Stop using US services?! That's where I started but as of today, I'd go even further:
* Americans no longer welcome in Europe; you think you can spy on us, torture people, kill innocents, trample over longstanding diplomatic conventions to ground a president of a country, put the full might of your police state to hunt down your own freedom fighters, and then come here and have a good time or do business? Think again. US citizens not welcome here anymore!!! You can do what you want in your country, but don't come here if you don't respect our way of life and our privacy.
* Let's kick the Brits out of the EU (they don't seem to be too happy in there anyway); they are basically just a foothold for the American fascists in the EU and do their bidding
* Let's not stop at moving our own email and social accounts to European providers. Refuse to accept emails coming from gmail, yahoo etc. domains! Send automatic replies that explain why and suggesting ways what is acceptable.
The point is: The US electorate and businesses are either pro surveilling the whole world, even their own allies, or they are lethargic and indifferent. If the former, we should draw the consequence and stop having contact and exchanges with them. If the latter, we should increase the cost of doing nothing. Hurt them the only way we, as citizens of the world without a voice in the American police state, can hurt them: In their pocket and in their options to travel and have fun. America is always so happy lecturing the world about democracy. Well then, now you can show us which way the wind really blows in America and its relation with the world.
One approach that may work that is less disruptive is to require a legally mandated warning on all communications that pass through US and UK servers, like "This message passed through US and UK servers via company XXX here in the EU. It may be subject to collection by the NSA and CIA. Contact this company to request routing through EU only servers."
Something like this is not unreasonable. After all we are already putting warning labels on things that are a threat to safety and health. What is happening is a threat to personal freedom and political sovereignty.
Snowden stated that the only thing that stops the NSA from doing something is policy, not legality.
This call by the German minister is exactly the type of thing that should galvanize the US Internet giants to put the full weight of their lobby (http://internetassociation.org/) behind policy reform (if they haven't already).
You need the votes of the People to get elected, but once you're in office the Lobbyists' influence overshadows the People's and members are encouraged to "lean to the green."
The NRA lobby flexed its muscle and secured the 2nd for the time being. It's time for the Internet lobby to flex its muscle to secure the 4th.
The People have a role too -- when the People are aligned behind a great lobbying power, the force of weight is too powerful to ignore.
A SOPA-like blackout and petition would send a strong signal.
At work we've already had this discussion regarding the location of the web apps we use. Not because we manage "highly sensible" data, but because this entire situation bothers us at many levels.
Although not 100% decided, the "biggest" change we are planning is to move all of our Google Apps email/server to a private mail server located here in Europe + encryption for all. This is a relatively easy transition. A tougher change is finding (if it exists) a Box alternative.
Spam filtering is also something that Gmail does pretty well. If you've got a public email address that's 'out there', a serious spam solution is pretty important.
Yeah, the Anglosphere (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK, and the US) has several exclusive treaties and especially strong relationships that would no doubt take precedence over the EU. They already share quite a bit of signals intelligence, e.g. ECHELON. And most of it has been ongoing for decades.
For example, the agreement that created Five Eyes:
All major gov'ts intercept each other's traffic and do espionage (industrial or intelligence) on each other. It's a kind of gentleman's agreement. We know you spy on us, you know we spy on you, but let's pretend we don't, publicly, and if something becomes public (one of us is careless), act outraged and protest. (the Lady doeth protest too much)
But we now see how the fall out from this scandal will affect us. When I build my next API or service will people around the globe use it? Or will they be skeptical and decide to roll their own or go with an offshore competitor? Very irritating.
I believe this may be very helpful. If enough Europeans stop / limit using Google services, then Google's stock price on Wall Street will see the consequences.
Google has powerful lobbyists on Capitol Hill, and they will use their influence to change the playing field such that they either don't have to cooperate as much, or can be more transparent about the cooperation. Either option, or both, would help polish the tarnish on Google's reputation due to this.
Perhaps this is wishful thinking ... kinda like believing Europeans, Asians, etc will build their own Google-replacement ... but it's small a reason for hope, all the same.
Much of your offshore traffic may well pass through US-Europe trunks anyway, so any web service will find it difficult or impossible to avoid this problem.
They should go one step farther. I would love to see Germany set up a program to woo American tech talent to Germany to work on anti-surveillance systems.
Make it a no strings attached program. All you need to do is move to Germany and work with software/hardware that ensures secrecy. You would be given assistance to either join an existing company or set a new one up. Your choice. Financing would also be made available to build anti-surveillance startups.
I say block all US services in EU. It will be inconvenient as hell and incredibly annoying but it will give European companies a chance to fill the void.
And yes I know it can be bypassed but jumping through hoops is always annoying and if European alternatives show up people would be less likely to bother.
No, the only real solution is for the EU to come up with its own proprietary replacement for the internet. Replace everything from HTML up to HTTP with closed source software built by EU governments. Remove any server or computer hardware either built in the US or built by a company that also services the US, and replace them with systems built in the EU. And since you can't trust American IT workers not to be NSA moles they'll have to expel all of them, revoke American visas and bar Americans from entry into any EU nation.
I think a forced warning that your data is going to be held in US servers would work. Similar to the cookie warning that is compulsory here in the UK - otherwise your site risks getting blocked.
No such action will have any direct effect on surveillance. I think it's clear by now that the NSA hoovers everything, regardless of citizenship or location.
But if it has an economic effect, that might get someone's ear.
So yeah, shun US data companies, it may compel the NSA to at least be a little more transparent.
Such short-sighted outcries do not help. He should first consider asking people to stop using US-made, closed source operating systems. Then he should ask Germany's secret service (BND) what they are doing with the data from DE-CIX (e.g. sharing with the NSA ...).
Of course it fucking helps. Every step helps. Your suggestion is so useless to be irritating. "Oh, we can't say anything because there might be some asshole on the internet who could make it sound hypocritical. We best just keep doing fuck all because that's worked so well thus far".
The journalist forgets that tapping into the cables only works for unencrypted traffic - this is actually the reason that NSA bothered Google and others in the first place.
Why doesn't Europe just block US services for "national security reasons?" Like say...china does.
I have to admit, this puts china's blocking in a completely new light...they might have a real argument if I didn't already know they just want to spy on us themselves.
Actions have to be taken. Germany is spying on its citizens. The US is spying on everyone. It's pretty obvious where the priority should be here. Man I'm so sick of any fucking action anyone suggests getting met by a bunch of morons pointing out how it might be "hypocritical". Who gives a fuck?
Exactly. The NSA's purpose for existence is to intercept communications of non USA citizens outside USA borders. Right or wrong, it's simply why they exist in the first place.
The current scandal is due to how much they do it to USA citizens within USA borders ... without getting into the right or wrong of it, the latter is against the Constitution, while the former is not.
This is the same Germany that issues mandatory RFID based national ID cards, and requires all citizens to register with the police when they change residences?
This might be a good time to remind the angry mob that other nations spy just as much, or more so, than the US.
The US just got caught.
This is like the secret of the atom bomb. Once it's out, it's out. No pretending that it doesn't exist any more. Guess what? What you put on the wire is fair game for any of scores of different intelligence agencies. No, not usually the criminal law enforcement folks, but the spy guys.
And most of the politicians in these countries don't know. In fact, for a program like this to be effective, very few people should know.
You can't put that genie back in the bottle by getting mad at the US and pulling your data out. (Not that I blame you. Might make a fine protest. It just does nothing to ensure your privacy and anonymity) In fact, you could actually be opening your data up to even more abuse. Who knows?
The world needs to decide once and for all whether to make this data completely transparent and accessible to all, or an international crime to collect. Pretending this is a USA-only problem is just another way of sticking your head in the sand.
> This might be a good time to remind the angry mob that other nations spy just as much, or more so, than the US.
Probably not "as much"; quantity of spying is limited by quantity of resources available for spying, and the US probably outspends most other nations (quite likely, as with military spending more generally, at or near the amount of all other nations combined) on spying.
The only way to stop this kind of thing is to restrict the size of your sovereign nation to a size where the citizenry can actually have some idea what their state is doing ... maxing out at a million or so, say: you dont see governments like Iceland or the Swiss cantons acting in this kind of out-of-control manner.
Funny thing is, this is coming from a politician who usually shows no qualms when it comes to invading people's privacy. If anything, he's merely envies the NSA for its extensive surveillance capabilities.
If German politicians really wanted to do something they could to do so easily by granting asylum to Edward Snowden.
Just out of interest, given the revelation that the UK is tapping underwater fibres, anyone know if they have a plan to stop doing it? Or they just going to carry on?
[+] [-] HSO|12 years ago|reply
* Americans no longer welcome in Europe; you think you can spy on us, torture people, kill innocents, trample over longstanding diplomatic conventions to ground a president of a country, put the full might of your police state to hunt down your own freedom fighters, and then come here and have a good time or do business? Think again. US citizens not welcome here anymore!!! You can do what you want in your country, but don't come here if you don't respect our way of life and our privacy.
* Let's kick the Brits out of the EU (they don't seem to be too happy in there anyway); they are basically just a foothold for the American fascists in the EU and do their bidding
* Let's not stop at moving our own email and social accounts to European providers. Refuse to accept emails coming from gmail, yahoo etc. domains! Send automatic replies that explain why and suggesting ways what is acceptable.
The point is: The US electorate and businesses are either pro surveilling the whole world, even their own allies, or they are lethargic and indifferent. If the former, we should draw the consequence and stop having contact and exchanges with them. If the latter, we should increase the cost of doing nothing. Hurt them the only way we, as citizens of the world without a voice in the American police state, can hurt them: In their pocket and in their options to travel and have fun. America is always so happy lecturing the world about democracy. Well then, now you can show us which way the wind really blows in America and its relation with the world.
[+] [-] malandrew|12 years ago|reply
Something like this is not unreasonable. After all we are already putting warning labels on things that are a threat to safety and health. What is happening is a threat to personal freedom and political sovereignty.
[+] [-] espeed|12 years ago|reply
This call by the German minister is exactly the type of thing that should galvanize the US Internet giants to put the full weight of their lobby (http://internetassociation.org/) behind policy reform (if they haven't already).
As Lessig has been eloquently pointing out for years (http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_t...), the elected serve two masters -- the Funders (SuperPACs/Lobbyists) and the People.
You need the votes of the People to get elected, but once you're in office the Lobbyists' influence overshadows the People's and members are encouraged to "lean to the green."
The NRA lobby flexed its muscle and secured the 2nd for the time being. It's time for the Internet lobby to flex its muscle to secure the 4th.
The People have a role too -- when the People are aligned behind a great lobbying power, the force of weight is too powerful to ignore.
A SOPA-like blackout and petition would send a strong signal.
[+] [-] antr|12 years ago|reply
Although not 100% decided, the "biggest" change we are planning is to move all of our Google Apps email/server to a private mail server located here in Europe + encryption for all. This is a relatively easy transition. A tougher change is finding (if it exists) a Box alternative.
[+] [-] davidw|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] olegp|12 years ago|reply
We just added the country where each SaaS app is hosted, so you should be able to find some EU based alternatives to Box quickly.
[+] [-] hrayr|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kimlelly|12 years ago|reply
Depending on your needs, RetroShare might be the one: http://retroshare.sourceforge.net/
[+] [-] Filecloud|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alan_cx|12 years ago|reply
Also, if the EU wants to block the US in what ever way, its going to need to block the UK too, since it will side with the US.
[+] [-] clarkm|12 years ago|reply
For example, the agreement that created Five Eyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement
[+] [-] mc32|12 years ago|reply
All major gov'ts intercept each other's traffic and do espionage (industrial or intelligence) on each other. It's a kind of gentleman's agreement. We know you spy on us, you know we spy on you, but let's pretend we don't, publicly, and if something becomes public (one of us is careless), act outraged and protest. (the Lady doeth protest too much)
[+] [-] claudius|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ianstallings|12 years ago|reply
But we now see how the fall out from this scandal will affect us. When I build my next API or service will people around the globe use it? Or will they be skeptical and decide to roll their own or go with an offshore competitor? Very irritating.
[+] [-] BrandonMarc|12 years ago|reply
Google has powerful lobbyists on Capitol Hill, and they will use their influence to change the playing field such that they either don't have to cooperate as much, or can be more transparent about the cooperation. Either option, or both, would help polish the tarnish on Google's reputation due to this.
Perhaps this is wishful thinking ... kinda like believing Europeans, Asians, etc will build their own Google-replacement ... but it's small a reason for hope, all the same.
[+] [-] blueprint|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] malandrew|12 years ago|reply
Make it a no strings attached program. All you need to do is move to Germany and work with software/hardware that ensures secrecy. You would be given assistance to either join an existing company or set a new one up. Your choice. Financing would also be made available to build anti-surveillance startups.
[+] [-] weland|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ippisl|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mbillie1|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fuxy|12 years ago|reply
And yes I know it can be bypassed but jumping through hoops is always annoying and if European alternatives show up people would be less likely to bother.
I would do it just to see what happens :)
[+] [-] krapp|12 years ago|reply
Only then will Europe be truly free.
[+] [-] muyuu|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gst|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danmaz74|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] a3n|12 years ago|reply
But if it has an economic effect, that might get someone's ear.
So yeah, shun US data companies, it may compel the NSA to at least be a little more transparent.
[+] [-] flyinRyan|12 years ago|reply
EDIT: appears the claim isn't as big as I thought, though I'm surprised that's not the case!
[+] [-] lazyjones|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flyinRyan|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zby|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] voidlogic|12 years ago|reply
Most big sites don't use forward perfect secrecy making MITM achievable.
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|12 years ago|reply
I have to admit, this puts china's blocking in a completely new light...they might have a real argument if I didn't already know they just want to spy on us themselves.
[+] [-] blueprint|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flyinRyan|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mhd|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whiskeychaser|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BrandonMarc|12 years ago|reply
The current scandal is due to how much they do it to USA citizens within USA borders ... without getting into the right or wrong of it, the latter is against the Constitution, while the former is not.
[+] [-] esolyt|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kimlelly|12 years ago|reply
Then make sure your operating system is open source.
[+] [-] embolism|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DanielBMarkham|12 years ago|reply
The US just got caught.
This is like the secret of the atom bomb. Once it's out, it's out. No pretending that it doesn't exist any more. Guess what? What you put on the wire is fair game for any of scores of different intelligence agencies. No, not usually the criminal law enforcement folks, but the spy guys.
And most of the politicians in these countries don't know. In fact, for a program like this to be effective, very few people should know.
You can't put that genie back in the bottle by getting mad at the US and pulling your data out. (Not that I blame you. Might make a fine protest. It just does nothing to ensure your privacy and anonymity) In fact, you could actually be opening your data up to even more abuse. Who knows?
The world needs to decide once and for all whether to make this data completely transparent and accessible to all, or an international crime to collect. Pretending this is a USA-only problem is just another way of sticking your head in the sand.
[+] [-] dragonwriter|12 years ago|reply
Probably not "as much"; quantity of spying is limited by quantity of resources available for spying, and the US probably outspends most other nations (quite likely, as with military spending more generally, at or near the amount of all other nations combined) on spying.
[+] [-] sbmassey|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BjoernKW|12 years ago|reply
If German politicians really wanted to do something they could to do so easily by granting asylum to Edward Snowden.
[+] [-] ekianjo|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sneak|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] toomuchtodo|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xedarius|12 years ago|reply
If they do decide to stop, how do we check?