At the risk of sounding insensitive (I'm not), I'd like to make a reminder that Hitler persecuted Jews and homosexuals alike...the Jews were a priority for him, but he had infrastructure dedicated to several groups.
More importantly, because this article doesn't really cite much except for Stephen Fry's word, I'd like to here highlight that it's very much factual and well-documented, so as to remove doubt:
I direct your attention particularly to the treatment of those who speak out against the anti-Gay laws, usually resulting in imprisonment. Moreover, the last poll put public support for Gay rights incredibly low - 74% stated they believe homosexuality should be banned and "rejected" from society.
EDIT: Upon re-reading the article, I think it would also prudent to point out there's no mention of strong nationalism playing into this. While the issue of LGBT rights in Russia is obviously well-documented and a persistent problem, I think it might be a mischaracterization to claim they are being "blamed" for the nation's problems in the same way Hitler used the Jews as a scapegoat. Putin is a very well-established and popular leader if I recall correctly, so I also don't see why he'd need such a polarizing campaign.
"Putin is a very well-established and popular leader if I recall correctly, so I also don't see why he'd need such a polarizing campaign"
He got 52% where I live, it's good for an American president but like a failure for a Popular Dictator.
And polarizing is what he does every day since fall 2011. He's no longer the president of all russians, he's a president of all russians minus a long and detailed list of people he accuses of various wrongdoings or wrongthinkings.
What part of that comment did you think might sound insensitive - or was that a preemptive worry before you wrote the comment and you ended up not needing it? Either way, didn't feel insensitive at all.
Worth noting that Fry is definitely aware of what Hitler did to gays, but what he did to Jews is higher profile, most known and most understood, so making that comparison is the easiest one in a letter like this.
(Russian here) - Fry is 100% correct in his assessment. I pay a lot of attention to the wickedness of Russian politics, and, quite frankly, LBGTQ are right there at the very edge of Russian political struggle, being one of the very few groups whose very survival demands liberty (others may get by through kowtowing to the political powers, but they don't have that option). They are hated by an overwhelming majority of Russians in the province (same majority that keeps voting Putin into power), because of all the fear, lies and propaganda spread by the state. These Games must be stopped, indeed.
Thanks for your inside assessment. You said the same majority votes Putin into power...do you have anything you could cite for this, or is it your observation?
I can't believe no one is talking about how this all relates to revelations from the US state department cable leaks. The cables showed that the US State Department is actively involved in advancing anti-traditionalist groups in many countries. One of the cables went on quite a bit about how greater efforts are needed in France to promote multiculturalism and homosexual acceptance because so much of the nation remains traditionalist.
To a certain degree here Putin is in fact combating a propaganda arm of the US government that operates in his country. Remember Pussy Riot and the bizarre media reactions to their stunt? That shit was obviously western orchestrated when you looked at the reactions and the people involved.
I can think of no surer way to impair the cause of tolerance social acceptance than the stuff the USG is doing. Of course it's going to provoke a backlash.
I know some people in Russia and recently in a discussion they brought out "gays" as people "they really don't like" - even if the discussion had absolutely nothing to do with gays. There could be some real merit to this warning.
There probably is merit to the warning, but the word "scapegoat" may be wrong. It means that your blaming the nation's problems on them. I haven't yet seen Putin blaming gays for economic hardships or crime. Misuse of overly strong words discredits the article.
A recent comment was 'best-of'ed on reddit and has some insight into why things are the way they are. It's worth reading the comment and the first reply.
> An absolute ban on the Russian Winter Olympics of 2014 on Sochi is simply essential.
Wow, I couldn't disagree more on this point. One of the great things about the Olympics is that it's without politics [er... in this regard].
I don't believe that it's acceptable to say that places with different cultural values make unsuitable hosts. Human rights criticisms were also levelled at London, and even more at Beijing. In general, the Olympics (indirectly) does a lot to raise awareness of human rights and it's good that it is able to do this by spanning the breadth of the world's culture.
Hosting the Olympics in Sochi will allow individuals' achievements to be celebrated within Russia without the permission of politicians and without the stigma of prejudice.
I hope instead that gay participants will be encouraged to come out and raise awareness in the relative safety of the occasion: since Godwin's law has already been invoked, I would compare the situation to Jesse Owens at the Berlin Olympics.
"The idea that sport and politics don’t connect is worse than disingenuous, worse than stupid. It is wickedly, wilfully wrong. Everyone knows politics interconnects with everything for “politics” is simply the Greek for “to do with the people”.
Fortunately, Nazi Germany didn't arrest Jesse Owens upon arrival to the country. Russia has made it clear that they will not afford the same freedom to gays and lesbians, or more to the point they plan on arresting them immediately upon arrival.
There's an old joke from Communist times. It goes like this -- and old communist argues:
- What do you mean, we don't respect human rights? Of course we respect human rights! Why, I can provide the name of that human right now!
Same goes for 'celebrating human achievements' you've mentioned. No such thing will happen. There's only one achievement allowed into the celebration - the achievement of United Russia Party and its leader. Whatever the emotional positive externalities these Game might produce, all will be harvested by state propaganda.
Instead of boycotting, I would advocate for subversion. The Games have been a platform for highlighting social issues before: get on that platform and show that gay and lesbians can be winners too and that other athletes support their plight.
At any rate, it's going to be interesting to watch.
China doesn't have civil rights laws to protect homosexuals, but it has made it explicitly legal (1997), and removed it from lists of "mental illnesses" (2001)[1].
I'm aware it isn't a democracy, but it doesn't appear to sanction official discrimination in the same way as Russia on this issue. If you look at the rest of [1], you'll see it also has a long history of (debatable) tolerance for homosexuality.
(I am aware that is has a significantly different attitude to race than the UK and US, and I'm not sure I'm happy with it, but again I haven't heard of examples of official persecution, or police turning blind eyes to attacks on such minority groups.)
There is quite a leap from Russian anti gay propaganda laws to boycotting the Olympics. Many people would argue that laws supporting any kind of torture or the death penalty are human rights abuses so should any and all countries practicing those laws be forbidden from partaking in or hosting something so arbitrary as the Olympics?
I'm not arguing that this wouldn't be an effective way to get the Russian government to go back on some of the recent legislation, but then why stop there? Can we use this tactic to stop drone attacks, decriminalize marijuana and improve women's rights in many countries?
No we can't. Because this isn't a genuine movement designed to change Russian public opinion and laws, but a simple us=enlightened you=backwards monsters campaign.
As far as I've seen, nobody in those countries has publicly threatened Olympic athletes with torture or the death penalty, simply for the crime of existing.
Haven't read the article yet, but this might be the first time I've found a comparison to Hitler helpful. I'm religious (Christian) and related to some very homophobic people - comparing gay people to Jews actually seems like a perfect way to convey "See these people who believe and live differently than we do? They're still good, sincere people, and you just don't make their lifestyle illegal when it's not hurting you".
Invoking Godwin's law is a bit easy. Not every reference to Hitler deserves to be struck down by it.
What is happening in Russia is truly frightening and not necessarily that different in many respects to what happened in the 1930s: blame society's woes onto a minority that is slowly being deprived of its rights.
For the first time in my life, I disagree that Godwin Law's could be applied in this case.
It is truly a sad day and and it really shows the incredibly wrong state of affairs in Russia when comparisons to Hitler are actually justified. In this case the parallels with the situation an the state of affairs in pre-war Germany cannot be denied. It shows the same willingness to create two classes of citizen, and the withdrawal of the rights of that second-class.
I think some people become very indignant about this issue only because it's Russia. I don't see that much indignation at other nations that treat non heterosexual people worst. Other nations whose treatment of women and religious minorities can't not but be called barbarous. Some of whom are close allies of the USA. I personally see no problem with how other nations manage their internal affairs, as long as they keep to themselves.
"Other countries do it too!" is a common derailing tactic, and it's not worth very much consideration.
I will note, however, that Russia is hosting the 2014 Winter Olympics. Traditionally, hosting the Olympics has been a pretty good catalyst for getting the world to bring your country under a bit of scrutiny. If the Olympics were being held in Dubai, then the only reason we wouldn't be hearing about how they treat gays would be all of the screaming the plethora of other social issues plaguing the UAE.
As for:
>I personally see no problem with how other nations manage their internal affairs, as long as they keep to themselves.
If your neighbor were murdering women in his basement, would you say "Well, that's just his business really. I should keep to myself and not bother him"?
Fry is overreacting.
LGBT people surely aren't particularly welcome in Russia, but that isn't because of the laws, and has more something to do with absence of any form of tolerance or education training about gays.
It's definitely cultural as well as a legal issue, but that doesn't change the fact that there are genuine homophobic laws as well. As to overreacting... I guess that's subjective, but I couldn't disagree more.
[+] [-] dylangs1030|12 years ago|reply
More importantly, because this article doesn't really cite much except for Stephen Fry's word, I'd like to here highlight that it's very much factual and well-documented, so as to remove doubt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia
I direct your attention particularly to the treatment of those who speak out against the anti-Gay laws, usually resulting in imprisonment. Moreover, the last poll put public support for Gay rights incredibly low - 74% stated they believe homosexuality should be banned and "rejected" from society.
EDIT: Upon re-reading the article, I think it would also prudent to point out there's no mention of strong nationalism playing into this. While the issue of LGBT rights in Russia is obviously well-documented and a persistent problem, I think it might be a mischaracterization to claim they are being "blamed" for the nation's problems in the same way Hitler used the Jews as a scapegoat. Putin is a very well-established and popular leader if I recall correctly, so I also don't see why he'd need such a polarizing campaign.
[+] [-] guard-of-terra|12 years ago|reply
He got 52% where I live, it's good for an American president but like a failure for a Popular Dictator.
And polarizing is what he does every day since fall 2011. He's no longer the president of all russians, he's a president of all russians minus a long and detailed list of people he accuses of various wrongdoings or wrongthinkings.
[+] [-] corin_|12 years ago|reply
Worth noting that Fry is definitely aware of what Hitler did to gays, but what he did to Jews is higher profile, most known and most understood, so making that comparison is the easiest one in a letter like this.
[+] [-] mones|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alexakarpov|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dylangs1030|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] a8da6b0c91d|12 years ago|reply
To a certain degree here Putin is in fact combating a propaganda arm of the US government that operates in his country. Remember Pussy Riot and the bizarre media reactions to their stunt? That shit was obviously western orchestrated when you looked at the reactions and the people involved.
I can think of no surer way to impair the cause of tolerance social acceptance than the stuff the USG is doing. Of course it's going to provoke a backlash.
[+] [-] danmaz74|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tkellogg|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JohnTHaller|12 years ago|reply
http://www.reddit.com/r/russia/comments/1jpagi/whats_up_with...
[+] [-] ronaldx|12 years ago|reply
Wow, I couldn't disagree more on this point. One of the great things about the Olympics is that it's without politics [er... in this regard].
I don't believe that it's acceptable to say that places with different cultural values make unsuitable hosts. Human rights criticisms were also levelled at London, and even more at Beijing. In general, the Olympics (indirectly) does a lot to raise awareness of human rights and it's good that it is able to do this by spanning the breadth of the world's culture.
Hosting the Olympics in Sochi will allow individuals' achievements to be celebrated within Russia without the permission of politicians and without the stigma of prejudice.
I hope instead that gay participants will be encouraged to come out and raise awareness in the relative safety of the occasion: since Godwin's law has already been invoked, I would compare the situation to Jesse Owens at the Berlin Olympics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Owens#Berlin_Olympics
[+] [-] alexakarpov|12 years ago|reply
"The idea that sport and politics don’t connect is worse than disingenuous, worse than stupid. It is wickedly, wilfully wrong. Everyone knows politics interconnects with everything for “politics” is simply the Greek for “to do with the people”.
[+] [-] ihsw|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alexakarpov|12 years ago|reply
- What do you mean, we don't respect human rights? Of course we respect human rights! Why, I can provide the name of that human right now!
Same goes for 'celebrating human achievements' you've mentioned. No such thing will happen. There's only one achievement allowed into the celebration - the achievement of United Russia Party and its leader. Whatever the emotional positive externalities these Game might produce, all will be harvested by state propaganda.
[+] [-] spindritf|12 years ago|reply
What's next? A "what you're listening to right now" thread? "Post your pic"?
[+] [-] itsallbs|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Renaud|12 years ago|reply
At any rate, it's going to be interesting to watch.
[+] [-] jmngomes|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] davidjgraph|12 years ago|reply
I'm not sure "subversion" is the right word there.
[+] [-] comrh|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GotAnyMegadeth|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] narrator|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] corin_|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] runn1ng|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tehwalrus|12 years ago|reply
I'm aware it isn't a democracy, but it doesn't appear to sanction official discrimination in the same way as Russia on this issue. If you look at the rest of [1], you'll see it also has a long history of (debatable) tolerance for homosexuality.
(I am aware that is has a significantly different attitude to race than the UK and US, and I'm not sure I'm happy with it, but again I haven't heard of examples of official persecution, or police turning blind eyes to attacks on such minority groups.)
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China#People.2...
[+] [-] GotAnyMegadeth|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PLenz|12 years ago|reply
Actually Hitler didn't like _alot_ of people.
[+] [-] prawn|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mladenkovacevic|12 years ago|reply
I'm not arguing that this wouldn't be an effective way to get the Russian government to go back on some of the recent legislation, but then why stop there? Can we use this tactic to stop drone attacks, decriminalize marijuana and improve women's rights in many countries?
No we can't. Because this isn't a genuine movement designed to change Russian public opinion and laws, but a simple us=enlightened you=backwards monsters campaign.
[+] [-] seandougall|12 years ago|reply
I'm open to counterexamples, if I'm wrong.
[+] [-] TallGuyShort|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] harrytuttle|12 years ago|reply
More seriously, this is standard practice: label the enemy, even if it's wrong or you created the label yourself.
[+] [-] Renaud|12 years ago|reply
What is happening in Russia is truly frightening and not necessarily that different in many respects to what happened in the 1930s: blame society's woes onto a minority that is slowly being deprived of its rights.
[+] [-] neurotixz|12 years ago|reply
It is truly a sad day and and it really shows the incredibly wrong state of affairs in Russia when comparisons to Hitler are actually justified. In this case the parallels with the situation an the state of affairs in pre-war Germany cannot be denied. It shows the same willingness to create two classes of citizen, and the withdrawal of the rights of that second-class.
[+] [-] seandougall|12 years ago|reply
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of an invocation of Godwin's Law approaches 1.
[+] [-] guard-of-terra|12 years ago|reply
(Hitler's Germans had at least meet Jews in their life)
It's a sad story about how media wrecks the minds of rednecks.
[+] [-] desireco42|12 years ago|reply
Stephen Fry is completely wrong, but again, not a thing we should discuss here.
@pgraham can you focus us back to our lovely, go against ruby against php and clisp rules them all.
[+] [-] jorgecastillo|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mistercow|12 years ago|reply
I will note, however, that Russia is hosting the 2014 Winter Olympics. Traditionally, hosting the Olympics has been a pretty good catalyst for getting the world to bring your country under a bit of scrutiny. If the Olympics were being held in Dubai, then the only reason we wouldn't be hearing about how they treat gays would be all of the screaming the plethora of other social issues plaguing the UAE.
As for:
>I personally see no problem with how other nations manage their internal affairs, as long as they keep to themselves.
If your neighbor were murdering women in his basement, would you say "Well, that's just his business really. I should keep to myself and not bother him"?
[+] [-] GotAnyMegadeth|12 years ago|reply
Really?
[+] [-] boomie|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] corin_|12 years ago|reply