While there is nothing inherently wrong with experiments like that, there should be no mistake that "taking the SNAP challenge" does not give you a deep understanding about the condition of being poor. Living by $4.50 a day for a week with a seven figure bank account, a nice car and a house in an upscale neighborhood makes you a tourist.
I just don't understand the rationale behind this. It's not like there is a big misunderstanding about the poor living an awesome life. What's missing is the slightest shred of empathy for them.
But she didn't understand,
she just smiled and held my hand.
Rent a flat above a shop,
cut your hair and get a job.
Smoke some fags and play some pool,
pretend you never went to school.
But still you'll never get it right,
cos when you're laid in bed at night,
watching roaches climb the wall,
if you call your Dad he could stop it all.
-- Pulp, Common People
I agree with you to the extent that this article could include more about what you wwrote, but "As I said in my initial post, you won't hear me claim that my experiences from the upcoming week represent an authentic representation of food insecurity in America." And yes, I even think that, despite appearances, it is a bit disrespectful. But I also think there's value to the post:
He actually fails to create a properly nutritious and tasty diet. And writes about it. And that's without additional constraints, in "easy" mode. I think that's very illustrative.
From the article: "As I said in my initial post, you won't hear me claim that my experiences from the upcoming week represent an authentic representation of food insecurity in America. My goal is merely to help bring awareness to the issue and spark deeper conversations about food insecurity and possible solutions..."
Unfortunately, that's not true. There are a lot of people out there who genuinely think that the poor in the Western world are simply lazy, and that they could manage perfectly well in similar circumstances.
I've seen quite a few of those comments on HN. I recall one commenter, even, claiming that the obesity problem in the US proved that welfare payments were generous if not over-generous, because "our poor eat like gluttons".
The more evidence against idiotic viewpoints like that which accumulates through experiments like this, the better.
You should have read the post. Both your concerns are covered. Not only does he acknowledge that his challenge is not representative of the reality people have to go through, but he clearly spells out his reasoning.
"As I said in my initial post, you won't hear me claim that my experiences from the upcoming week represent an authentic representation of food insecurity in America. My goal is merely to help bring awareness to the issue and spark deeper conversations about food insecurity and possible solutions – discussions that organizations like Feeding America are driving every day."
Quite. I am put in mind of a 90s New Zealand politician who started an effort to live on the newly-reduced social welfare payments, but called it off a few days in because one of her kids got sick.
There is hidden cost in being poor: You don't have a car, or money for gas - so you don't have access to cheaper stores. Simple as that. Did he account for it?
It serves a specific, seemingly opposed purpose: to prove that there exist food choices that allow people to subsist on SNAP. This anecdote will be cited in the future for showing that there are 'many choices' for food
Apparently, when a a CEO does it, it's news worthy, while for an actual poor person, its just everyday. In the end though, it's a good thing, he has the ability to attract people's attention on the matter which may lead to positive change, a resource that poor people don't have.
Exactly. This is akin to trying to experience the loss of a child by leaving your kid for a week. Might be a good experience none the less, but don't kid yourself.
You can't simulate being broke. Actually being broke is only part of it. The larger part is not knowing when, if ever, it'll end, and therefore having to plan your life around being perennially skint.
"On Wednesday night, after a long work day, I got into my car"
That's his first mistake. Many (most?) people on food stamps can't afford a car. When you have little money for food, and you just got off the late shift of your second job, you have an even longer trip to the store, costing you more money.
Many of these people also may live in food deserts, where the most common type of store is a liquor store, followed maybe by a payday loan place and a gas station, or a bar. That's where I live anyway.
The closest grocery store is a very poorly maintained Aldi, and some people I know take a cab there and back once a week so they don't have to spend an hour or more traveling by bus.
A lot of people on food stamps have no choice. They live in communities with little or no public transit infrastructure, and are forced to own and maintain a personal vehicle to get to and from their minimum-wage job. They live in places designed for a twentieth-century middle class supported by high-paying factory jobs and an infinite supply of petroleum.
How long is the taxi ride? And does the bus pass by any properly-maintained grocery stores? I'm really interested in this because the bus near me goes from suburbs to the middle of downtown in about half an hour, going by quite a few groceries. I didn't know it was possible to be that far from anywhere to buy food in a non-rural area.
Just curious, where do you live? I ask because the only time I've ever had to take taxis constantly was when visiting NYC, and it still wasn't cheap (although, cheaper than a taxi to the airport 10 mins away).
I don't know about people on food stamps specifically (the data doesn't slice by it), but most (70%) poor people have at least one car. 25% have two or more cars.
Somebody on Quora once wrote beautifully about how it's impossible for the rich to ever understand what it's like to be truly, horribly poor- because there is no escape. There is no safety. The writer described how, even when he was in dire straits, at the back of his mind he knew that he could count on maybe extended family or something or someone to pull him out of trouble. The poor have no such privilege. True despair means being truly, completely cut off.
So there's really very little a rich person can do to walk in the shoes of a poor person- because even if say, Bill Gates gave away ALL his fortune and got himself into crippling debt or something- at least some people will recognize that he's Bill Gates, and treat him differently for it.
No simple solutions to offer here, just saying dis shit is complex.
> Somebody on Quora once wrote beautifully about how it's impossible for the rich to ever understand what it's like to be truly, horribly poor- because there is no escape. There is no safety.
Jarvis Cocker wrote quite a good song in that vein:
In agreement with "dis shit is complex", I think the statement that rich people can never understand is too narrow to be true, because it ignores the rich people who came up from humble beginnings and moved up a class or two. There are a lot of those people in the programming profession -- perhaps it's because 'at the back of their mind, they can count on their intellect getting them through it all eventually'. If one accepts that there's a correlation between intelligence and income, then many poor people probably don't even have the hope that they can learn how to do a professional trade and get out of their situation that way. I'd rather see more money pumped into brain enhancement than to pay bureaucrats to come up with 'new' ways to fix the problem that eventually just boil down to giving the poor more money.
Many many years ago as a new parent recently laid off we went on the 'food stamp program'. They really were little pieces of paper back then. I ate better for those 7 weeks than I had all my adult life to that point. And it was years before I was able to eat that well again.
The system is great for what it tries to do, help people in need. But in my opinion we have gone far too far in trying to remove the 'stigma' of being on aid. Instead of heading in to town to collect our stamps you get an EBT card with money automatically added to your account each month. It's too easy to take the money. When we were on aid we needed it. But having to use those colored pieces of paper in line at the grocery store while everyone else watched was a huge motivator to get out and get a job.
Sigh. Food stamps are properly called SNAP or "Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program". The name isn't a joke--they are supposed to be "supplemental", not an all-you-can-eat buffet. The reality is that they cause all kinds of abuses, some legal and some illegal. The CEO of Panera Bread is probably not an idiot, and is probably aware of this, so I think it would be best that we not take his pandering too seriously.
I've tried this for a few months. It's hard to do just the rice and beans. We modified it by adding salsa, shredded cheese, and tortilla shells to make burritos out of everything. It's probably an extra $20-$30 per month to do that.
Yes he should do this for a month, and he should try it as a woman. You can't buy tampons with food stamps.
I tried to survive with food stamps for a while when I lived on the streets as a teen. It was impractical for actually supplementing my survival. When you have nowhere to live, you have nowhere to cook.
But there's something authentic about sharing things as you realize them. Less chance for editing. It's also going to give him an interesting POV on his own evolution and realizations.
"The distinctive ripping sound of someone biting into a fresh apple; the maracas-like percussion produced by a canister of Planters’ peanuts; even the change in a person’s voice that occurs when they speak with a lifesaver in their mouth – I was hyper aware whenever those around me consumed. At about 6:25 p.m., I even broke down and paid 40 cents to a colleague for a small handful of peanuts, and soon after, handed over a dime to another for an Atomic Fireball. For those keeping score, I’m down to $5.05 remaining to supplement the groceries I bought at the start of the Challenge."
It reminds me of a trip I took with some friends where we had planned all of our meals as military MRE's (Meals Ready to Eat). We figured that we were very clever for having the military do our nutritional research for us. After a few days of almost exclusively eating these wretched things, I found that I could smell cucumbers being sliced over a mile away. Obviously, things like bacon and hamburgers frying were much stronger even than the cucumbers. I had the same experience as Shalch describes that I found myself marking time until the next meal, and I imagine that I was getting a lot more calories than he is (I was probably burning more too), because we brought some extra food and coffee, and weren't limited by our budget.
These kinds of challenges are pointless. It's true that living on a food stamp budget is hard, but it's not impossible.
The real trouble begins when you encounter unexpected costs. When you are living from hand to mouth you can't plan ahead for whatever mishap might happen, be it illness, a car crash or just about anything that might make your already tight budget nonexistent.
I should note that the latest Farm Bill attempted to decouple SNAP funds from the agriculture parts of the bill, which historically was the only way to protect SNAP benefits from being significantly slashed.
So, while this is a commendable action on his part, there are individuals inside his company funding candidates and a party that advocates elimination of the entire program, because of supposed moochers and "young bucks" who go and buy steaks, abusing the system. Perhaps he can lead by example and help change some attitudes inside his company.
EDIT: The political donations are from individuals in the company, instead of from a PAC the company controls. There are however, other organizations that Panera may be a part of (The Chamber of Commerce comes to mind) that also have poured a lot of money into Republican coffers.
He has dried chickpeas and lentils, both of which are beans. Rice can be substituted for pasta with some cost inefficiency as they are both basically straight carbs. So, the majority of the nutritional content of his purchase is essentially rice and beans.
Funny, I actually just had that for dinner tonight. Trader Joe's instant jasmine rice, organic black beans, cherry tomatoes from the local farmers' market. Surprisingly cheap, easy, and delicious.
I don't think a $30/week grocery budget is unreasonable at all, with a bit of ingenuity (and, critically, proximity to the aforementioned vendors; food deserts turn this whole thing on its head).
I was going to say the same thing. It was backup in college. Rice, bean, tortillas, and a taco sauce. There are huge challenges though with condiments. Olive oil was an example of something which is really expensive but it lasts multiple weeks (if used sparingly) but it can blow the current week's budget.
Well, he said he rarely goes grocery shopping. I assume that means he has someone else to do the shopping and cooking. So he is probably not as savvy as someone who shops and cooks regularly.
He may not have many bean soup / bean salad / crockpot recipes.
This page:
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1269
outlines SNAP benefits which currently are $200 for single person, or $6.45 per day, or $45 a week. Why does it say $31.50 in the article?
Slightly off topic. I was once told panera always has to show a full stock of every type of bread until closing hour. This means a large quantity of bread gets discarded at the end of the day just because a half empty shelf looks bad.
I was provided this information by a girl who volunteered at a soup kitchen. She told me they often harvested this source of still perfectly good bread.
I never checked independently, so if anyone has any idea this is false please let me know.
I've read this some time ago, and although I did not remembered all the details - something stuck in me - that being poor is not something easily emulated, or experimented.
Here is the article (don't know much about the guy that wrote it, political orientation or so, but it's an eye opener) -
One thing that stuck with me was the "car" situation. I didn't drive a car because of my choice (not money), i live in LA, but when our son was born I had to take driving lessons. It kind went well for us, since we can go now to Costco more often, than Whole Foods across the street. Also cutting down to paying taxis, or waiting too much for the bus has a benefit (if only LA's transit, or Santa Monica's one was a bit better).
I assume that if things keep going the way that they have been in the last five years then food stamps will also be coming to the UK. As I see it it's a method used by politicians to prevent the poor from participating in the wider economy, by ensuring that they may only have access to politically approved resources.
Really respect him for what he tried to do, but there may be a flaw in the logic behind competitions like this. He said with the 30 something dollars budget he was forced to drop items like milk and coffee, but for many items like that, they will last for more than a week (I certainly don't drink a gallon of milk a week). So their cost is distributed over more than just one week.
A more realistic challenge would be given a weekly budget but make the challenge to last say.. a month or so. But for obvious reasons it won't be as easy to pull off :)
A month would be more realistic, but i'm not sure you can replicate the real situation in a time-box. A single week, like any change in diet, would just show how difficult it is to change habits, and how well you can forestall your desires. A month would allow time to form new habits, but you can still wait out the time limit to indulge your cravings.
Also when your poor you need to buy milk because cereal is cheap and filling. I spent $91 this week for groceries for 3 people this week and it will last. Cereal, 50% off meat, half off soups, and so on.
If you really want to eat cheaply, I suspect the trick is to go to "ethnic" groceries. I remember a reddit post about Paraguyuan meals that cost very little, I would suspect Indian-style veggie meals would also be reasonably cheap.
Just saying the Panera CEO is doing this to raise awareness about the low minimum wage. He's incapable of living as a poor person, of course he has luxuries -- namely the knowledge of how to escape poverty.
Do we need a raise in the minimum wage? Sure, I guess. But more we need to empower poor people with skills that build the confidence to get themselves out of being poor.
I have a family of 4 and budget $500 for groceries and personal care item plus $120 for eating out.
Please respond to this thread with your household size and budget.
For reference, max monthly SNAP allotment:
Household of 1: $200
Household of 2: $367
Household of 3: $526
Household of 4: $668
Household of 5: $793
Household of 6: $952
[+] [-] thomasz|12 years ago|reply
I just don't understand the rationale behind this. It's not like there is a big misunderstanding about the poor living an awesome life. What's missing is the slightest shred of empathy for them.
[+] [-] LaGrange|12 years ago|reply
He actually fails to create a properly nutritious and tasty diet. And writes about it. And that's without additional constraints, in "easy" mode. I think that's very illustrative.
[+] [-] ddellacosta|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thenomad|12 years ago|reply
I've seen quite a few of those comments on HN. I recall one commenter, even, claiming that the obesity problem in the US proved that welfare payments were generous if not over-generous, because "our poor eat like gluttons".
The more evidence against idiotic viewpoints like that which accumulates through experiments like this, the better.
[+] [-] jasonlotito|12 years ago|reply
"As I said in my initial post, you won't hear me claim that my experiences from the upcoming week represent an authentic representation of food insecurity in America. My goal is merely to help bring awareness to the issue and spark deeper conversations about food insecurity and possible solutions – discussions that organizations like Feeding America are driving every day."
[+] [-] rodgerd|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] malkia|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nonchalance|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cynwoody|12 years ago|reply
In Ron's case, you're probably off a couple or three of those bank figgers.
[+] [-] tomjen3|12 years ago|reply
Go start a company and then make some good jobs - pay your customer service people well and you will reap it in.
[+] [-] return0|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andyroid|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hannibal5|12 years ago|reply
Science 30 August 2013: Vol. 341 no. 6149 pp. 976-980 DOI: 10.1126/science.1238041 Poverty Impedes Cognitive Function
[+] [-] madaxe|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] peterwwillis|12 years ago|reply
That's his first mistake. Many (most?) people on food stamps can't afford a car. When you have little money for food, and you just got off the late shift of your second job, you have an even longer trip to the store, costing you more money.
Many of these people also may live in food deserts, where the most common type of store is a liquor store, followed maybe by a payday loan place and a gas station, or a bar. That's where I live anyway.
The closest grocery store is a very poorly maintained Aldi, and some people I know take a cab there and back once a week so they don't have to spend an hour or more traveling by bus.
[+] [-] mortenjorck|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Dylan16807|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shitlord|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thejulielogan|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yummyfajitas|12 years ago|reply
http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf
Also, most poor people (78%) don't have even one job, let alone two (nor are they even looking for one).
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2011.pdf
[+] [-] visakanv|12 years ago|reply
So there's really very little a rich person can do to walk in the shoes of a poor person- because even if say, Bill Gates gave away ALL his fortune and got himself into crippling debt or something- at least some people will recognize that he's Bill Gates, and treat him differently for it.
No simple solutions to offer here, just saying dis shit is complex.
[+] [-] jbert|12 years ago|reply
Jarvis Cocker wrote quite a good song in that vein:
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/pulp/commonpeople.html
[+] [-] Jach|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nodata|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SteveGerencser|12 years ago|reply
The system is great for what it tries to do, help people in need. But in my opinion we have gone far too far in trying to remove the 'stigma' of being on aid. Instead of heading in to town to collect our stamps you get an EBT card with money automatically added to your account each month. It's too easy to take the money. When we were on aid we needed it. But having to use those colored pieces of paper in line at the grocery store while everyone else watched was a huge motivator to get out and get a job.
[+] [-] mynameishere|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmtame|12 years ago|reply
I've tried this for a few months. It's hard to do just the rice and beans. We modified it by adding salsa, shredded cheese, and tortilla shells to make burritos out of everything. It's probably an extra $20-$30 per month to do that.
[+] [-] littletables|12 years ago|reply
I tried to survive with food stamps for a while when I lived on the streets as a teen. It was impractical for actually supplementing my survival. When you have nowhere to live, you have nowhere to cook.
[+] [-] jared314|12 years ago|reply
http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20130914223744-25...
I would have rather read this at the end of the challenge, so there would be some sort of perspective on things.
[+] [-] thejulielogan|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fnordfnordfnord|12 years ago|reply
"The distinctive ripping sound of someone biting into a fresh apple; the maracas-like percussion produced by a canister of Planters’ peanuts; even the change in a person’s voice that occurs when they speak with a lifesaver in their mouth – I was hyper aware whenever those around me consumed. At about 6:25 p.m., I even broke down and paid 40 cents to a colleague for a small handful of peanuts, and soon after, handed over a dime to another for an Atomic Fireball. For those keeping score, I’m down to $5.05 remaining to supplement the groceries I bought at the start of the Challenge."
It reminds me of a trip I took with some friends where we had planned all of our meals as military MRE's (Meals Ready to Eat). We figured that we were very clever for having the military do our nutritional research for us. After a few days of almost exclusively eating these wretched things, I found that I could smell cucumbers being sliced over a mile away. Obviously, things like bacon and hamburgers frying were much stronger even than the cucumbers. I had the same experience as Shalch describes that I found myself marking time until the next meal, and I imagine that I was getting a lot more calories than he is (I was probably burning more too), because we brought some extra food and coffee, and weren't limited by our budget.
[+] [-] zirok|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sc68cal|12 years ago|reply
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000059478&cy...
I should note that the latest Farm Bill attempted to decouple SNAP funds from the agriculture parts of the bill, which historically was the only way to protect SNAP benefits from being significantly slashed.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaarumugam/2013/07/13/republi...
So, while this is a commendable action on his part, there are individuals inside his company funding candidates and a party that advocates elimination of the entire program, because of supposed moochers and "young bucks" who go and buy steaks, abusing the system. Perhaps he can lead by example and help change some attitudes inside his company.
EDIT: The political donations are from individuals in the company, instead of from a PAC the company controls. There are however, other organizations that Panera may be a part of (The Chamber of Commerce comes to mind) that also have poured a lot of money into Republican coffers.
[+] [-] jeffdavis|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neltnerb|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mortenjorck|12 years ago|reply
I don't think a $30/week grocery budget is unreasonable at all, with a bit of ingenuity (and, critically, proximity to the aforementioned vendors; food deserts turn this whole thing on its head).
[+] [-] ChuckMcM|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mixmastamyk|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] viennacoder|12 years ago|reply
He may not have many bean soup / bean salad / crockpot recipes.
[+] [-] smsm42|12 years ago|reply
Also, there are other food programs where he lives (assuming it's indeed Boston): http://www.massresources.org/food.html
[+] [-] carlob|12 years ago|reply
I was provided this information by a girl who volunteered at a soup kitchen. She told me they often harvested this source of still perfectly good bread.
I never checked independently, so if anyone has any idea this is false please let me know.
[+] [-] malkia|12 years ago|reply
Here is the article (don't know much about the guy that wrote it, political orientation or so, but it's an eye opener) -
http://blumenauer.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&tas...
One thing that stuck with me was the "car" situation. I didn't drive a car because of my choice (not money), i live in LA, but when our son was born I had to take driving lessons. It kind went well for us, since we can go now to Costco more often, than Whole Foods across the street. Also cutting down to paying taxis, or waiting too much for the bus has a benefit (if only LA's transit, or Santa Monica's one was a bit better).
[+] [-] motters|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Cookingboy|12 years ago|reply
A more realistic challenge would be given a weekly budget but make the challenge to last say.. a month or so. But for obvious reasons it won't be as easy to pull off :)
[+] [-] jared314|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gscott|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dnccrfctyq|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tomjen3|12 years ago|reply
Have you tried to live on SNAP when you don't have to? Though so, given the guy a break.
[+] [-] dbg31415|12 years ago|reply
Look, not saying it's easy to be poor.
Just saying the Panera CEO is doing this to raise awareness about the low minimum wage. He's incapable of living as a poor person, of course he has luxuries -- namely the knowledge of how to escape poverty.
Do we need a raise in the minimum wage? Sure, I guess. But more we need to empower poor people with skills that build the confidence to get themselves out of being poor.
[+] [-] phamilton|12 years ago|reply
I have a family of 4 and budget $500 for groceries and personal care item plus $120 for eating out.
Please respond to this thread with your household size and budget.
For reference, max monthly SNAP allotment: Household of 1: $200 Household of 2: $367 Household of 3: $526 Household of 4: $668 Household of 5: $793 Household of 6: $952