What people don't realise is that hardly anyone needs to use this sort of infrastructure regularly. We fixate on the range of a gasoline tank, thinking that an electric car must match that range if it's to be useful. In truth, long range driving is a very niche use case.
How many times in the last year did you start a trip with a full tank and need to refuel before you reached your destination? The mode answer to that question is zero. According to the Department of Energy, the average vehicle trip is just 10.1 miles. 98% of car journeys are less than 50 miles.
Battery swap technology is irrelevant and always will be. It's a great marketing move by Tesla, because it undermines one of the key arguments against electric cars, but it has little or no practical importance. The fast-charge infrastructure is what matters, because it's cheap enough to realistically become ubiquitous.
We're just very poor at translating our experience of car ownership to electric technology. There's a long thread of comments about peak demand, in which several people clearly haven't internalised the idea that you can charge your electric car at home, so you only need to use a fast-charge or battery swap facility if you've just driven 300 miles in the same day.
> How many times in the last year did you start a trip with a full tank and need to refuel before you reached your destination?
Well, there was that time in the last year that I drove from New York to Jackson, Wyoming and back (~2000 miles each way). If I did that in a Tesla I'd want to battery-swap once or twice a day. Um, it looks like that might be possible sometime in the next year or two. Hurray!
(right now there aren't even any supercharger stations along that route, much less battery-swapping ones. There's an interactive map of stations here: http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger )
Though there's another question about that: How do you charge overnight at a hotel? Do you stay at motels and run an extension cord out the window? Is there a special database somewhere of hotels with convenient charging stations?
Even ignoring the range differences, this is misleading marketing. What happens when 500 cars show up at an urban Tesla battery swapper within 30 mins of each other on a Saturday morning?
Anyone who's been to a Costco gas station knows that the petrol refill process is sustainable for hundreds of cars, while the battery swap is "draining a cache" of however many battery packs the station has pre-charged, which my guess is, way less than 100.
They are gonna have a peak demand problem on holiday weekends, etc.
Have you thought about this at all? Why would 500 urban Tesla drivers ever show up at a charger on Saturday morning? They don't need to join the massive Costco queue. Their cars "refueled" the night before, for pennies.
Assuming the batteries are not just discarded when swapped, you'd end up charging them, right? If a stall can change 1 battery every 1.5 minutes, then it needs something like 60 batteries available, total.
Take one out, start it charging on a super charger. 60 minutes later it's ready to be used.
Have you actually thought about your comment? Why would a bunch of teslas in an urban environment need a battery swap? Why wouldn't everyone just keep their car plugged in at home? Urban driving rarely exceeds distances of even 30 miles in a single trip, unless you are a taxi or courier.
Are you saying that 500(or however many) teslas would all be rolling into the same charge station from 200+ miles away within the same 30 minute(or whatever) window?
And what happens in the rare, almost zero-probability chance that there are no batteries there for you to take in the 90 seconds? You wait 30 minutes for your car to be charged.
Starting by congratulating Tesla in their system, which should win some converts, but there's something bothering me with it.
An automobile network that's also owning their "refueling" network concerns me with the usual lock in concerns. What'd append when other brands want to offer the same service? A multitude of recharge posts all accross the land space each under their car brand flag? Figuring that there's only tesla and ford on this city, instead of the Nissan charging station that I need?
This particular solution seems very specific to Tesla (or even only model S), is there any standard or independent initiative for battery-exchange stations?
Interestingly, the idea of a car company owning the charging station network was presented by Cringely on his column years ago. [1]
Just listened to the podcast the other day and was struck by how similar Tesla's model is to what he presented. The entire segment is around the question of "how would Steve Jobs run a car company".
Most Audi A4s in the UK are probably the 2 litre inline 4 diesel. See the specs page here: http://www.audi.co.uk/new-cars/a4/a4-saloon/specifications.h.... Note that figures are in miles per Imperial gallon. The EU tests can produce unrealistic results, but the combined figure is usually actually attainable in practice under realistic conditions.
58.9 miles per imperial gallon in miles per 16.1 US gallons = 789.6 miles.
Diesel fuel is denser, but it comes out of the pump just as quickly. Add perhaps 20 seconds for donning and discarding your disposable gloves.
N.B., the Tesla probably accelerates better and with less noise than the 2L diesel. But that said, for the cost of a Tesla, you could probably buy an Audi A4 and run it for 25 years (in the rather unlikely event your car search has narrowed itself down to exactly these two types of car).
You've got your numbers wrong with the Model S range. The 85kWh pack will go 300 miles by Tesla's estimates. The EPA range is 265 (not 235), but I've driven from Atlanta to Savannah which is approximately 260 miles with 40 miles of range to spare.
Tesla's numbers are good for distance driving and the EPA estimates are good for in-town driving. But since the battery swap is mainly applicable to distance driving, I would use Tesla's estimates.
When I think about how to optimize the time of my day, it's certainly not the time I have to wait while the gas is filling up my tank.
3 minutes looks like a worse-case too. Not sure if that's 100 % honest.
The one thing I didn't like about the demo is they showed it compared to refilling a car, but refilling a car adds more miles to your range than swapping out one of those batteries.
Still, 50% capacity at 200% refuel cost with 400% automobile cost (although I would argue it easily performs/feels like a luxury vehicle so really 100% cost) is pretty good considering the auto industry is about an order of magnitude older than Tesla motors.
Interesting timing on Tesla's part - announcing battery swap
stations less than 4 weeks after battery-swap based Better Place
announced (May 26) that they are shutting down.
This is either an amazing fast pivot, or more likely Tesla had the
swap capability designed in, but the swap station plan held in
reserve to be able to announce swapping so quickly after the
departure of Better Place from the battery swap niche.
I'm really hoping that Tesla licenses the technology to other electric car manufacturers and makes certain their other vehicles (Model X, Roadster) can use it. It would be really silly to have "Tesla Model-S only" service stations.
The Roadster's never going to become magically forward-compatible. Just like it's physically incompatible with superchargers, I'm sure it's physically incompatible with having its battery swapped.
Conversely, the X has a huge technology overlap with the S. So it's extremely likely that it will work compatibly.
As for licensing the tech to other manufacturers, Elon has already said he's willing to talk with other companies about making the superchargers available, although there's accounting to be worked out.
> Each unit will include 50 loaner battery packs that Tesla owners can borrow for the equivalent of what it costs to fill up a tank of gasoline. The units will cost the company about $500,000 each to install.
It's not a gas station, it's a block buster. You're not swapping, you're renting. And if don't re-swap back for your original battery, they charge you extra for it.
[+] [-] jdietrich|12 years ago|reply
How many times in the last year did you start a trip with a full tank and need to refuel before you reached your destination? The mode answer to that question is zero. According to the Department of Energy, the average vehicle trip is just 10.1 miles. 98% of car journeys are less than 50 miles.
Battery swap technology is irrelevant and always will be. It's a great marketing move by Tesla, because it undermines one of the key arguments against electric cars, but it has little or no practical importance. The fast-charge infrastructure is what matters, because it's cheap enough to realistically become ubiquitous.
We're just very poor at translating our experience of car ownership to electric technology. There's a long thread of comments about peak demand, in which several people clearly haven't internalised the idea that you can charge your electric car at home, so you only need to use a fast-charge or battery swap facility if you've just driven 300 miles in the same day.
[+] [-] glenra|12 years ago|reply
Well, there was that time in the last year that I drove from New York to Jackson, Wyoming and back (~2000 miles each way). If I did that in a Tesla I'd want to battery-swap once or twice a day. Um, it looks like that might be possible sometime in the next year or two. Hurray!
(right now there aren't even any supercharger stations along that route, much less battery-swapping ones. There's an interactive map of stations here: http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger )
Though there's another question about that: How do you charge overnight at a hotel? Do you stay at motels and run an extension cord out the window? Is there a special database somewhere of hotels with convenient charging stations?
[+] [-] rphlx|12 years ago|reply
Anyone who's been to a Costco gas station knows that the petrol refill process is sustainable for hundreds of cars, while the battery swap is "draining a cache" of however many battery packs the station has pre-charged, which my guess is, way less than 100.
They are gonna have a peak demand problem on holiday weekends, etc.
[+] [-] rossjudson|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emarcotte|12 years ago|reply
Take one out, start it charging on a super charger. 60 minutes later it's ready to be used.
[+] [-] oh_sigh|12 years ago|reply
Are you saying that 500(or however many) teslas would all be rolling into the same charge station from 200+ miles away within the same 30 minute(or whatever) window?
And what happens in the rare, almost zero-probability chance that there are no batteries there for you to take in the 90 seconds? You wait 30 minutes for your car to be charged.
[+] [-] machinagod|12 years ago|reply
An automobile network that's also owning their "refueling" network concerns me with the usual lock in concerns. What'd append when other brands want to offer the same service? A multitude of recharge posts all accross the land space each under their car brand flag? Figuring that there's only tesla and ford on this city, instead of the Nissan charging station that I need?
This particular solution seems very specific to Tesla (or even only model S), is there any standard or independent initiative for battery-exchange stations?
[+] [-] gdubs|12 years ago|reply
Just listened to the podcast the other day and was struck by how similar Tesla's model is to what he presented. The entire segment is around the question of "how would Steve Jobs run a car company".
1: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2008/pulpit_20081207_0055...
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jmduke|12 years ago|reply
The Audi A4 takes three minutes to get a tank of gas which will last 448 miles. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Audi-A4-2013/specs/mpg/)
[+] [-] to3m|12 years ago|reply
58.9 miles per imperial gallon in miles per 16.1 US gallons = 789.6 miles.
Diesel fuel is denser, but it comes out of the pump just as quickly. Add perhaps 20 seconds for donning and discarding your disposable gloves.
N.B., the Tesla probably accelerates better and with less noise than the 2L diesel. But that said, for the cost of a Tesla, you could probably buy an Audi A4 and run it for 25 years (in the rather unlikely event your car search has narrowed itself down to exactly these two types of car).
[+] [-] timdorr|12 years ago|reply
Tesla's numbers are good for distance driving and the EPA estimates are good for in-town driving. But since the battery swap is mainly applicable to distance driving, I would use Tesla's estimates.
[+] [-] btian|12 years ago|reply
Battery swap is for long road trips, not everyday usage.
[+] [-] subsystem|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mitchi|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MrSourz|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] akiselev|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thedrbrian|12 years ago|reply
Reuters reckons it'll be the same as filling a petrol car about $60 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-tesla-swap-idUS...
Edit:$60 apparently.
[+] [-] droithomme|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dmckeon|12 years ago|reply
This is either an amazing fast pivot, or more likely Tesla had the swap capability designed in, but the swap station plan held in reserve to be able to announce swapping so quickly after the departure of Better Place from the battery swap niche.
[+] [-] Patrick_Devine|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jholman|12 years ago|reply
Conversely, the X has a huge technology overlap with the S. So it's extremely likely that it will work compatibly.
As for licensing the tech to other manufacturers, Elon has already said he's willing to talk with other companies about making the superchargers available, although there's accounting to be worked out.
[+] [-] notdrunkatall|12 years ago|reply
What does this mean?
[+] [-] ksherlock|12 years ago|reply