I don't understand what the obsession is with the old IBM Model M type keyboards. I am able to type faster and more accurately on my Apple flat aluminum keyboard that I have ever been able to type on a Model M. On top of that, switching to a flatter keyboard that sits closer to the desk has actually caused any and all pain I used to get while typing to go away.
The other thing is I'd miss the extra function keys I get on my full size Apple keyboard. Specifically F13-F19, which I have bound to a whole bunch of different things that help me throughout my day.
I got a das keyboard at home and at work. Its awesome, and I'd recommend a mechanical to anyone who works on a keyboard for a living. I would never buy anything like this from Atwood, though. His 'expertise' in software, personal attacks on other developers and tedious self-promotion don't really convince me that he's got the know-how to get into hardware production, but rather that he's found a way to make money off his sycophantic fan-base of mediocre programmers who take his word as gospel.
> rather that he's found a way to make money off his sycophantic fan-base of mediocre programmers who take his word as gospel.
From all I know, he was making a decent living from his blog alone before he started StackOverflow. And let's just assume for a moment that SO made him a bit more. Alledging he's doing this for the money is... surprising. Being needlessly offensive doesn't really help your point either.
> His 'expertise' in software, personal attacks on other developers and tedious self-promotion...
> convince me that he's got the know-how to get into hardware production
Please, make claims based on things that are related topics.
If you were convinced that he was great at software, attacked nobody and never promoted himself, would you then be justified with evidence that he could get into hardware? Of course not.
I agree with you that this moves are money-motivated, which makes sense as I see him as a businessman first and foremost, but what you've said detracts from that point.
I too have a das keyboard. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone. I just got mine less than a year ago. One of the keys started getting sticky and would not jump back after a key press (the command key.) They haven't answered my email asking for any solution to this.
I saw similar complaints from other recent customers. It seems as though they have shifted production to a new Chinese facility which is causing more of these problems.
It works great, but breaks down quick. If you are in the middle of a coding project or something big, nothing can be more annoying: an awesome keyboard suddenly dying on you and absent customer service.
I imagine most big name guitarists don't have much expertise in building guitars, but that doesn't stop manufacturers making custom signature models. The end result is usually a pretty impressive piece of hardware that's tailored to the way the artist plays. The manufacturers gets the PR of having the guitarists attached to their brand, and the guitarist gets their dream guitar. I'm pretty sure the same thing is going on here.
I briefly owned a das keyboard: loved the touch response of it, but the wacky USB hubs they had built into it caused me no end of trouble on some more niche operating systems due to some non-standard implementation choices.
Also, I hated the high-gloss easily marred plastic on it.
I returned it shortly after purchase and said "never again".
Yeah, I have 2 DAS keyboards as well. Got em a few years back and they are so much better to type on. Mine have no letters on the keys so people that can't type don't just come to my desk and "Hop on my machine"
I really can't think of anything good to say about this keyboard. I've used keyboards like this, and I've damaged my body with them. You know what matters a lot more than a backlight? Ergonomic design. Get a Kinesis Advantage instead.
As someone who has suffered from RSI, my advice is to not fix a problem you don't have. I've been there, and it just cost me money.
In my case, I didn't need a curved keyboard or a split keyboard, those things ended up in the cupboard. I just had to get rid of the numpad to change my position from awkward to healthy. So, for me, this keyboard is actually interesting, the variant without the numpad that is.
Is there actually any evidence ergonomic keyboards reduce risk of RSI? Last time I looked into it it seemed like marketing fluff with no actual studies that backed it up.
I used a Kinesis Advantage for many months as my only keyboard, but did not recover from RSI until I got rid of it.
Now I use Logitech scissor-switch keyboards (the K750 and the K800). Oddly enough, even though it has the same basic scissor-switch design as the Logitech keyboards, I do very poorly with Apple keyboards (and I did use one exclusively for a few months).
I guess there's no single solution to RSI that works for every typist!
P.S. What really got me over my RSI is learning piano teacher Dorothy Taubman's technique for prevention of RSI.
Buy if for the Ergonomics, keep it for the thumb modifier keys. I can't go back to a normal keyboard now. Having the modifier keys under your thumbs is just to damn nice.
I've been using a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic keyboard for a long time and it's relieved a lot of wrist pains I used to have. I'm a little tentative to switch to something without a palm rest and without being able to position my hands farther apart.
This looks pretty good, though. I've been looking for a new mechanical keyboard for a while but haven't found anything that quite fits yet. Would love to hear some reviews once this gets out there.
I'm the opposite. I used to use ergonomic keyboards, including a Kinesis keyboard many years ago. It never solved my RSI pain.
What did solve my RSI pain was simple: posture. The height of my desk/chair/keyboard/mouse/monitor were not in proper alignment. Once I properly adjusted all heights the pain went away in weeks. I also got a tenkeyless (Filco Majestouch 2) mechanical keyboard, which helped for its form factor.
I love ergonomic keyboards too, but they're extremely specialized. A mass market keyboard needs to appeal to as many folks as possible, and using the "classic" standard keyboard layout is the best way to do that.
There is a tenkeyless option if that helps, and there is room at the front for a wrist rest that can be periodically replaced as it wears.
I've been using split keyboards for many years and my wrists have thanked me for it. I get weird looks and people have a hard time using them, but it's worth it.
...or a Goldtouch Adjustable Comfort keyboard for a slightly less eccentric layout. Even a Microsoft Comfort Curve keyboard will treat you better than the world's greatest straight keyboard.
My wrists seem ok, but my finger joints felt like they were developing arthritis, which is a common malady for typists. I bought a couple Leopolds (one with red switches, one brown), learned to type without bottoming out much, and it cleared right up.
I tried it and it didn't work for me. Hand size was wrong and the placement of the modifier keys was unintuitive. With my day-to-day usage, I couldn't come up with a mapping that fit my needs.
I have trouble typing on an ergonomic keyboard, otherwise I'd probably use it.
Incidentally, after years of proper piano training I feel like I hold my wrists in such a way that if I mostly keep typing, I won't strain my wrists too hard...and be able to type constantly all day. I only get pain in the wrists when using a Trackpad, surprisingly enough.
I don't want to take anything away from Jeff, good for him for realizing his dream. But claiming that this is the best keyboard for programmers is an overstatement if I ever heard one.
Yes, it's mechanical, yes it has backlit keys and you can do some customizations. But where is everything else? Why are the keys still in the zig-zag formation? Why is the enter key so small? Why is the enter key on the right, where I have to use my pinky to hit it? Ever heard about ergonomics? Can I get one with DVORAK layout printed on? And so on and so forth.
If you want to create the best keyboard for programmers then create one that won't kill our wrists and hands.
I'd be interested in this if it didn't have a numpad, or maybe a detachable numpad.
I guess everyone has their individual RSI issues, but after experimenting with various devices, I noticed that mine were caused _exclusively_ by that silly old numpad thing I never use anyway. It forced me to place either the keyboard too far to the left or the mouse too far to the right, causing strain in either my left or right hand over time.
I really don't see what use a programmer (or any touch typist) might have for the numpad. I really don't see why they put one on this keyboard.
Other than for very specific ergonomic uses, I honestly don't understand the appeal of a heavy mechanical keyboard; the old IBM buckling-spring Model M keyboard doesn't appeal to me at all. Personally, I do all my work on a ThinkPad keyboard, and I actually have a USB ThinkPad keyboard/mouse for use with non-laptop systems or docking stations. I like the short throw of the keys, I like keys close together (as long as my fingers have room to type, which they do on anything >11" or so), and I like having a mouse on home row.
This is a very overpriced mechanical keyboard. The backlighting is silly and useless. Check out http://elitekeyboards.com/ instead. The Leopold keyboards are very fairly priced. The Rosewill mechanical keyboards from NewEgg are pretty alright, too. Filcos are on the higher end of the price spectrum but are a better value than the "CODE".
Having looked over a lot of mechanical keyboards recently, it's fairly uncommon to find both mechanical action and backlighting in a single keyboard. I think some of the 'gamer' class ones have them, and that's about it.
I had RSI. Got over it, but still found mechanical keyboards uncomfortable.
For some reason, I find the MacBook air 13 inch keyboard to be the most comfortable I've ever used.
I don't know why. Part of it may be the low height from the ground, and part is the great trackpad. (I tried the magic mouse and hurt my arm)
I expect other people have different opinions of the air's keyboard. The point is that I don't think there is any one keyboard that works best for everyone.
WASD Keyboards (well, Weyman) has given me some of the best customer support over the past few years. They even recently fixed my busted Caps Lock key (my own fault) outside of warranty for just $10. I broke my space bar in-warranty, and it was fixed for free. I wanted some custom settings/layouts the keyboard designer couldn't handle, and they obliged. My WASD has lasted for several years now (including a few minor repairs) and I've had nothing but good experiences with them. I've been waiting for their v2 keyboards (they've been "coming soon" for months) and I'm excited to see they finally launched!
While I can understand the appeal of mechanical keyboards (at least appeal for you but hatred from your coworkers), I really don't understand why any programmer today is still using a non-ergonomic keyboard. These straight keyboards will kill your wrists, forehands and tendons eventually.
If you intend to be typing on a keyboard for more than the next five years and you're still using a straight keyboard, do yourself a favor and buy a split keyboard today.
Pains from Carpal Tunnel Syndrome will most likely follow you for the rest of your life, just not worth it.
I wonder what was the real price of making this keyboard, probably not more than $10. I mean China.
This is getting ridiculous. It's not because there is now HN, reddit and everything that can feed a hipster that you should fall into this trap and buy a €149.99 a keyboard.
Can anyone who has used the Cherry MX clears comment on them as compared to blues or browns? I've found that I dislike blues, and loathe reds. Browns are hands down my favorite, and the key switch I use both at home and at the office.
I do understand being frustrated in the search for a high quality mechanical backlit keyboard, as there are shockingly few contenders out there. I'm currently using a Max nighthawk (green backlit with brown key switches), and enjoying it. However, the Ducky Shine II was very close to the top of my list.
Mechanical keyboards are awesome and after a year+ typing on them I can't stand typing on regular rubber domes. My favorite switch is the MX Brown, as the Blues got annoying to me. My current keyboard, which I think is a better coder's board, is the tex beetle ( http://i.imgur.com/ivEH2Av.png ). If you want to go down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole I recommend checking out http://www.reddit.com/r/mechanicalkeyboards
"I'm just happy to live in a world where the first truly great mechanical keyboard finally exists now." That's subjective. To me this keyboard is average and over priced. I personally hate that keyboard layout, so for me, this isn't the first truly great keyboard.
Why are we continuing to use staggered layouts on keyboards? It is clearly inefficient, and not difficult to switch to a matrix (ie. grid based) layout, since all of the keys are close to where they were before.
Second question - in this day and age of easy connectors, why are numpads attached to the side of keyboards? What do left handed people do? Or people who don't use the numpad? Why not have the numpad detachable? Same goes for the arrow keys.
I'm still waiting to buy a mechanical keyboard with a TrackPoint. Until then, the ThinkPad external USB keyboard [1] is perfect. Its big delete key is great, too.
I've got two old Model M 13s with trackpoints. Unfortunately, the buttons on one of them are failing. I never realized how much I used the trackpoints till they didn't work.
[+] [-] X-Istence|12 years ago|reply
The other thing is I'd miss the extra function keys I get on my full size Apple keyboard. Specifically F13-F19, which I have bound to a whole bunch of different things that help me throughout my day.
[+] [-] scrame|12 years ago|reply
(remember Arringtons tablet, anyone?)
[+] [-] fhd2|12 years ago|reply
From all I know, he was making a decent living from his blog alone before he started StackOverflow. And let's just assume for a moment that SO made him a bit more. Alledging he's doing this for the money is... surprising. Being needlessly offensive doesn't really help your point either.
[+] [-] tcdowney|12 years ago|reply
I'm sure it will be a good keyboard (especially for enthusiasts looking to try out some Cherry MX clears).
[+] [-] bdg|12 years ago|reply
> convince me that he's got the know-how to get into hardware production
Please, make claims based on things that are related topics.
If you were convinced that he was great at software, attacked nobody and never promoted himself, would you then be justified with evidence that he could get into hardware? Of course not.
I agree with you that this moves are money-motivated, which makes sense as I see him as a businessman first and foremost, but what you've said detracts from that point.
[+] [-] cscurmudgeon|12 years ago|reply
I saw similar complaints from other recent customers. It seems as though they have shifted production to a new Chinese facility which is causing more of these problems.
It works great, but breaks down quick. If you are in the middle of a coding project or something big, nothing can be more annoying: an awesome keyboard suddenly dying on you and absent customer service.
[+] [-] andrewingram|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] binarycrusader|12 years ago|reply
Also, I hated the high-gloss easily marred plastic on it.
I returned it shortly after purchase and said "never again".
[+] [-] joeblau|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chrismonsanto|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fhd2|12 years ago|reply
In my case, I didn't need a curved keyboard or a split keyboard, those things ended up in the cupboard. I just had to get rid of the numpad to change my position from awkward to healthy. So, for me, this keyboard is actually interesting, the variant without the numpad that is.
[+] [-] rbanffy|12 years ago|reply
If you are into straight keyboards, http://pckeyboard.com/page/PC122/UB40B5A
[+] [-] stormbrew|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hollerith|12 years ago|reply
Now I use Logitech scissor-switch keyboards (the K750 and the K800). Oddly enough, even though it has the same basic scissor-switch design as the Logitech keyboards, I do very poorly with Apple keyboards (and I did use one exclusively for a few months).
I guess there's no single solution to RSI that works for every typist!
P.S. What really got me over my RSI is learning piano teacher Dorothy Taubman's technique for prevention of RSI.
[+] [-] eikenberry|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] artgon|12 years ago|reply
This looks pretty good, though. I've been looking for a new mechanical keyboard for a while but haven't found anything that quite fits yet. Would love to hear some reviews once this gets out there.
[+] [-] Miyamoto|12 years ago|reply
What did solve my RSI pain was simple: posture. The height of my desk/chair/keyboard/mouse/monitor were not in proper alignment. Once I properly adjusted all heights the pain went away in weeks. I also got a tenkeyless (Filco Majestouch 2) mechanical keyboard, which helped for its form factor.
[+] [-] codinghorror|12 years ago|reply
There is a tenkeyless option if that helps, and there is room at the front for a wrist rest that can be periodically replaced as it wears.
[+] [-] tiziano88|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmastrac|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mindless2112|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jseliger|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] w1ntermute|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DennisP|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] banachtarski|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tomphoolery|12 years ago|reply
Incidentally, after years of proper piano training I feel like I hold my wrists in such a way that if I mostly keep typing, I won't strain my wrists too hard...and be able to type constantly all day. I only get pain in the wrists when using a Trackpad, surprisingly enough.
[+] [-] frewsxcv|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CWIZO|12 years ago|reply
Yes, it's mechanical, yes it has backlit keys and you can do some customizations. But where is everything else? Why are the keys still in the zig-zag formation? Why is the enter key so small? Why is the enter key on the right, where I have to use my pinky to hit it? Ever heard about ergonomics? Can I get one with DVORAK layout printed on? And so on and so forth.
If you want to create the best keyboard for programmers then create one that won't kill our wrists and hands.
[+] [-] fhd2|12 years ago|reply
I'd be interested in this if it didn't have a numpad, or maybe a detachable numpad.
I guess everyone has their individual RSI issues, but after experimenting with various devices, I noticed that mine were caused _exclusively_ by that silly old numpad thing I never use anyway. It forced me to place either the keyboard too far to the left or the mouse too far to the right, causing strain in either my left or right hand over time.
I really don't see what use a programmer (or any touch typist) might have for the numpad. I really don't see why they put one on this keyboard.
[+] [-] JoshTriplett|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] davexunit|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] frewsxcv|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dsuth|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shanselman|12 years ago|reply
I have 4 Microsoft Ergo 7000s in case they ever stop making them.
[+] [-] cwbrandsma|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AsymetricCom|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drivebyacct2|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] anotherevan|12 years ago|reply
http://www.combimouse.com/index.htm
Current Indigogo campaign: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/combimouse-combination-key...
(Disclaimer: I'm not involved with this project aside from contributing to a previous campaign.)
[+] [-] graeme|12 years ago|reply
For some reason, I find the MacBook air 13 inch keyboard to be the most comfortable I've ever used.
I don't know why. Part of it may be the low height from the ground, and part is the great trackpad. (I tried the magic mouse and hurt my arm)
I expect other people have different opinions of the air's keyboard. The point is that I don't think there is any one keyboard that works best for everyone.
[+] [-] madsushi|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] laureny|12 years ago|reply
If you intend to be typing on a keyboard for more than the next five years and you're still using a straight keyboard, do yourself a favor and buy a split keyboard today.
Pains from Carpal Tunnel Syndrome will most likely follow you for the rest of your life, just not worth it.
[+] [-] theboywho|12 years ago|reply
This is getting ridiculous. It's not because there is now HN, reddit and everything that can feed a hipster that you should fall into this trap and buy a €149.99 a keyboard.
[+] [-] doktrin|12 years ago|reply
I do understand being frustrated in the search for a high quality mechanical backlit keyboard, as there are shockingly few contenders out there. I'm currently using a Max nighthawk (green backlit with brown key switches), and enjoying it. However, the Ducky Shine II was very close to the top of my list.
[+] [-] sharplusplus|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] taternuts|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 0X1A|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mdkess|12 years ago|reply
Second question - in this day and age of easy connectors, why are numpads attached to the side of keyboards? What do left handed people do? Or people who don't use the numpad? Why not have the numpad detachable? Same goes for the arrow keys.
[+] [-] pkamb|12 years ago|reply
[1] http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/55Y9003/460/60AC6A0...
[+] [-] wiredfool|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pekru|12 years ago|reply
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPo...
$59 and truly functional