qaeda and the rest know that it's incredibly risky to use electronic communications, so the people that you'd want to monitor already know they're being targeted.
Naturally, the US government's response to this has been to bet more heavily on signals intelligence.
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tonyplee|12 years ago|reply
Since China block google, Facebook, twitter already, they can also make the demand for Apple imsg, icloud, Microsoft and Skype servers be inside China , else they are blocked. Apple, M$ will have to agree or risk loosing that market.
[+] [-] aptwebapps|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 1morepassword|12 years ago|reply
Up until now, it may have been tolerated as long as it didn't concern obviously sensitive information, but you can expect a total ban in most countries on the planet, not just paranoid Russia.
[+] [-] ern|12 years ago|reply
Perhaps someone with more knowledge can tell us if Russian law requires intent to prove "high treason"? And how influential is this "Lower House deputy" anyway?
[+] [-] VladRussian2|12 years ago|reply
>if Russian law requires
there is no such thing as "Russian law" in the sense "law" is understood in the Western world. There is though a will of whoever has the power - it is real Russian law and it doesn't require any prove for a guilty verdict.
>And how influential is this "Lower House deputy" anyway?
Just a government mouthpiece. The elections are based on party lists. So beyond 10th position in the leading party and 2-3rd position in other parties, these people are unknown nobodies. Some just buy the position in the list to get immunity from various criminal prosecutions the face.
[+] [-] einhverfr|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mtgx|12 years ago|reply
The head of the foreign affairs committee in Russia's State Duma, or lower house of parliament, predicted "hysteria in the United States," if Russia were to agree to shelter Mr. Snowden, whom he likened to controversial WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange.
“Having promised Snowden refuge, Moscow is taking up the defense of those persecuted for political reasons. There will be hysteria in the United States,” Alexei Pushkov wrote on Twitter. “In listening to phone calls and tacking Internet activity, U.S. intelligence agencies have violated the laws of their own country. In this sense, Snowden—like Assange—is a human-rights activist.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732463430457853...
Note: You can search the URL in Google to get the full story)
[+] [-] adobriyan|12 years ago|reply
He did or he didn't, the rumor now is that FSB doesn't need classified intelligence committee hearings to access vkontakte.ru data now.
[+] [-] einhverfr|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ihmahr|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bad_user|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fuxy|12 years ago|reply
It would take a super human effort though. Unlikely it would happen but here's hoping.
That would definitely send a message to the corporate system of America.
Mess with our privacy and you loose your audience.
[+] [-] ethanazir|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] silveira|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fice|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ntrails|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gus_massa|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bhdz|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] draven|12 years ago|reply