[jgross206]

The difference, to me, is that the lack of freedom you describe is simply a part of the human condition (food and shelter require work, which has been true as long as life has existed) as opposed to what you call "traditional slavery" which is man-made.

[enraged_camel]

>>"traditional slavery" which is man-made.

So is capitalism. So is the corporate hierarchy. Heck, the society we live in right now is man-made. Why does that matter as an evaluation criteria?

Yes, food and shelter have always required work. The difference is that they have required work by the person for the person. Or by the person for their family. Or by the person for their tribe. This meant that you worked only as much was actually needed - i.e. subsistence - and no more.

That is a very different set up than what we have now. The cost of healthcare alone makes subsistence living impossible.

[enoch_r]

> The cost of healthcare alone makes subsistence living impossible.

What? It's perfectly possible to receive "subsistence healthcare" in today's society--just never go to the doctor or take any medicine. If you want to splurge, do some research online, and you'll gain knowledge leagues ahead of "subsistence" medicine.

[hyperplane]

> The cost of healthcare alone makes subsistence living impossible.

No. Subsistence living is entirely possible - there are millions of people doing just that somewhere in backwoods wherever, across a multitude of political systems and states, all over the world.

What you want as "subsistence living" is not its definition. What you're talking about is "how much labor cost it requires to maintain your current lifestyle in this current political system".

EDIT: I was late on this reply I guess.

[coryrc]

> The cost of healthcare alone makes subsistence living impossible.

You don't seem to understand what subsistence living means.

[sliverstorm]

This meant that you worked only as much was actually needed - i.e. subsistence - and no more.

You do know that in agrarian societies this meant 12 hours a day 7 days a week with no holidays ever? And that children worked in the fields instead of going to school?

People don't subsistence farm because they don't want anything more than the bare minimum for survival. They subsistence farm because the bare minimum for survival is the best they can manage.

[ojbyrne]

"The cost of healthcare alone makes subsistence living impossible" is US-centric. In large swathes of the world that is not in any way true.

[jessaustin]

I guess we should expect everyone to jump on that last sentence. Whatever, I don't consider inapt idiom to destroy this position. Perhaps we should say that subsistence living is impossible when one's peers drive new cars, carry new computing equipment, and pay for their health care with insurance.

[LekkoscPiwa]

Capitalism is as man made as theory of evolution. It's been discovered. Or it's just the way the societies always worked. Most efficient. Capitalism as an ideology is just noting the fact. Not inventing, just realization of how brutally nature is and how brutally it works. Socialism is invention from the realization that capitalism is morally bad. It's exactly like vegetarians agenda: killing animals is morally wrong. Yeah, but you know what we still need to eat. It's the same way with socialism: exploiting people is morally bad. Yeah, but you know the work still needs to be done.