One commenter there wrote and I'd like to read some reasonable answer to that:
This is old news, obviously no one watched 4 Corners years ago – I think 15 – 20 yrs ago. I think it was about a program called Echelon. Remember the time a New Zealander broke into one of those unmanned “Pine Gap” sites (in NZ) and found mainframe computers downloading telecommunications data. Did we care then?
Nobody cared then because they didn't understand it.
If all you show someone is a building with some equipment and say that they're monitoring you, it doesn't take much hand-waving to convince someone that these complex systems are only targeting certain people, etc.
Now, rather than just knowledge of a room with blinking lights, we have dumbed-down presentation slides that definitively show even the most computer-illterate person that their own personal data, not just the data of specific people, is being targeted, collected, stored, data-mined, etc.
It goes from a feeling of "it's probably legal, and targeting criminals" to "that's MY data they're stealing"
That's why people care. Moreover, it's just important that people DO care. If everyone adopted the same "why should we care now" attitude, then the powers that be have already won.
Nobody cared then and nobody cares now, except for a few IT geeks.
In a 15 - 20 years from now the whole lot will have been mostly forgotten and accepted as normal.
There and more important things in the politics such as gay marriage and immigration. Try watching CNN or Fox News and ignoring technical sites. The politicians want votes, they couldn't give a shit about your privacy.
Australia and the US have been keeping call records (number called and time) for well over 20 years. I don't see how any of this is new(s).
Pine Gap is in Australia not New Zealand, not that anyone really cares. :)
And for the tedious people that want sources;
Look up how General Patreus got busted with his gmail.
Look up the Tampa incident and see how Australia listened into the telephone calls between the boat and Norway(or some such country).
There are loads of incidents that spell this shit out but I need sleep and most people would rather watch a speech from Obama/Bush/Palin/Trump than learn what their government is really doing.
Maybe nobody cared because nobody figured they'd be able to retain the data they captured forever, or that eventually governments would acquire enough processing bandwidth to use the captured data in near realtime.
In the age of social media, we do the public outrage thing a lot better these days, too.
MICHAEL BRISSENDEN: The existence of the Echelon network was only confirmed a few weeks ago when US National Security Agency documents were declassified. Essentially it's a surveillance network capable of intercepting any telephone call, fax or e-mail made on earth. Echelon is run by the US National Security Agency using satellites and ground bases in Britain, Australia, Canada and New Zealand. It can sift through a million electronic messages every half hour.
Worse, a number of ISPs use Telstra's lines, eg. iiNet, Internode, TPG. I have no idea if that agreement also covered others using the same cables.
(Telstra was government-owned until it was privatised from 1997-2000, and as such has a monopoly on most of the phone lines; the government sets the wholesale rates at which the lines are leased to other companies. Optus ran a bunch of their own cables, but the coverage isn't nearly as extensive.)
At least when running on Internode hardware, the traffic only runs on Telstra copper; once terminated at the exchange (on Agile/Internode DSLAM), it pushes out into Internode's backhaul/network. (It's a moot point if the backhaul is Telstra owned I guess, or significant parts of the private network is leased from Telstra...)
Still worse, as mandated by the Australian government, won't all internet traffic eventually switch over to the new government owned/controlled FTTP and wireless infrastructure of the National Broadband Network?
Note that Telstra was once owned by the Australian government. Recently their stake was reduced to about 10% (according to wikipedia) but IMO the Aussie government still dictates a lot of what Telstra can do.
Interesting that nobody I've talked to over here seems to be that surprised about the extensive data collection. A few people are annoyed about the unaccountable way it's been done and the abuse of power, real or potential, though.
It takes a lot to shake Aussies out of the "she'll be right" mentality, and we don't have a Fourth Amendment to be violated like the US does.
I also fear that the aware, technically literate people here won't attempt to move Parliament House on the issue, they'll just resort to stronger encryption.
Every time I try to explain the implications of privacy intrusion to friends some always argue, "who cares, as long as you're not doing something wrong" - they also don't care about identity theft or anything...they simply don't care. And I want them to care...how do I force them to?
Those attitudes are what makes a system like this incredibly scary, and what ultimately makes it most effective. What we've created is more or less a panoptic society where by knowing they are being watched all the time, people become self policing. At that point it's just a matter of how you define what is 'wrong' which is likely just going to be what opposes the current status quo.
Why do you think you have the right to "force" them?
Just explaining, only when they are interested to hear, and not giving theory but the real-life examples is the only sensible advice. Of course, you have to do your homework first.
Big Telcos are at the mercy of big governments for anti-trust issues, contracts so this is not a surprise. DOJ and FBI can cause them many headaches.
This should bite them though when trying to buy foreign firms, cable links etc. No rational and influential country would let them do it after these leaks.
acqq|12 years ago
This is old news, obviously no one watched 4 Corners years ago – I think 15 – 20 yrs ago. I think it was about a program called Echelon. Remember the time a New Zealander broke into one of those unmanned “Pine Gap” sites (in NZ) and found mainframe computers downloading telecommunications data. Did we care then?
halviti|12 years ago
If all you show someone is a building with some equipment and say that they're monitoring you, it doesn't take much hand-waving to convince someone that these complex systems are only targeting certain people, etc.
Now, rather than just knowledge of a room with blinking lights, we have dumbed-down presentation slides that definitively show even the most computer-illterate person that their own personal data, not just the data of specific people, is being targeted, collected, stored, data-mined, etc.
It goes from a feeling of "it's probably legal, and targeting criminals" to "that's MY data they're stealing"
That's why people care. Moreover, it's just important that people DO care. If everyone adopted the same "why should we care now" attitude, then the powers that be have already won.
tnuc|12 years ago
In a 15 - 20 years from now the whole lot will have been mostly forgotten and accepted as normal.
There and more important things in the politics such as gay marriage and immigration. Try watching CNN or Fox News and ignoring technical sites. The politicians want votes, they couldn't give a shit about your privacy.
Australia and the US have been keeping call records (number called and time) for well over 20 years. I don't see how any of this is new(s).
Pine Gap is in Australia not New Zealand, not that anyone really cares. :)
And for the tedious people that want sources; Look up how General Patreus got busted with his gmail. Look up the Tampa incident and see how Australia listened into the telephone calls between the boat and Norway(or some such country). There are loads of incidents that spell this shit out but I need sleep and most people would rather watch a speech from Obama/Bush/Palin/Trump than learn what their government is really doing.
dcfindlay|12 years ago
In the age of social media, we do the public outrage thing a lot better these days, too.
tvwonline|12 years ago
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s103059.htm
Edit: pulled out a quote:
MICHAEL BRISSENDEN: The existence of the Echelon network was only confirmed a few weeks ago when US National Security Agency documents were declassified. Essentially it's a surveillance network capable of intercepting any telephone call, fax or e-mail made on earth. Echelon is run by the US National Security Agency using satellites and ground bases in Britain, Australia, Canada and New Zealand. It can sift through a million electronic messages every half hour.
damncabbage|12 years ago
(Telstra was government-owned until it was privatised from 1997-2000, and as such has a monopoly on most of the phone lines; the government sets the wholesale rates at which the lines are leased to other companies. Optus ran a bunch of their own cables, but the coverage isn't nearly as extensive.)
celeryreally|12 years ago
daegloe|12 years ago
arjn|12 years ago
xyzzy123|12 years ago
dcfindlay|12 years ago
It takes a lot to shake Aussies out of the "she'll be right" mentality, and we don't have a Fourth Amendment to be violated like the US does.
I also fear that the aware, technically literate people here won't attempt to move Parliament House on the issue, they'll just resort to stronger encryption.
edit:grammar
voltagex_|12 years ago
sev|12 years ago
imagross|12 years ago
acqq|12 years ago
Just explaining, only when they are interested to hear, and not giving theory but the real-life examples is the only sensible advice. Of course, you have to do your homework first.
CPAhem|12 years ago
decryptthis_NSA|12 years ago
This should bite them though when trying to buy foreign firms, cable links etc. No rational and influential country would let them do it after these leaks.