We need H1-B visas because there is a shortage of computer programmers living in the United States who will work for $64,000 a year when the average salary of all programmers is $94,000 [1]. That narrative gets lost though.
Keep in mind that "Computer Programmers" means a very specific thing to the Department of Labor and only captures the low end of the developer market: http://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/15-1131.00
There are half a dozen other job categorization that could also be computer programmers, such as:
• Software Developers, Applications
• Software Developers, Systems Software
• Web Developers
• Software Quality Assurance Engineers and Testers
• Network and Computer Systems Administrator
• Computer Systems Analysts
• Computer Operators
• Database Administrators
The wages are much higher for other job titles. (eg. $88,589 for "Software Developers, Applications")
Also, note that the figure you quote is for the SF Bay Area, while the H-1B figure is an average for the country. Big difference.
That is over generalizing though. Computer Programmer is a term widely applied to everyone ranging from higher end Systems Programmers and embedded programmers to lower end Web Programmers. Then there is also the living costs - you couldn't make a decent living in SF for $63916 but in Detroit suburbs that might be decent wage.
The reality of it is that there is a need for "program assemblers" - people that can read up the APIs/programmer guides and cook up a working app OR maintain such an app. The need for such people is significant and it isn't always in sunny SFO - often times it is at a place where not many would relocate to.
That's why you need H1-Bs at the lower end of the market with lower salaries- it works because no one else who is already in the US with student debts and location preference is willing and for the guys coming from EU/India/China - it is a great start and an opportunity to try and get permanent residence to get up the chain.
$63k is also $20k below the minimum required pay for an overtime exempt employee in CA http://www.shrm.org/templatestools/hrqa/pages/california-min.... There are exceptions to that of course, but I would wager there is more than one H1B (and more than a few non-visa employees) getting hosed.
You can't compare San Francisco salaries to a national average. National median salary for a Client/Server Programmer II is $67,776 [1]. I chose that specific title because it covers programmers working in the kind of DB-backed work that enterprise consulting firms do, with 2-4 years' experience and a bachelors' degree, which is probably pretty representative of the H1-B Computer Programmer. As others have pointed out, more senior H1-B programmers are not going to be in this DoL 'Computer Programmer' bucket.
Keep in mind, to a great majority of voters, $64,000 is an enormous salary. When told "We cannot find high-tech talent, even after offering $64,000" most voters (who make much less) will agree with the statement, "We need to look outside our borders for high-tech talent".
Well, you would expect the H1-B salaries to be below the average since most programmers on an H1-B are relatively early in their careers.
I've hired a number of software engineers, both citizens and those needing H1-B sponsorship and a visa was never viewed as a significant factor in the offer amount nor was it viewed as an opportunity to get someone on the cheap.
If you are getting labour at a cheaper cost, then there is high probability of getting not skilled people on board and thereby IMO creating a group of void professionals. This void is due to the increase in the demand for labour but since companies want to increase their revenues they rely on cheap labour at a small price to them. But on a longer run I think this void from multiple companies will act detrimental to the economy due to the inability of this group to look for alternative jobs when there is a state of economic slowdown.
The article says that the biggest employers are "consulting companies" it would be more correct to say they are off-shoring companies. The disconnect between the rhetoric about H1B and the reality is staggering.
I also want to point out that despite the occasional anecdote of H1B visa holders being paid equal to, or even better than, their US citizen counterparts there is exactly zero budget for enforcement of this requirement. Even then, there are classification tricks to work around the occasional cursory check-up.
That latter article says "It’s a non-immigrant visa and so has nothing at all to do with staying in the USA, becoming a citizen, or starting a business." which is incorrect. It's a dual intent visa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent). I didn't really read past that.
The biggest thing to know about these data from the US Department of Labor (DOL) is that they DO NOT reflect visas granted. They reflect Labor Condition Applications (LCAs) granted. denied, etc. This is only one part of the application for a visa, and every year the DOL certifies far more LCAs than there are available visas.
It is impossible to tell from the LCA data what companies actually followed through with the rest of the process and fees and were able to sponsor a foreign worker before the visa cap was hit each year. That information would come from US Citizenship and Immigration Service, and as far as I can find they do not release that information.
So I've been in the US on a H1B visa for more than 3 years now, and I believe some of the comments in here are misleaded.
First myth: H1B get lower salaries. For knowing a decent number of people with H1B, me included, I can say that's not the case. All of the people with H1B I know are paid more than 100k/year (some WAY more than that) at full-time positions with good health care and, for the people who work in startups, decent equity.
True it may be that the first job you get as an H1B might be paid less, I was at 60k when I started, but on my second job almost doubled my salary, and still got a significant increase in my second change.
Second myth: You cannot change jobs with an H1B. This is completely wrong. I have changed job twice in the past 3 years, and it's really easy. You just need to work with your new employer to get a new form which might take 2 to 3 weeks, but the process is pretty straight-forward, and even startups can do this easily without requiring armies of lawyers.
Of course I can't say that this is true for every single H1B employee out there, but from my experience I haven't seen much difference with US citizens/permanent residents, and would even go so far as saying that the most competent people I've had the chance to work with were on H1B visas.
Some people need to stop and learn before saying that "We need H1-B visas because there is a shortage of computer programmers living in the United States who will work for $64,000 a year when the average salary of all programmers is $94,000"...
> I was at 60k when I started, but on my second job almost doubled my salary, and still got a significant increase in my second change.
This is a clear indication that your skill set is in high demand.
> "We need H1-B visas because there is a shortage of computer programmers living in the United States who will work for $64,000 a year when the average salary of all programmers is $94,000"...
Doesn't your previous comment actually confirm this statement?
You took a HIB job paying a wage that did not accurately reflect your skill level and your ability to move up in wage scale so easily is a clear indication of that fact.
I don't mean to be mean, but this is a pointless piece. There's a number of reasons for such a high rate of acceptance and the piece doesn't really tell much more aside from some salary info.
One reason so many who apply actually get H1-Bs is that there is a cutoff (at which point they don't accept new applicants). This is (for the last few years) about a week after they're actually released (April). Though you can apply before this time, companies usually want you to start asap and so won't apply unless the time frame for application is right.
The threshold for application is also super high (doc requirements, company proof, $$$), thus increasing the likelihood that an application put forward will most likely be accepted. Most immigration lawyers will counsel against putting forward applications they think won't succeed to avoid the having angry clients. It's pretty clear (80-90% certainty) to most immigration lawyers what will and won't work.
Not sure what this study really tells us aside from the fact that it's so hard just to apply for an H1B that if you do, you'll probably get it.
My company is listed as having many H1B's. As a previous holder of a TN visa (NAFTA, yay) we were highly encouraged to get an H1B. Why? because the US border patrol would harass TN holders, and try to trick us into saying the wrong thing so they could take away our work Visas.
Going home to visit family and friends became a real risk that we might lose our jobs. We were told "Do not cross at this crossing on these days of the week" because we'd had so many incidents of one guy who would just arbitrarily take away TN visas.
Most of my friends including myself who are Canadian or Mexican and working in the U.S. got TN visas and never have a problem at the border. Personally I prefer the TN because its been a ridiculously easy visa to acquire in terms of money and time.
Interesting that the 11th largest employer of H-1B workers is the NYC Department of Education, with 5219 H-1Bs.
Also, there's some invalid data in the database: "Brooklyn, NY" is listed as a city, but it's not (it's a borough of NYC). That also means that the numbers for NYC are wrong, since they apparently don't include Brooklyn. This brings into question how reliable the rest of the data is.
The boroughs of NYC are unique in that they are counties, cities, and also part of NYC. Stating Brooklyn or Queens or w/e instead of NYC in the city column is allowed. So the cause is multiple authors of applications, not bad data.
Consulting companies provide the most H-1B Visas. Infosys Limited, Wipro Limited, Cognizant and PriceWaterhouseCoopers take the gold by awarding a combined 67,139 H-1B visas.
What is the relation between the "Applications Submitted" and "Employees Hired"? Given that this is just 2012 data, the there is a hard limit of 65,000 H1-B visas per year, this doesn't make sense to me. The figure in the article is a little misleading, I presume that the figured is over the past x years?
As I commented above these data reflect Labor Condition Applications (LCAs) granted. denied, etc. This is only one part of the application for a visa, and every year the DOL certifies far more LCAs than there are available visas.
To find out what visas were actually issued that information would come from US Citizenship and Immigration Service, and as far as I can find they do not release that information.
there is a hard limit of 65,000 H1-B visas per year,
Not quite - the article actually explains the ways that this limit can be exceeded. That said, I find their numbers pretty odd - 150,000 applications leading to 300,000 approvals? For a post that is showing off their charting/presentation capabilities, it's very poorly presented data.
Why on earth would anyone combine PwC with Infosys and Wipro? Infosys and Wipro represent the lesser expensive labor band while PwC is a true accounting and consulting firm.
Every discussion on H-1B visas always misses the point that it is the only way for a non-US citizen student, graduating from a US university, to work in the US on a long term basis. For a more meaningful analysis, it is important to consider the educational background of the H-1B worker.
What are those consulting companies like Wipro and Infosys actually doing with all those H-1Bs? Comments here refer to them as offshoring companies, but how does offshoring play with bringing more programmers into the US with H-1Bs?
On a side note. Can anyone recommend a good immigration lawyer I can talk to about working in the US?
I'm Canadian, living in Canada, and considering a move back to the US to work. However, I have a somewhat complicated history with US Immigration and I'd like professional advice to figure out my options.
Have you had a good experience with an immigration lawyer (In either the US or Canada)? If so, please post a link to their site (or email me if you prefer: [email protected] )
The number of annual H-1B hires by Wipro and Infosys coupled with the corresponding average salary data reveal the extent of abuse in the current system. Indian developers are imported into the US to essentially provide an in-house alternative to offshoring, with pernicious consequences for the US economy and the high tech labor pool within the US. A small disclaimer- I'm not a bitter ex-developer who lost his job with a large US corporation in the recent past. In fact, I'm an internet dude in San Francisco, personally unaffected by these policies. I'm also convinced that Intel and other cutting edge companies absolutely need access to more brilliant tech minds through the H1-B program.
Let me point out a few obvious and unsettling problems that stem from Infosys and its ilk directly importing developers into the IT offices of US corporations. First and foremost, if the number of programmers in this country is a real issue (see excellent article linked at bottom) and one that you're serious about solving, then the consequences of underpaid H1-B developers is troublesome. When companies can replace US hires with H1-B consultants, not only do US developers become comparatively expensive, but the number of job openings is also reduced, artificially holding down IT salaries. The market's answer to a shortage in supply is higher prices- yet stagnant IT salaries remain an obstacle to the tech industry attracting more talent ("in computing and IT, wages have generally been stagnant for the past decade, according to the EPI"). Money can absolutely make IT more cool, but unless you land in a promising startup, you're better off pursuing a career in finance or attending business school.
In the context of a country burdened with stagnanet wages and a growing wealth gap, repressed IT salaires are even more distrubing. While IT automation allows corporations to significantly downsize and slash mid-level executives across the board, the IT developers directly responsible for these greater efficiencies can never expect to earn the same $300k salaries of the laid off executives. You might think that as high paying US middle management jobs are lost, equally attractive IT jobs might help stem the drain on US middle class incomes. But there are few signs that even the supposedly systemic shortages of programmers in a country where "software is eating the world" can lift IT salaries across the board, year over year, over a significant period of time. Ask yourself- why hasn't IT wage inflation, inevitable under the normal market conditions of a true shortage, reduced corporate profits by even one tenth of one percent over the past decade?
Just as troubling, US corporations can lean on H1-B consultants as a band-aid that lets them avoid the steps needed to actually address the underlying problems they see in the tech labor market. Despite record profits, how many corporations have revamped their technology department training and recruitment practices, or started offering better benefits and improved career paths to new IT hires? Why don't college-bound kids generally show even the slightest amout of excitement when asked about the promise of working in IT? The answer is simple- those jobs are no more attractive than they were 10 or 20 years ago. Exciting opportunities for advancement or higher pay or even the opportunity for mentorship from leaders in non-IT parts of the business? Good luck with that! Let's face it, beyond the opportunity to indulge your joy of coding on a daily basis, IT jobs still suck. H1-B programs let corporations avoid spending resources needed for real, substantial improvements.
Unsurprising to find that such a small percentage of applications were for musicians / singers. Is that not what the artist category in the O visa was designed for?
The O visa is only for people who can demonstrate "extraordinary" capability. This usually means published, well-known, etc. Not all artists and musicians qualify.
[+] [-] ChuckMcM|12 years ago|reply
[1] http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Computer+Programmer&l1=San+F...
[+] [-] DavidChouinard|12 years ago|reply
There are half a dozen other job categorization that could also be computer programmers, such as:
• Software Developers, Applications
• Software Developers, Systems Software
• Web Developers
• Software Quality Assurance Engineers and Testers
• Network and Computer Systems Administrator
• Computer Systems Analysts
• Computer Operators
• Database Administrators
The wages are much higher for other job titles. (eg. $88,589 for "Software Developers, Applications")
Also, note that the figure you quote is for the SF Bay Area, while the H-1B figure is an average for the country. Big difference.
[+] [-] blinkingled|12 years ago|reply
The reality of it is that there is a need for "program assemblers" - people that can read up the APIs/programmer guides and cook up a working app OR maintain such an app. The need for such people is significant and it isn't always in sunny SFO - often times it is at a place where not many would relocate to.
That's why you need H1-Bs at the lower end of the market with lower salaries- it works because no one else who is already in the US with student debts and location preference is willing and for the guys coming from EU/India/China - it is a great start and an opportunity to try and get permanent residence to get up the chain.
[+] [-] bicknergseng|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jameshart|12 years ago|reply
[1] http://www1.salary.com/Programmer-Salary.html
[+] [-] ryandrake|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drpgq|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bostonpete|12 years ago|reply
I've hired a number of software engineers, both citizens and those needing H1-B sponsorship and a visa was never viewed as a significant factor in the offer amount nor was it viewed as an opportunity to get someone on the cheap.
[+] [-] stokedmartin|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stefap2|12 years ago|reply
Programmer/analyst | $1,690,000
Nexgen Infosys Inc, New York, NY
Employer's Proposed Wage $ 65,000
Wage Unit Bi-weekly
http://www.salar.ly/case?id=I-200-11028-403170
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Amadou|12 years ago|reply
http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134...
I also want to point out that despite the occasional anecdote of H1B visa holders being paid equal to, or even better than, their US citizen counterparts there is exactly zero budget for enforcement of this requirement. Even then, there are classification tricks to work around the occasional cursory check-up.
http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-...
[+] [-] ojbyrne|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agilecoder|12 years ago|reply
It is impossible to tell from the LCA data what companies actually followed through with the rest of the process and fees and were able to sponsor a foreign worker before the visa cap was hit each year. That information would come from US Citizenship and Immigration Service, and as far as I can find they do not release that information.
[+] [-] jacalata|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ray_manta|12 years ago|reply
First myth: H1B get lower salaries. For knowing a decent number of people with H1B, me included, I can say that's not the case. All of the people with H1B I know are paid more than 100k/year (some WAY more than that) at full-time positions with good health care and, for the people who work in startups, decent equity.
True it may be that the first job you get as an H1B might be paid less, I was at 60k when I started, but on my second job almost doubled my salary, and still got a significant increase in my second change.
Second myth: You cannot change jobs with an H1B. This is completely wrong. I have changed job twice in the past 3 years, and it's really easy. You just need to work with your new employer to get a new form which might take 2 to 3 weeks, but the process is pretty straight-forward, and even startups can do this easily without requiring armies of lawyers.
Of course I can't say that this is true for every single H1B employee out there, but from my experience I haven't seen much difference with US citizens/permanent residents, and would even go so far as saying that the most competent people I've had the chance to work with were on H1B visas.
Some people need to stop and learn before saying that "We need H1-B visas because there is a shortage of computer programmers living in the United States who will work for $64,000 a year when the average salary of all programmers is $94,000"...
[+] [-] jussij|12 years ago|reply
This is a clear indication that your skill set is in high demand.
> "We need H1-B visas because there is a shortage of computer programmers living in the United States who will work for $64,000 a year when the average salary of all programmers is $94,000"...
Doesn't your previous comment actually confirm this statement?
You took a HIB job paying a wage that did not accurately reflect your skill level and your ability to move up in wage scale so easily is a clear indication of that fact.
[+] [-] marcjgm|12 years ago|reply
One reason so many who apply actually get H1-Bs is that there is a cutoff (at which point they don't accept new applicants). This is (for the last few years) about a week after they're actually released (April). Though you can apply before this time, companies usually want you to start asap and so won't apply unless the time frame for application is right.
The threshold for application is also super high (doc requirements, company proof, $$$), thus increasing the likelihood that an application put forward will most likely be accepted. Most immigration lawyers will counsel against putting forward applications they think won't succeed to avoid the having angry clients. It's pretty clear (80-90% certainty) to most immigration lawyers what will and won't work.
Not sure what this study really tells us aside from the fact that it's so hard just to apply for an H1B that if you do, you'll probably get it.
[+] [-] mabbo|12 years ago|reply
Going home to visit family and friends became a real risk that we might lose our jobs. We were told "Do not cross at this crossing on these days of the week" because we'd had so many incidents of one guy who would just arbitrarily take away TN visas.
An H1B meant safety.
[+] [-] colmvp|12 years ago|reply
Most of my friends including myself who are Canadian or Mexican and working in the U.S. got TN visas and never have a problem at the border. Personally I prefer the TN because its been a ridiculously easy visa to acquire in terms of money and time.
[+] [-] ap3|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] greenyoda|12 years ago|reply
Also, there's some invalid data in the database: "Brooklyn, NY" is listed as a city, but it's not (it's a borough of NYC). That also means that the numbers for NYC are wrong, since they apparently don't include Brooklyn. This brings into question how reliable the rest of the data is.
[+] [-] datdo|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sp_|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samspenc|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EricaJoy|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] codexon|12 years ago|reply
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1bwritings.html
[+] [-] ffrryuu|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kamjam|12 years ago|reply
What is the relation between the "Applications Submitted" and "Employees Hired"? Given that this is just 2012 data, the there is a hard limit of 65,000 H1-B visas per year, this doesn't make sense to me. The figure in the article is a little misleading, I presume that the figured is over the past x years?
[+] [-] agilecoder|12 years ago|reply
To find out what visas were actually issued that information would come from US Citizenship and Immigration Service, and as far as I can find they do not release that information.
[+] [-] jacalata|12 years ago|reply
Not quite - the article actually explains the ways that this limit can be exceeded. That said, I find their numbers pretty odd - 150,000 applications leading to 300,000 approvals? For a post that is showing off their charting/presentation capabilities, it's very poorly presented data.
[+] [-] nknighthb|12 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Congressional_yearly_...
[+] [-] datdo|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hbharadwaj|12 years ago|reply
Consulting in this context is so muddled up.
True Consulting: McKinsey, Deloitte, PwC, KPMG, EY, etc.,
Off-shoring/Lesser expensive labor: Infosys, Wipro, Cognizant etc.,
Granted Infosys and Wipro may have some true consulting guys, but to put them in the same bucket as McKinsey or EY is a little ridiculous.
[+] [-] shreyansj|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ng12|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacques_chester|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eliben|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Sukotto|12 years ago|reply
I'm Canadian, living in Canada, and considering a move back to the US to work. However, I have a somewhat complicated history with US Immigration and I'd like professional advice to figure out my options.
Have you had a good experience with an immigration lawyer (In either the US or Canada)? If so, please post a link to their site (or email me if you prefer: [email protected] )
[+] [-] mabbo|12 years ago|reply
Alternatively, there are lots of those west coast companies opening offices in Toronto. Get hired there, then get a transfer.
[+] [-] dpweb|12 years ago|reply
Encourage folks to Google the IEEE articles lately on the 'worker shortage issue' and statistics. Interesting stuff.
[+] [-] to_jon|12 years ago|reply
Let me point out a few obvious and unsettling problems that stem from Infosys and its ilk directly importing developers into the IT offices of US corporations. First and foremost, if the number of programmers in this country is a real issue (see excellent article linked at bottom) and one that you're serious about solving, then the consequences of underpaid H1-B developers is troublesome. When companies can replace US hires with H1-B consultants, not only do US developers become comparatively expensive, but the number of job openings is also reduced, artificially holding down IT salaries. The market's answer to a shortage in supply is higher prices- yet stagnant IT salaries remain an obstacle to the tech industry attracting more talent ("in computing and IT, wages have generally been stagnant for the past decade, according to the EPI"). Money can absolutely make IT more cool, but unless you land in a promising startup, you're better off pursuing a career in finance or attending business school.
In the context of a country burdened with stagnanet wages and a growing wealth gap, repressed IT salaires are even more distrubing. While IT automation allows corporations to significantly downsize and slash mid-level executives across the board, the IT developers directly responsible for these greater efficiencies can never expect to earn the same $300k salaries of the laid off executives. You might think that as high paying US middle management jobs are lost, equally attractive IT jobs might help stem the drain on US middle class incomes. But there are few signs that even the supposedly systemic shortages of programmers in a country where "software is eating the world" can lift IT salaries across the board, year over year, over a significant period of time. Ask yourself- why hasn't IT wage inflation, inevitable under the normal market conditions of a true shortage, reduced corporate profits by even one tenth of one percent over the past decade?
Just as troubling, US corporations can lean on H1-B consultants as a band-aid that lets them avoid the steps needed to actually address the underlying problems they see in the tech labor market. Despite record profits, how many corporations have revamped their technology department training and recruitment practices, or started offering better benefits and improved career paths to new IT hires? Why don't college-bound kids generally show even the slightest amout of excitement when asked about the promise of working in IT? The answer is simple- those jobs are no more attractive than they were 10 or 20 years ago. Exciting opportunities for advancement or higher pay or even the opportunity for mentorship from leaders in non-IT parts of the business? Good luck with that! Let's face it, beyond the opportunity to indulge your joy of coding on a daily basis, IT jobs still suck. H1-B programs let corporations avoid spending resources needed for real, substantial improvements.
Is there actually a STEM shortage?
http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i...
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] patrickod|12 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa
[+] [-] potatolicious|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seldo|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacques_chester|12 years ago|reply