Meanwhile a distracting footer covers >25% of the page, and clicking the intuitive "down arrow"-looking thing does nothing, nor is there an obvious close button. You close it with that über-readable burnt-orange-on-charcoal link "Ok, enough already. Hide the footer." Either they assume the user scans for "Ok," when wanting to close something, or that they skim sentences from the inside-out. If you do close it and click it again, which usually means "reopen", you instead get scrolled down to the bottom of the page.
Do you trust any advice they have about user interfaces?
NoScript wins again. I didn't even know there was a problem until I went back and deliberately turned on scripting for the domain.
(I mention this just because in the periodic NoScript debates that show up here, I think people don't believe me when I say for every site it hurts, there's another site it silently improves.)
I agree on the footer, but I'd go ahead and assume it's 100% intentional.
If I had to guess, it's to entice people to scroll down. I don't think it's done perfectly, but I do think the execution of this idea is better on http://goodui.org/howtoabtest.html
The fact that there is something there, and it's kind of hidden (at least on my screen) then there is this natural curiosity built up..
It's important to have good content to draw people downwards, but when you combine good content with small psychological tricks-- it might just pay off. The guy has 17K email subscribers and that is a lot of people who do trust him
Ugh. It felt extremely weird to read an entire article with that thing obscuring such a huge part of the bottom of the page. The best description of the feeling that I can think of is that it kind of felt like I was reading it by shoulder-surfing somebody else's browsing session on the train.
That, and the general focus of the content itself, put across a message of conversion-centric design rather than human-centric design. Ignoring the way a person feels while interacting your design just to increase signup conversions. Not nice.
Agreed, horrible interface - I didn't work out how to hide the banner. And the banner combined with the large font and big separation on the page made my reading feel really restricted - couldn't read it easily.
As I scroll, it keeps reappearing right in the middle of the content, then flashes away after 2 seconds
When I got to the end, it was nigh impossible to actually get the footer to show (or whatever the sign up box was) I finally got to enter my name but then going to [Next] on iPad just made the whole thing disappear and I couldnt get it back.
I like their ideas, really dislike their execution, that was a frustrating experience.
The footer isn't so bad on a rMBP, but that's still not a very good excuse for why it's so big on lower resolution machines. I did find the information on the page quite helpful.
Dear HN, just because someone makes a blog post about good UI elements, doesn't mean you need to shit on details big or small about the specific site (e.g. the big footer).
For most people, this is a great way to understand the possibilities for different UIs to test. Instead of just copying others, you can think more abstractly about the UI ideas.
It's not just people's desire to shit on something in order to feel superior (although that's likely quite a bit of it).
It's the fact that if you have a website dedicated to good user interface, and you want to be known as an authority on good user interfaces, and the site on which you intend to launch or grow this authority has a completely FUBARed user interface... I think it's fair to point that out.
Orange text on dark background? Whatever, it's perfectly readable unless you have poor eyesight. Footer taking up a full third of the page with no quickly discernable way to close it? Definite problem and cause for concern regarding your purported authority on that very issue.
What's particularly interesting about the big footer as a UI problem here is that it underscores the trickiness of balancing good UI with converting. For instance, people came to hate popup windows, and they became anathema to a good UI. However, the reason they were used is because they succeeded in getting the user's attention.
Likewise, in this article, the giant footer takes up half my tablet's page, yet the author does this because it contains his call to action.
It is completely fair to point out the irony of an article about good UI design residing on a site with questionable UI design. And while many of the points made were common sense or already known to me, I did learn and/or refresh a bit and so personally appreciated the article.
Still, it would be good to get more insight about the far trickier question: how to engage and compel users to your call to action without having to resort to offending them with popups, giant footers, etc.
Thank you. I really wish the #1 comment here were something debating the merits of the article rather than questioning the author's ability to implement his own advice.
On one hand this is true; on the other, this is a result of the horizontal (flat) treatment of comments that make pedantic comments appear the same as deeper ones.
The one upvote button just means that people agree, not that they think it's an important, insightful comment, and that's why we see those comments float to the top.
As the OP, in this case and others, I wouldn't too much into those comments, because I too know how skull-numbingly hairsplitting and pedantic comments here can be - or seem.
You are free to chose a different topic in this thread to contribute to if you don't feel like discussing the big footer. You can talk about more than one topic per submission; that's why HN is a tree, not a linear board.
Also, to "shit on details big or small" is, in other words, to provide (somewhat constructive) feedback, which helps both the site author (if he/she reads it) and us here learn and grow. This is the whole point of HN.
I'm on the really-hates-the-footer camp. It's off-putting. See the thing about the footer is that you already broke rule #2, you're trying to close the sale(it's not a gift, I know you're trying to get me to sign up to your newsletter) So putting it out like that is just obnoxious, and no one likes an obnoxious salesman. You should have just put the offer at the very bottom, once I read your article and I'm liking what you're saying, when I'm half-sold, not the large black footer that cuts out 1/3 of my screen, and I'm on an old macbook air, so screen real-estate is important to me at all times. And as was noted by ascimo(sic?) in this thread, on an android device it literally blocks the content!
The other thing is that it kinda doesn't sell you, which sucks because I'm sure you're a great dude, but you're telling me I should sign up because you're awesome, you're smarter, and you have way more fans than me. If you would have told me how it would have made my life easier, or the holy mantra (increase revenue, decrease costs) then it would have had a better shot.
The other thing is the headline, then copy, then picture layout of the bullet points. This goes against how we scan things, which is picture then headline then body copy. Visual, then bold and big, then small print. When you scroll down, the first thing you see is the picture, and then I have to scan up real fast, and then read down. Watch yourself and you'll do the same thing.
Also, that text is not organized in columns, so it makes it hard to read. Dividing it into two columns (like, say, a book, the epitome of the two column layout) would be so much easier to read and in turn, sell me more on what you're saying.
I usually have my NoScript turned on, and it was a very pleasant read because I didn't even realize there was a footer there until I turned on scripts. In my opinion, the experience was better with the scripts off, even if the font wasn't as cool. I got the value from the article without the scripts on and footer missing.
The concept of "Good UI" covers way more than "a few quick pointers for selling a product".
Kinda like going to a page called "goodcuisine.com" and finding it's a dozen suggestions about cooking and topping hamburgers, with half the points dwelling mostly on arranging utensils, and a big persistent chunk of the page devoted to disposable plates.
As I scrolled down, reading each point, I began to notice something happening to the number of each item in the periphery of my vision. It took until point 5 before I figured out what it was: the circle around the number is dark grey until it gets to around the top quarter of the screen (on my screen, at least) at which point it becomes light grey.
I'm still trying to decide if this is a good idea. Now that I have inferred it is functioning as a kind of visited-link visual effect, I can leave the page, return later, and quickly pick up where I left off.
Then again, none of the points are long to read. Worse, I've left the page after finishing reading point 7 and have no real interest in returning now, let alone after enough time has passed that I've forgotten where I left off (in which case I would likely also have forgotten what I had already read).
In other words, I'm inclined to think that this is mainly a needless visual distraction that actually disrupted me from reading the piece and has ever-so-slightly nudged me toward the decision not to bother returning to it.
That would seem to fall under the category of Bad UI.
I like this, but what is the point of the "Looks like you have 16 unread ideas" part? A user is only going to see that when I first land on the page, and hence it's always going to read 16. When is a user ever going to scroll back up to the top to check the count after having scrolled part way down the page?
Its meant to be a list of ideas thats occasionally updated (hence the mailing list). If you go back to the page, it will instantly tell you if its been updated or not (assuming you kept the cookie).
It's funny how these trends change. Once upon a time, a one column layout would have been boring, and we all ran to frames to give us columns. I guess I'm just old-timer enough now to start seeing the changes.
I personally reject the notion that "...A Good User Interface
has high conversion rates and is easy to use". I don't agree that it is a requirement that a good UI has high conversion rates. In fact I would argue that software can have a good UI and poor conversion rates. A good UI is responsible to the user only; it's not called a USER interface for nothing.
I'd be very interested to see how well it converted, as it would seem that the main idea is to get people to sign up to Jakub's email list (which I have done on the strength of the material).
Jakub, would you be willing to share your conversion numbers from the influx of HN traffic based on this page? Maybe send it out in the newsletter I just signed up for :-)
I'm one of those who has signed up. I guess I'm probably one of the many developers who are also really bad at copy out there also. (As you can see at usehuman.com)
Any empirical evidence to show any of these things are actually good? Some "seem" to be common sense (e.g. less form fields to lower sign up friction) but a lot of the other things appear to be what one UX designer thinks it's a good idea rather than anything that might actually help you.
Your target audience is going to heavily influence most of these.
At a previous company our target audience was older women. We A-B tested every single element on our landing page, and I can tell you, using the advice on this site would be a complete disaster.
I love this guide and I love how it's presented. The ideas look easier to use and definitely look nicer.
I would, however, be weary of implementing these ideas for the purposes of improving conversion because there aren't any numbers with each improvement. How does this author know for sure these ideas improve conversion? If they have been split-tested, this article provides a very good starting point of ideas for your own tests.
I'm not urging against trying these ideas though, definitely not, but please do test these for yourself. There are loads of factors which may make these ideas less ideal, such as your market, your product or service, your branding; the factors are potentially unlimited. Use a good A/B testing tool and measure impact on your conversions when implementing these!
Testimonials are one of the things that make me skip things right away. I would explain why, but I'm afraid that would at best be used to find ways to circumvent that, and deprive me of one of the litmus tests for mediocrity and needyness.
Speaking of needy: Calls to action I accept from activists, but that's it. Just describe the service or product, name the price, instead of treating me like a moron who needs to pulled along the funnel. Keep your gifts, too. Well, all of that depends on your target audience I guess - I surely am not in it, phew.
It's really surprising to see a comment like this, so wrong on something and yet upvoted. Crucially, your view is entirely anecdotal - a much better argument would be "Testimonials are a bad way to sell things because X" where X is a reason that is valid and tested.
Unfortunately, X for you is either highly personal or based on a faulty understanding of persuasion because social proof is incredibly powerful as a persuasive technique - research, testing, and daily commerce bear it out. It is tried and tested and used by marketers and businesses everywhere. The reason? Social proof works. Knowing that someone that you lend credibility to thinks that this thing is good/useful/etc helps you make a decision about it, whether you think it does or not. Content tends to inherit the value that is near it (e.g. important people, powerful companies, athletes, etc). A patio11 quote is in order here: "content which bears social proof will, in A/B tests, often ROFLstomp absolutely equivalent content lacking social proof."[0] Dr. Robert Cialdini's Influence has an entire chapter on social proof.
Based on much experienced I can confidently say that testimonials are one of the most powerful promotional devices you can use. Perhaps the ones you are seeing have not been done properly. Even just displaying logos of some marquee customers is extremely powerful.
It's a list of things to try out in order to improve conversions. Individual items on the list may not appeal to you (or me, either), but that misses the point of the article.
I found this an interesting read (I happen to use noscript and so saw a long scrolling page with no jumping footer).
However, as the 'call to action' at the bottom of the page suggests more content to come, I have to wonder if the address of this page (http://goodui.org/) will remain the same or if the new content will replace this content. There appears to be no easily discoverable 'permalink'. Is this a noscript artefact?
There are a few good ideas in here, but a lot of questionable ones.
For example:
Turn your content into marked lists rather than have a gap?
The list format is only really useful for indicating additional content if you're providing some sort of marking like 1/16, 2/16, etc. to indicate position relative to "the end." The whole thing about the visual gap is just as true with the gap between list items and other content formats.
[+] [-] oinksoft|12 years ago|reply
Do you trust any advice they have about user interfaces?
[+] [-] jerf|12 years ago|reply
(I mention this just because in the periodic NoScript debates that show up here, I think people don't believe me when I say for every site it hurts, there's another site it silently improves.)
[+] [-] acoyfellow|12 years ago|reply
If I had to guess, it's to entice people to scroll down. I don't think it's done perfectly, but I do think the execution of this idea is better on http://goodui.org/howtoabtest.html
The fact that there is something there, and it's kind of hidden (at least on my screen) then there is this natural curiosity built up..
It's important to have good content to draw people downwards, but when you combine good content with small psychological tricks-- it might just pay off. The guy has 17K email subscribers and that is a lot of people who do trust him
[+] [-] h2s|12 years ago|reply
That, and the general focus of the content itself, put across a message of conversion-centric design rather than human-centric design. Ignoring the way a person feels while interacting your design just to increase signup conversions. Not nice.
[+] [-] bencoder|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rschmitty|12 years ago|reply
As I scroll, it keeps reappearing right in the middle of the content, then flashes away after 2 seconds
When I got to the end, it was nigh impossible to actually get the footer to show (or whatever the sign up box was) I finally got to enter my name but then going to [Next] on iPad just made the whole thing disappear and I couldnt get it back.
I like their ideas, really dislike their execution, that was a frustrating experience.
[+] [-] bgnm2000|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elliottcarlson|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] comatose_kid|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kenkam|12 years ago|reply
Edit: It's a good idea, great marketing idea, in fact. But when you're advertising ideas to improve UI, I will be quicker to judge...
[+] [-] stephengillie|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joeblau|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ochs|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway1979|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ziomislaw|12 years ago|reply
I actually didn't see the footer at all, shows how my brain learned to keep me sane.
[+] [-] pbreit|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] symr|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fpckalk|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ivankirigin|12 years ago|reply
For most people, this is a great way to understand the possibilities for different UIs to test. Instead of just copying others, you can think more abstractly about the UI ideas.
[+] [-] pc86|12 years ago|reply
It's the fact that if you have a website dedicated to good user interface, and you want to be known as an authority on good user interfaces, and the site on which you intend to launch or grow this authority has a completely FUBARed user interface... I think it's fair to point that out.
Orange text on dark background? Whatever, it's perfectly readable unless you have poor eyesight. Footer taking up a full third of the page with no quickly discernable way to close it? Definite problem and cause for concern regarding your purported authority on that very issue.
[+] [-] unclebucknasty|12 years ago|reply
Likewise, in this article, the giant footer takes up half my tablet's page, yet the author does this because it contains his call to action.
It is completely fair to point out the irony of an article about good UI design residing on a site with questionable UI design. And while many of the points made were common sense or already known to me, I did learn and/or refresh a bit and so personally appreciated the article.
Still, it would be good to get more insight about the far trickier question: how to engage and compel users to your call to action without having to resort to offending them with popups, giant footers, etc.
[+] [-] kapilkale|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kmfrk|12 years ago|reply
The one upvote button just means that people agree, not that they think it's an important, insightful comment, and that's why we see those comments float to the top.
As the OP, in this case and others, I wouldn't too much into those comments, because I too know how skull-numbingly hairsplitting and pedantic comments here can be - or seem.
[+] [-] TeMPOraL|12 years ago|reply
Also, to "shit on details big or small" is, in other words, to provide (somewhat constructive) feedback, which helps both the site author (if he/she reads it) and us here learn and grow. This is the whole point of HN.
[+] [-] ulisesrmzroche|12 years ago|reply
I'm on the really-hates-the-footer camp. It's off-putting. See the thing about the footer is that you already broke rule #2, you're trying to close the sale(it's not a gift, I know you're trying to get me to sign up to your newsletter) So putting it out like that is just obnoxious, and no one likes an obnoxious salesman. You should have just put the offer at the very bottom, once I read your article and I'm liking what you're saying, when I'm half-sold, not the large black footer that cuts out 1/3 of my screen, and I'm on an old macbook air, so screen real-estate is important to me at all times. And as was noted by ascimo(sic?) in this thread, on an android device it literally blocks the content!
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5996040
The other thing is that it kinda doesn't sell you, which sucks because I'm sure you're a great dude, but you're telling me I should sign up because you're awesome, you're smarter, and you have way more fans than me. If you would have told me how it would have made my life easier, or the holy mantra (increase revenue, decrease costs) then it would have had a better shot.
The other thing is the headline, then copy, then picture layout of the bullet points. This goes against how we scan things, which is picture then headline then body copy. Visual, then bold and big, then small print. When you scroll down, the first thing you see is the picture, and then I have to scan up real fast, and then read down. Watch yourself and you'll do the same thing.
Also, that text is not organized in columns, so it makes it hard to read. Dividing it into two columns (like, say, a book, the epitome of the two column layout) would be so much easier to read and in turn, sell me more on what you're saying.
[+] [-] rexreed|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cookingrobot|12 years ago|reply
All of this is just gifts to get you to know/trust/like them so that maybe in the future you'll buy their service.
[+] [-] ctdonath|12 years ago|reply
Kinda like going to a page called "goodcuisine.com" and finding it's a dozen suggestions about cooking and topping hamburgers, with half the points dwelling mostly on arranging utensils, and a big persistent chunk of the page devoted to disposable plates.
Great domain name, squandered.
[+] [-] Jare|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RyanMcGreal|12 years ago|reply
I'm still trying to decide if this is a good idea. Now that I have inferred it is functioning as a kind of visited-link visual effect, I can leave the page, return later, and quickly pick up where I left off.
Then again, none of the points are long to read. Worse, I've left the page after finishing reading point 7 and have no real interest in returning now, let alone after enough time has passed that I've forgotten where I left off (in which case I would likely also have forgotten what I had already read).
In other words, I'm inclined to think that this is mainly a needless visual distraction that actually disrupted me from reading the piece and has ever-so-slightly nudged me toward the decision not to bother returning to it.
That would seem to fall under the category of Bad UI.
[+] [-] ape4|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sethbannon|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cloverich|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] k__|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eddieroger|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kcbanner|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jalfresi|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boothead|12 years ago|reply
I'd be very interested to see how well it converted, as it would seem that the main idea is to get people to sign up to Jakub's email list (which I have done on the strength of the material).
Jakub, would you be willing to share your conversion numbers from the influx of HN traffic based on this page? Maybe send it out in the newsletter I just signed up for :-)
edit why the downvote?
[+] [-] amac|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] giulianob|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] borlak|12 years ago|reply
At a previous company our target audience was older women. We A-B tested every single element on our landing page, and I can tell you, using the advice on this site would be a complete disaster.
[+] [-] jwdunne|12 years ago|reply
I would, however, be weary of implementing these ideas for the purposes of improving conversion because there aren't any numbers with each improvement. How does this author know for sure these ideas improve conversion? If they have been split-tested, this article provides a very good starting point of ideas for your own tests.
I'm not urging against trying these ideas though, definitely not, but please do test these for yourself. There are loads of factors which may make these ideas less ideal, such as your market, your product or service, your branding; the factors are potentially unlimited. Use a good A/B testing tool and measure impact on your conversions when implementing these!
[+] [-] PavlovsCat|12 years ago|reply
Speaking of needy: Calls to action I accept from activists, but that's it. Just describe the service or product, name the price, instead of treating me like a moron who needs to pulled along the funnel. Keep your gifts, too. Well, all of that depends on your target audience I guess - I surely am not in it, phew.
[+] [-] latortuga|12 years ago|reply
Unfortunately, X for you is either highly personal or based on a faulty understanding of persuasion because social proof is incredibly powerful as a persuasive technique - research, testing, and daily commerce bear it out. It is tried and tested and used by marketers and businesses everywhere. The reason? Social proof works. Knowing that someone that you lend credibility to thinks that this thing is good/useful/etc helps you make a decision about it, whether you think it does or not. Content tends to inherit the value that is near it (e.g. important people, powerful companies, athletes, etc). A patio11 quote is in order here: "content which bears social proof will, in A/B tests, often ROFLstomp absolutely equivalent content lacking social proof."[0] Dr. Robert Cialdini's Influence has an entire chapter on social proof.
[0] http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/05/31/can-i-get-your-email/
[+] [-] pbreit|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nhebb|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] keithpeter|12 years ago|reply
However, as the 'call to action' at the bottom of the page suggests more content to come, I have to wonder if the address of this page (http://goodui.org/) will remain the same or if the new content will replace this content. There appears to be no easily discoverable 'permalink'. Is this a noscript artefact?
[+] [-] 3amOpsGuy|12 years ago|reply
Power users aren't tripped up with an annoying confirmation. Novice users can revert. This seems a much better paradigm.
Are there any cases where this doesn't make for good UX?
[+] [-] wavefunction|12 years ago|reply
For example:
Turn your content into marked lists rather than have a gap?
The list format is only really useful for indicating additional content if you're providing some sort of marking like 1/16, 2/16, etc. to indicate position relative to "the end." The whole thing about the visual gap is just as true with the gap between list items and other content formats.
[+] [-] adamlj|12 years ago|reply