Can anyone recommend a good source for background information about bees? 25,000 sounds like a huge number, but some quick googling (no idea how reliable the sources are) seems to indicate that's about the number of bees in a hive.
I'd like to have a better idea of whether this story is closer to, "Exterminators spray beehive, all the bees die" or "Colony collapse disorder threatens the existence of all life on earth"
25,000 is a huge number because they were bumble bees, which exist in hives of hundreds of individuals (unlike honey bees, which can have tens of thousands).
The story in a sentence is "Exterminators drench tree in mixed insecticide, kill thousands of insects from the tree and surrounding area". It has little to do with colony collapse disorder.
Numbers of bees in a hive grows and shrinks depending on the season and climate. Typical numbers might be 15-20K bees in winter, 60-80K bees in summer.
Worker-Bee lifespan = ~2 months. All eggs laid by one queen!
It should be no surprise that bees (as pollinators) and chemical companies are multimillion dollar/billion dollar industries within the larger agricultural industry.
It should also be no surprise the chemical companies are paying millions of dollars a year to special interest groups, lobbyists, PR, and "independent" research studies - all of which suggest Colony Collapse Disorder is not definitively linked with "insecticides", as you call them.
CCD is analogous to almost every other scientific theory that runs counter to powerful interests and money, backed by observation, research studies, empirical data, and plain common sense - think evolution or global warming - science and common sense goes out the window in favor of the status quo.
Insects are not all the same, some are hundreds of millions of years evolutionarily distant from one another. This leads to quite specialised biology in different insect groups, and many insecticides have highly specific action that targets only a subset of insect species by interfering with molecular pathways specific to them. So actually, we really don't want to jump to conclusions. Just because something is an insecticide, doesn't mean it kills or harms all insects.
A further relevant fact is that bee decline is related to many factors, possibly including pesticide use, but almost certainly including the modern practise of intensive bee farming and transport for pollination services, which leads to rapid spread of diseases.
Is there a movement in the US yet to ban neocotinoids? I would like to donate if so. I saw a few bees dying on the ground last year, but this year it seems much worse. I've probably seen five bees dying on the ground in the last week, and I don't even spend that much time outside! (This is in the East Bay near San Francisco by the way.)
Especially since the main reason for spraying are the aphids. Which they could keep low if there were more ladybirds. But alas! The ladybirds are being killed too.
Please HN, let's be sensible about the bees. This is maybe the tenth story about bees I've seen hit the front page in the last couple of months. People seem to be absorbing the alarmist and unfounded opinion that we know what's causing CCD.
Truth is, we simply don't know what's causing it. There are many possibilities, and there are hundreds of research groups working on it. It has been shown that some pesticides do affect bees. But it has also been shown that various diseases as well as beekeeping practices have large effects.
CCD is complex, and a sky news story about a single incident of a bunch of bees dying is no reason to start jumping to conclusions. It's interesting, sure, but don't assume it tells us anything about CCD.
>It has been shown that some pesticides do affect bees. But it has also been shown that various diseases as well as beekeeping practices have large effects.
There is no direct link demonstrated between neonicotinoids and the honey bee syndrome known as Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD). However, as the most likely candidate, that is why a story like this is important, because it is a case study likely to link the two. Is this story determinative? Absolutely not, otherwise that would be the headline, "Neonicotinoids Proved to be the Smoking Gun in CCD."
However, as to the diseases you refer to, recent research suggests that neonicotinoids may make honey bees more susceptible to parasites and pathogens, including the intestinal parasite Nosema, which has been implicated as one causative factor in CCD. (http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Are-Neonico...)
As to the keepers theory, sure transport and handling may be blamed, but bee keepers have been around since at least the time of the building of the pyramids - in fact many tombs were uncovered with 2,000+ year old honey that was eaten by the discoverers (not a bad shelf life). Nevertheless, significantly well traveled bees tend to die at greater rates, of course this can not account for CCD in wild colonies.
I imagine neonicotinoids will prove to be the smoking gun, but more along the lines of nicotine and "third hand smoke" (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-hand_smoke). To complicate matters even further, the neonicotinoids are likely to not directly cause death, but to make bees more susceptible to diseases or parasites (as referenced in the study above), making the diseases and parasites more palatable candidates for the cause rather than an effect of the cause.
That's really not true. Plenty of food self pollinates. However, I wouldn't really want to go on living without all the wonderful foods that bees provide us with. Think matrix-meals and you're feeling it.
If you are in the business, perhaps you can provide some perspective on this. According to news reports for the last few months, there has been an epidemic of bees dying off. Can't recall for sure, but figures of 40%-75% loss have been floating around.
If true, this seems very significant. If we leave out the obvious emotional negatives, the economic fall out could be monstrous in the form of much higher prices and severe supply constraint on everything from fruit/pollinator-dependent food, to honey and products made from honey/beeswax. Not to mention farms going out of business due to poor harvest.
Because for some pathetic reason, we're apparently still on the cusp of accepting that we are probably almost sure why the bees are dying, but a huge swath of us are turning a blind eye out of scientific ignorance or out of bribery. And our job as literate, scientific folk is to get outraged about this and use our cute metaphorical clout to make these other people, the majority, understand that the world is GOING TO SUCK someday if we kill the bees off enough to stop pollinating all the crazy delicious things we like to eat. Even if we have our heads up our asses over the supposed cause of this, we as an entire planet should still be completely paying attention, livid, and figuring out what the actual cause is. Because odds are good it's something humans did. If you're not upset about the bees dying, you are not thinking it through enough.
[+] [-] jmharvey|12 years ago|reply
I'd like to have a better idea of whether this story is closer to, "Exterminators spray beehive, all the bees die" or "Colony collapse disorder threatens the existence of all life on earth"
[+] [-] Blahah|12 years ago|reply
The story in a sentence is "Exterminators drench tree in mixed insecticide, kill thousands of insects from the tree and surrounding area". It has little to do with colony collapse disorder.
[+] [-] will_brown|12 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder
[+] [-] andyl|12 years ago|reply
Worker-Bee lifespan = ~2 months. All eggs laid by one queen!
[+] [-] sageikosa|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jamieb|12 years ago|reply
2002: no dead bees.
2003: no dead bees.
...
2012: no dead bees.
2013:6/17 Sprayed Lindren trees with insecticides toxic to bees
2013:6/20 25,000 dead fucking bees
Conclusion: "It could be because Linden Trees are toxic to bees."
[+] [-] socillion|12 years ago|reply
http://www.opb.org/news/blog/ecotrope/state-confirms-pestici...
This was also concluded a few days ago: http://www.opb.org/news/blog/ecotrope/xerces-society-wilsonv...
[+] [-] jmharvey|12 years ago|reply
http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/Pages/news/130621bees.aspx
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Blahah|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] genwin|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] will_brown|12 years ago|reply
It should also be no surprise the chemical companies are paying millions of dollars a year to special interest groups, lobbyists, PR, and "independent" research studies - all of which suggest Colony Collapse Disorder is not definitively linked with "insecticides", as you call them.
CCD is analogous to almost every other scientific theory that runs counter to powerful interests and money, backed by observation, research studies, empirical data, and plain common sense - think evolution or global warming - science and common sense goes out the window in favor of the status quo.
[+] [-] Blahah|12 years ago|reply
A further relevant fact is that bee decline is related to many factors, possibly including pesticide use, but almost certainly including the modern practise of intensive bee farming and transport for pollination services, which leads to rapid spread of diseases.
[+] [-] BadCookie|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] btbuildem|12 years ago|reply
Gee whiz, how about NOT SPRAYING POISON ON THE TREES in the first place?!
[+] [-] genwin|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jsilence|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joshdance|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Blahah|12 years ago|reply
Truth is, we simply don't know what's causing it. There are many possibilities, and there are hundreds of research groups working on it. It has been shown that some pesticides do affect bees. But it has also been shown that various diseases as well as beekeeping practices have large effects.
CCD is complex, and a sky news story about a single incident of a bunch of bees dying is no reason to start jumping to conclusions. It's interesting, sure, but don't assume it tells us anything about CCD.
[+] [-] will_brown|12 years ago|reply
There is no direct link demonstrated between neonicotinoids and the honey bee syndrome known as Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD). However, as the most likely candidate, that is why a story like this is important, because it is a case study likely to link the two. Is this story determinative? Absolutely not, otherwise that would be the headline, "Neonicotinoids Proved to be the Smoking Gun in CCD."
However, as to the diseases you refer to, recent research suggests that neonicotinoids may make honey bees more susceptible to parasites and pathogens, including the intestinal parasite Nosema, which has been implicated as one causative factor in CCD. (http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Are-Neonico...)
As to the keepers theory, sure transport and handling may be blamed, but bee keepers have been around since at least the time of the building of the pyramids - in fact many tombs were uncovered with 2,000+ year old honey that was eaten by the discoverers (not a bad shelf life). Nevertheless, significantly well traveled bees tend to die at greater rates, of course this can not account for CCD in wild colonies.
I imagine neonicotinoids will prove to be the smoking gun, but more along the lines of nicotine and "third hand smoke" (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-hand_smoke). To complicate matters even further, the neonicotinoids are likely to not directly cause death, but to make bees more susceptible to diseases or parasites (as referenced in the study above), making the diseases and parasites more palatable candidates for the cause rather than an effect of the cause.
[+] [-] quotha|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] digitalsushi|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Blahah|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dbg31415|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DanBC|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andyl|12 years ago|reply
One of my hives was destroyed last year.
[+] [-] sologoub|12 years ago|reply
If true, this seems very significant. If we leave out the obvious emotional negatives, the economic fall out could be monstrous in the form of much higher prices and severe supply constraint on everything from fruit/pollinator-dependent food, to honey and products made from honey/beeswax. Not to mention farms going out of business due to poor harvest.
[+] [-] knappe|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] digitalsushi|12 years ago|reply