The fact that a formal engineering/MBA education isn't a prerequisite for business success is almost a tautology now, especially among software startups. So there is nothing new here.
There are some half-truths though:
> For some reasons, Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without pedigree can get somewhere in life.
- Airtel, India's largest telecom company, was started by Sunil Mittal, armed with just a Bachelor of Arts degree from a second-rung university.
- Reliance Industries, India's largest private conglomerate, was started by Dhirubhai Ambani, had no college degree.
- The Zee TV group, one of India's largest media and entertainment conglomerates, was started by Subhash Chandra, who dropped out of school after class 12.
- There are many more multi-billion dollar enterprises like Adani and Sobha, that were founded by entrepreneurs without college degrees.
- Quickheal, India's largest anti-virus company, was founded by Kailash Katkar, never studied after school.
- Maxx Mobile, one of the leading low-cost phone makers in India was founded by Ajay Agarwal, a class 9 dropout.
I could go on.
By insisting that Indians "just can't deal with entrepreneurs without pedigree", the author is at best being disingenuous, or at worst slaying a straw man only to elevate his own achievements.
Finally, the stereotyping in the linkbait title, "The Indian and his insatiable..." doesn't help. As others have already pointed out, people (not just Indians, but around the world) make career/education choices in response to the financial/cultural environment around them.
To the average middle-class parents who grew up dealing with scarcity, low incomes, corruption and limited opportunities, the "multi-national job" represents stability, meritocracy, global opportunities and a respectable income.
There really is no reason to belittle them for their choices.
There are many countries, just like India, where exactly the same thing happens. There are countless examples of people who live a wealthy life (this tends to be the common denominator of success in societies where poverty is rampant), but most of the middle- and lower-class inhabitants are convinced you can't get anywhere unless you're at the top of your class.
Folk statistics doesn't work the way you describe it. I know it's frustrating to watch, but it simply is that way.
I would hardly say that he is belittling people in the situation you describe. What he is attempting to discourage is the mentality that sticks to the dogmatic cultural position even in the face of a) historical data indicating that academic pedigree isn't a rock-solid predictor of success, and b) local data indicating a higher than average likelihood of success for the individual in question.
This is a specific example of a problem that every culture faces, which is cultural memes that have taken on the form of divine wisdom. Not everyone will be Mittal or Gates, in fact that population is a statistically non-existent one; that doesn't mean that dropping out of college to run a startup is the worst idea for any given person. Any culture shutting off that opportunity regardless of the specific case will cost itself in lost opportunities.
And as an aside on the specific content, I am not Indian, but reading this I couldn't help but remember my Indian friends' impressions of their aunts and uncles admonishing them for doing something insane like getting an advanced economic degree when they could have been a doctor or engineer.
The examples you point out only make this obsession sadder and more ironic, though. In other words, it can be the case that all of your examples are true and people in India still are obsessed with the MBA or engineering degree.
Completely agree. The average Indian middle class parent has a lot of other beliefs too which are comfortably side-stepped by their children. In my personal experience, many people use their parents' views as an excuse for their own lack of conviction in what they want to do.
Firstly being entrepreneur and going to college are not orthogonal goals.
Secondly for any poor person in India, without any funding or support. No infrastructure, no exposure and having to fight a historic burden of poverty in the family. Not getting a college education means, the guy will eventually end up working at a tailor's shop or a garage or driver. Working whole life only to hope his son breaks of the cycle of poverty in the next generation.
Contrary to whatever you might think, you can't hard-work your way out of all problems all the time, I know that from personal experience. For a rich person a big financial failure means, a good decent chance to start up again. For a lower middle class person such a failure means, the end of life. Full Stop! Because the debts will drown you till you reach your grave.
The fact is for any lower middle/class and poor person. Getting a decent education is the easiest way to get a job, and then use that money to bootstrap their projects or start up.
You might not learn anything in a college, or a degree might not prep you up for prime time rock star development shops. But it will get you a job, buy you some financial freedom. And then you will have good enough time to iteratively learn and bootstrap your own business.
And beyond all, not everyone's family can write them a check to start something their teens or at any age. Most people live so hand to mouth, without a monthly salary they are pretty much bust!
Before criticizing some one please take into note the fact, they don't enjoy the same privileges and benefits as your do.
I agree. It's hard to see the usefullness of a degree in a poor 3rd world country if you wasn't born in one. Nowadays it's possible to be an entrepeneur with somebody elses money, the internet, kickstater and the apple app-store, but all those things are unavailable in india.
In a huge 3rd world country, a degree is obviously useful. It's a gov-issued certification, a way to transfer trust from the person having the degree to the government. You don't need to trust the guy because the government says he can code. If you don't see why that's useful probably you never had 10000 applications sent to you.
The problem with degree inflation is the same as any other kind of inflation, it lowers (devaluates?) the value of the degree.
The reason for emphasis on education in India is because for most families getting their children educated and a job is the least risk way to have a better life style. The author seems to conveniently forget that most Indian family cannot afford a computer, let alone one with internet. Even if their parent make it available to their children, that would have cost an arm and leg for them. The risk of not going to college and getting into business is something they cannot afford, because a failure in this case would follow them till death. The author seems to be of the view that others are narrow minded, while he himself is not able to see beyond his situation. Congrats for succeeding without a college degree, but do not go about belittling others (especially his teachers!), for they know the ground realities better. As kamaal said using the money from job to bootstrap is the best way for many youngsters from my generation at least.
I really wish I could upvote your answer more. This is the side of the discussion that most people seem to be missing.
This does not take away anything from the author, his entrepreneurship and his overall success, mind you. However, the points made by ~kamaal and everyone else in this thread are extremely valid. They represent the part of India that is not so 'shining'.
I myself fall in the same category as the author. I chose to drop out of my Masters in Physics (with an elective in Astrophysics) and went to work as a Radio Show host for a commercial radio station. It was made possible only because of an invisible fallback option that my parents provided. Without it, I would probably be working away at a 9 to 5 job writing uninspired code for some company rather than sitting at home trying my hand at programming with Python.
This is not confined to India; this is - broadly and generally speaking - also a condition in lower class USA, particularly if the individuals aren't hustlers or have contact with people who understand money.
Source: Anecdotes and reading lots of news articles.
>> Getting a decent "education" is the easiest way to get a job
The traditional education system WAS the easiest way to get a job. Nowadays, it is the easiest way NOT to get a job.
Step 1: Download the 10 books x 4 (years) = 40 books of the average university degree.
Step 2: Unless it's mathematics, it is just literature. Read it.
Step 3: Sit the 10 x 4 exams at an online college.
In most developed countries, you have just managed NOT to spend 100 000 USD and NOT to waste 4 years of your life. All of this sounds useless, and it probably is equally useless, but at least it is not as time-consuming nor as expensive as the traditional alternative.
> For a lower middle class person such a failure means, the end of life. Full Stop! Because the debts will drown you till you reach your grave.
Debts? Does India not have limited-liability corporations? In rational countries, when your business idea fails, you just throw away the company and start another.
This isn't specific to Indian culture. There are several cultures that will emphasize college degrees over entrepreneurship. I know this is hard to understand from a fairly successful entrepreneur's perspective but the cold hard truth is that most entrepreneurs fail. This is what causes the whole 'it's safer to get a college degree' mentality.
I've been an entrepreneur (fairly successful) since I was 13. Yet my folks said I should get a college degree. I did get an engineering degree while 'entrepreneuring' at the same time. Does my degree help me in any direct way ? Nope. But there are several indirect benefits that a degree can get you first amongst which are that in general people think you are capable and well educated. I don't personally subscribe to this thought process but hey, we have to live in this world with everyone else, right ? My degree has opened doors for me and made some people take me more seriously. It has had zero practical contribution towards my endeavors but sometimes opening a door is all it takes. Not only people but even governments sometimes want certain degrees for certain categories of work permits (even if it's totally irrelevant to your work but a degree helps you). Then of course you have the benefits of an alumni network, etc etc. but those are really what you make of them because you can network otherwise as well. But a degree is a formal qualification - treated as such by society and the government. Does it mean you know more ? Probably not. Do people in general think you do ? Probably yes.
I'd still say that in the world today, a college degree matters a lot depending on who you are talking to. It won't matter if you're talking to me but there are a lot of people out there who care about whether you have one or not.
> Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without pedigree can get somewhere in life.
I am not Indian, nor have I spent time in India, so I hope I am right in thinking that this speaks to present growing pains in Indian tech culture. I say growing pains because I think, and hope, that this valuation of pedigree over merit is coming to an end, as it is already at an end in parts of the U.S.
There are, if I may say so, a lot of bad Indian programmers. They’re bad not because they’re Indian, of course, but because they don’t really want to be programmers. It’s a career option. Engineering and business are things you study in school because they’re where money and prestige are. But studying in school and learning are entirely different things.
> The only way your son is ever going to succeed being an entrepreneur is by getting himself an MBA.
I want to believe that this, though it be the present, is not the future of Indian tech entrepreneurship.
There are, if I may say so, a lot of bad Indian programmers. They’re bad not because they’re Indian, of course, but because they don’t really want to be programmers.
I observed long ago that (in my Silicon Valley experience) white American programmers were always good programmers, because white Americans only become programmers if they really want to be programmers. The same cannot always be said of other nationalities and ethnic groups.
At least, that's been true until now. The glamorization of programming and the advent of 10-week programming cram courses may change things.
So my family is from Bangladesh. My aunt and uncle moved to Toronto. My cousin wants to study business and get an MBA, but his parents want him to study electrical engineering. I didn't get it, until I realized its all about risk aversion. An engineering degree is a secure path to the middle class. A business degree isn't, and entrerpeneurship certainly isn't. The business degree might have a higher potential reward, but middle of the class engineers still get jobs.
I find it fascinating that engineering is now seen as a secure path to middle class.
When I was in college, construction was a secure path to middle class, and engineering was something reserved for folks who wanted to make 300k, but work 80 hours a week, a decidedly not-middle-class work ethic.
I agree it's perfectly possible to get somewhere as an entrepreneur without a college degree. But it's hardly detrimental to have one either.
And I'm kind of sick of the US-centric view that all college degrees cost $100,000+ -- many high quality degrees in other western countries cost as little as 10-20% of this figure (and often are paid for in a deferred payment scheme). As with so many things (like healthcare) it's just another area the US seems to have gone insane with.
> And I'm kind of sick of the US-centric view that all college degrees cost $100,000+ -- many high quality degrees in other western countries cost as little as 10-20% of this figure
It doesn't seem out of line to me. The average high school graduate in Canada will earn about $30,000 per year during the typical age one goes to university. Assuming a degree takes four years, that is a cost of $120,000 right there, ignoring any other fees that may be associated with enrolment.
Just like you even I wanted to dropout and start something I wanted or wished to do. My parents aren't too conservative. But my dad told me something which I believe is very true - "Getting a degree is highly rewarding. If tomorrow your business crashes, you'd at least have a degree to back you up with a job. Degree is for your secure future not to please the society around you". No doubt this is true. And as my dad said, its more for you than anyone else. But again its more than that, getting a degree pays more than just societal status and a more savvy future. That being said, I personally want to know each and every specific topic in full depth. And I believe that can only happen with a proper mentor over me and like-minded peers around me. In other words, in a "university". Plus college helps you with many other things in "life" and not just academically. But then it depends on what you want to do and accordingly it matters if a degree is worth it or not.
I hope students (especially) take this post in the right gesture. Dropping out is not the best solution always. Doesn't work for everyone. Its not cool to dropout because Zuck, Gates and Jobs did. You "have to have" a strong reason why university isnt the best option for you.
+1 otherwise for the post. Good to know you had the support you needed. Doesn't happen with everyone. All the best ;)
I see college as a learning place. A place where you learn about everything but study topics. College is the place where I met my co-founder.
It is really a great place where you can meet new talented people, learn how to work in a team. Its a place where you can have fights, fall and learn again.
It is the place where you learn to present your Idea by presenting it among your friends first. They can help if you lack something. This kind of things are usually not very easy in the outside world. Because the outside world is busy competing with you.
You meet so many types of people that you learn to categories the people. What kind of people are A Grade and what kind are B grade. This helps you to when you will start hiring.
You say going to college is not worth it. Well another big problem with our thinking is that we think that college is just to learn the "courses". Well its not. Its a lot more than that. I am also a student in one of the most reputable colleges in India, but the way I think, learning is just a state of mind, place doesn't matter. I myself use to think that i have wasted my 4 years learning computer science, that I could have learnt all this in just a year and a half, but today as I am trying to build my startup, I understand that this all connect dots. Even I am not interested in grades at all, but i never stop working on my startup.
So, As I see it, college is like a big sand ground, where you can fall, again and again, and learn to fight. And all this without hurting yourself.
you said "one of the most reputable colleges in India"... and your statements stand true for those kinda colleges... Let me remind you - those are few - very few.... for all the other colleges - I agree with the author - Those "other" kinda colleges are in huge numbers - they produce quantity without quality and as a result many people see India's out-of-college talent "unusable" ... and they result into bad programmers/(engineers/lawyers/doctors/whatever-profession)... and they also result into bad teachers - and the loop goes on...
I think people underestimate the systemic restrictions placed on the Indian Middle Class, and fail to realise the connection to a larger problem India faces, viz. drastic shortage.
You want to become a doctor? Too bad you don't have an MBBS. We don't care whether you decided to become one only during college, and are willing to spend a few extra years catching up.
Except for diplomas (by which I mean qualifications like CA, which you theoretically could get without attending classes at a college) doesn't place a prerequisite on having a degree. Every master's program I have come across requires a bachelor's degree. Some are more flexible, admitting degrees outside the relevant fields. But most are not.
The reason is pretty simple : In a country like India where anything good suffers a big shortage, people generally prefer to stick to rules, creating many false negatives. This is because no one wants to take up liability in case a false negative crops up. "I followed all the regulations and suggestions," they say.
So anything that involves an expected, and common path ends up needing college degrees as prerequisites. For the Middle Class which cannot afford to wait out a few years, they have no choice but to toe the line. Only if you have any capital (and in India, connections) to begin with, can you expect to change the system. (The author here is a businessman in the crudest sense : not a very conventional career path in a lot of families).
My parents generation mostly got their jobs before the liberalisation of the economy in 1991. In those days, a lot of people dreamed of government jobs : stable, decent paying, and allows you to slack off. In spite of globalisation, we cannot expect their mindset to change a lot after they've fought so badly for jobs, right? This old mindset comes into play when they suggest us to go to college : they've seen decades of public sector employment, this new path (entrepreneurship) seems new, and they honestly believe they are trying to help you. There is no ill-will here.
I do agree one can still earn a good living without college in India too. But I feel what I said has a considerable effect in societal status of middle class people (most of whom are not extraordinary), and this in turn makes people want the college degree.
First they got me to go to a college - I really dint want to go - wanted to start "something on my own" - pretty weak argument - I din't have any idea.
Then they insisted to go to a Master - bcoz you need to get above the crowd - and I got into one of the best institutes - that made it even harder to dropout even when I knew after 6 months that I was wasting time
Then I jumped into entrepreneurship - And they insisted that I should get a job to get a hands-on experience. I gave up after 8 months - to their preferences - but this is when I started seeing success, but couldn't prove it to them. They didn't see it as "lasting"
Today, even at this moment, I can feel "the burden of giving up" because most people around me "insisted" on doing something I dint want to do. Ultimately, I am to blame.
10 years later - I am pretty successful in my career, with a job. My job is not "secure" as they mentioned. Its not satisfying and frequently frustrating. I know no "other job" can fix that ... I want to take the jump into entrepreneurship again - and I am doing whatever I can. And many times I wish I could undo that mistake I made 10 years back. It is seriously less riskier and easier to start young rather than doing it after you are a husband/father/etc.
As far as Education is concerned - That is important. But Degree! - I know most universities in India will give you degrees that don't speak for your talent/skill. It just shows that you passed your exams - and if you have extra money - some universities will give you a degree without you reading a single line.
I have been pondering about this for a while and have developed a hypothesis as to why Indian parents (and those from similar nations) tend to overvalue college degrees.
It is mostly due to the parents having low self-esteem. It comes down to the following two facts:
(1) While there are plenty of exceptionally capable young individuals like OP who have been proving everyone wrong, it usually takes a lot of parental skill and know-how to produce a wunderkind with social skills necessary to navigate the adult world in a foreign country.
(2) Parents who are recent immigrants (especially from poorer nations or from nations with significant cultural differences from the host nation) do not see themselves as capable of providing that know-how. Note that I did not say they can't provide it -- just that they do not see themselves as capable to (it turns out that more often than not they underestimate themselves).
Therefore, if you are a parent in a similar situation, it (often wrongly) appears to you that the only way your children stand a fighting chance is if you they spend as much time in school as possible. Then, of course, is the social pressure from family friends.
>>But, something he said really shocked me. It goes like this — “Oh, my sister’s kid is just like you. He’s got a $10,000 grant to go build a business and he’s in the 10th grade. My sister asked me what she should do. I told her to ask him to focus on finishing his college first before doing anything else.”
I don't find this particularly shocking. Without knowing the particulars of this kid, it sounds like pretty sane advice to a 16 year old - finish your education. School, strangely enough, gives people a lot of free time too, probably more than a full-time job does. It's possible to get an education, and dabble in entrepreneurship, and find friends who gel with you enough to make you might want to take on as partners. Someone with the aptitude for entrepreneurship will likely find a way to do all that while getting an education, but it's not irresponsible for a parent or guardian to encourage kids to focus on their education -- Just because some kids turn out to be successful dropout-entrepreneurs doesn't mean that dropping out at the first opportunity is a well-defined path to success.
Speaking as Pakistani in his early twenties, I can confirm that I get asked many of the same questions. I have a B.S. in Computer Science right now, but frequently get asked "When are you getting your MBA?" by family members. I hate how the question always implies that I will undoubtedly be pursuing one.
Since many of the comments here seem to miss the op's point:
He is saying that Indians seem to think that you need a degree to be successful, and discount the entrepreneur category by itself. He clearly thinks this is untrue and a counterproductive attitude, but there it is.
He is probably bringing it up because it is hard enough to be an entrepreneur without people constantly telling you that you will fail for one arbitrary reason or another.
By the way, this holds pretty much true in the United States -- most middle- and upper-class people think you need a degree to succeed.
But the entrepreneur category is probably given more respect. E.g. my friend's daughter is postponing college to work on her startup - she mostly getting very positive reinforcement all around.
Caste system it is all about qualification. Only trader community can trade. Only priest community can pray. Now hereditary qualification a has given way a little bit to official qualifications. Qualifications gets precedence over skill.
I really dislike articles that generalize based on race, religion, sex, etc. It's inappropriate and says nothing about individuals (all of whom are unique).
When you're researching a large nation with more than a billion people, you'll find a lot of people who have degrees and a lot of people who do not and a lot of people who like chewing gum and (again) a lot of people who do not.
The only thing the results should tell you is that there are a lot of people there. They say nothing about the average individual.
While individuals are different, valid and useful generalizations do exist. Growing up (and living in) Indian culture is different from growing up and living in the US, which is different from Japan, from Germany, etc.
I assume you are in the US. If you met an Indian person and evaluated his relationships and belief systems based on your American standards, you'd get a very misleading picture. You need to understand cultural context.
I have regrets on going to college when in 2001 I was a good coder and running a successful/profitable gaming oriented website/community. I was heavily discouraged from that path and it set me back a bit, when I got back into coding in 2005 I felt like a dinosaur. College was neat though.
Really loved the article Ashwin. So true. Specially the para:
For some reasons, Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without pedigree can get somewhere in life. It’s unbelievable that you can be a good programmer, successful businessman or great marketer without an {insert random college degree here}.
This is pretty much the way of the world, not just in India. The 'safe' route is to get a technical degree, work for a large corporation, and hopefully retire some day. Can't blame parents for wanting to shield their children from risk and potential failure...
[+] [-] r0h1n|12 years ago|reply
There are some half-truths though:
> For some reasons, Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without pedigree can get somewhere in life.
- Airtel, India's largest telecom company, was started by Sunil Mittal, armed with just a Bachelor of Arts degree from a second-rung university.
- Reliance Industries, India's largest private conglomerate, was started by Dhirubhai Ambani, had no college degree.
- The Zee TV group, one of India's largest media and entertainment conglomerates, was started by Subhash Chandra, who dropped out of school after class 12.
- There are many more multi-billion dollar enterprises like Adani and Sobha, that were founded by entrepreneurs without college degrees.
- Quickheal, India's largest anti-virus company, was founded by Kailash Katkar, never studied after school.
- Maxx Mobile, one of the leading low-cost phone makers in India was founded by Ajay Agarwal, a class 9 dropout.
I could go on.
By insisting that Indians "just can't deal with entrepreneurs without pedigree", the author is at best being disingenuous, or at worst slaying a straw man only to elevate his own achievements.
Finally, the stereotyping in the linkbait title, "The Indian and his insatiable..." doesn't help. As others have already pointed out, people (not just Indians, but around the world) make career/education choices in response to the financial/cultural environment around them.
To the average middle-class parents who grew up dealing with scarcity, low incomes, corruption and limited opportunities, the "multi-national job" represents stability, meritocracy, global opportunities and a respectable income.
There really is no reason to belittle them for their choices.
[+] [-] weland|12 years ago|reply
Folk statistics doesn't work the way you describe it. I know it's frustrating to watch, but it simply is that way.
[+] [-] BWStearns|12 years ago|reply
This is a specific example of a problem that every culture faces, which is cultural memes that have taken on the form of divine wisdom. Not everyone will be Mittal or Gates, in fact that population is a statistically non-existent one; that doesn't mean that dropping out of college to run a startup is the worst idea for any given person. Any culture shutting off that opportunity regardless of the specific case will cost itself in lost opportunities.
And as an aside on the specific content, I am not Indian, but reading this I couldn't help but remember my Indian friends' impressions of their aunts and uncles admonishing them for doing something insane like getting an advanced economic degree when they could have been a doctor or engineer.
[+] [-] badman_ting|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aortega|12 years ago|reply
You should, and in the way cite some statistics or else you would be falling for this common logical fallacy:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal
[+] [-] movingahead|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kamaal|12 years ago|reply
Secondly for any poor person in India, without any funding or support. No infrastructure, no exposure and having to fight a historic burden of poverty in the family. Not getting a college education means, the guy will eventually end up working at a tailor's shop or a garage or driver. Working whole life only to hope his son breaks of the cycle of poverty in the next generation.
Contrary to whatever you might think, you can't hard-work your way out of all problems all the time, I know that from personal experience. For a rich person a big financial failure means, a good decent chance to start up again. For a lower middle class person such a failure means, the end of life. Full Stop! Because the debts will drown you till you reach your grave.
The fact is for any lower middle/class and poor person. Getting a decent education is the easiest way to get a job, and then use that money to bootstrap their projects or start up.
You might not learn anything in a college, or a degree might not prep you up for prime time rock star development shops. But it will get you a job, buy you some financial freedom. And then you will have good enough time to iteratively learn and bootstrap your own business.
And beyond all, not everyone's family can write them a check to start something their teens or at any age. Most people live so hand to mouth, without a monthly salary they are pretty much bust!
Before criticizing some one please take into note the fact, they don't enjoy the same privileges and benefits as your do.
[+] [-] aortega|12 years ago|reply
In a huge 3rd world country, a degree is obviously useful. It's a gov-issued certification, a way to transfer trust from the person having the degree to the government. You don't need to trust the guy because the government says he can code. If you don't see why that's useful probably you never had 10000 applications sent to you.
The problem with degree inflation is the same as any other kind of inflation, it lowers (devaluates?) the value of the degree.
[+] [-] test001only|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DjangoReinhardt|12 years ago|reply
This does not take away anything from the author, his entrepreneurship and his overall success, mind you. However, the points made by ~kamaal and everyone else in this thread are extremely valid. They represent the part of India that is not so 'shining'.
I myself fall in the same category as the author. I chose to drop out of my Masters in Physics (with an elective in Astrophysics) and went to work as a Radio Show host for a commercial radio station. It was made possible only because of an invisible fallback option that my parents provided. Without it, I would probably be working away at a 9 to 5 job writing uninspired code for some company rather than sitting at home trying my hand at programming with Python.
Wait.
Oh, shit.
[+] [-] pnathan|12 years ago|reply
Source: Anecdotes and reading lots of news articles.
[+] [-] eriksank|12 years ago|reply
The traditional education system WAS the easiest way to get a job. Nowadays, it is the easiest way NOT to get a job.
Step 1: Download the 10 books x 4 (years) = 40 books of the average university degree. Step 2: Unless it's mathematics, it is just literature. Read it. Step 3: Sit the 10 x 4 exams at an online college.
In most developed countries, you have just managed NOT to spend 100 000 USD and NOT to waste 4 years of your life. All of this sounds useless, and it probably is equally useless, but at least it is not as time-consuming nor as expensive as the traditional alternative.
[+] [-] Daniel_Newby|12 years ago|reply
Debts? Does India not have limited-liability corporations? In rational countries, when your business idea fails, you just throw away the company and start another.
[+] [-] ashray|12 years ago|reply
I've been an entrepreneur (fairly successful) since I was 13. Yet my folks said I should get a college degree. I did get an engineering degree while 'entrepreneuring' at the same time. Does my degree help me in any direct way ? Nope. But there are several indirect benefits that a degree can get you first amongst which are that in general people think you are capable and well educated. I don't personally subscribe to this thought process but hey, we have to live in this world with everyone else, right ? My degree has opened doors for me and made some people take me more seriously. It has had zero practical contribution towards my endeavors but sometimes opening a door is all it takes. Not only people but even governments sometimes want certain degrees for certain categories of work permits (even if it's totally irrelevant to your work but a degree helps you). Then of course you have the benefits of an alumni network, etc etc. but those are really what you make of them because you can network otherwise as well. But a degree is a formal qualification - treated as such by society and the government. Does it mean you know more ? Probably not. Do people in general think you do ? Probably yes.
I'd still say that in the world today, a college degree matters a lot depending on who you are talking to. It won't matter if you're talking to me but there are a lot of people out there who care about whether you have one or not.
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] evincarofautumn|12 years ago|reply
I am not Indian, nor have I spent time in India, so I hope I am right in thinking that this speaks to present growing pains in Indian tech culture. I say growing pains because I think, and hope, that this valuation of pedigree over merit is coming to an end, as it is already at an end in parts of the U.S.
There are, if I may say so, a lot of bad Indian programmers. They’re bad not because they’re Indian, of course, but because they don’t really want to be programmers. It’s a career option. Engineering and business are things you study in school because they’re where money and prestige are. But studying in school and learning are entirely different things.
> The only way your son is ever going to succeed being an entrepreneur is by getting himself an MBA.
I want to believe that this, though it be the present, is not the future of Indian tech entrepreneurship.
[+] [-] auctiontheory|12 years ago|reply
I observed long ago that (in my Silicon Valley experience) white American programmers were always good programmers, because white Americans only become programmers if they really want to be programmers. The same cannot always be said of other nationalities and ethnic groups.
At least, that's been true until now. The glamorization of programming and the advent of 10-week programming cram courses may change things.
[+] [-] rayiner|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Loughla|12 years ago|reply
When I was in college, construction was a secure path to middle class, and engineering was something reserved for folks who wanted to make 300k, but work 80 hours a week, a decidedly not-middle-class work ethic.
[+] [-] stephenaturner|12 years ago|reply
And I'm kind of sick of the US-centric view that all college degrees cost $100,000+ -- many high quality degrees in other western countries cost as little as 10-20% of this figure (and often are paid for in a deferred payment scheme). As with so many things (like healthcare) it's just another area the US seems to have gone insane with.
[+] [-] randomdata|12 years ago|reply
It doesn't seem out of line to me. The average high school graduate in Canada will earn about $30,000 per year during the typical age one goes to university. Assuming a degree takes four years, that is a cost of $120,000 right there, ignoring any other fees that may be associated with enrolment.
[+] [-] shayonj|12 years ago|reply
I hope students (especially) take this post in the right gesture. Dropping out is not the best solution always. Doesn't work for everyone. Its not cool to dropout because Zuck, Gates and Jobs did. You "have to have" a strong reason why university isnt the best option for you.
+1 otherwise for the post. Good to know you had the support you needed. Doesn't happen with everyone. All the best ;)
[+] [-] ateevchopra|12 years ago|reply
It is really a great place where you can meet new talented people, learn how to work in a team. Its a place where you can have fights, fall and learn again.
It is the place where you learn to present your Idea by presenting it among your friends first. They can help if you lack something. This kind of things are usually not very easy in the outside world. Because the outside world is busy competing with you.
You meet so many types of people that you learn to categories the people. What kind of people are A Grade and what kind are B grade. This helps you to when you will start hiring.
You say going to college is not worth it. Well another big problem with our thinking is that we think that college is just to learn the "courses". Well its not. Its a lot more than that. I am also a student in one of the most reputable colleges in India, but the way I think, learning is just a state of mind, place doesn't matter. I myself use to think that i have wasted my 4 years learning computer science, that I could have learnt all this in just a year and a half, but today as I am trying to build my startup, I understand that this all connect dots. Even I am not interested in grades at all, but i never stop working on my startup.
So, As I see it, college is like a big sand ground, where you can fall, again and again, and learn to fight. And all this without hurting yourself.
[+] [-] anupshinde|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thansharp|12 years ago|reply
You want to become a doctor? Too bad you don't have an MBBS. We don't care whether you decided to become one only during college, and are willing to spend a few extra years catching up.
Except for diplomas (by which I mean qualifications like CA, which you theoretically could get without attending classes at a college) doesn't place a prerequisite on having a degree. Every master's program I have come across requires a bachelor's degree. Some are more flexible, admitting degrees outside the relevant fields. But most are not.
The reason is pretty simple : In a country like India where anything good suffers a big shortage, people generally prefer to stick to rules, creating many false negatives. This is because no one wants to take up liability in case a false negative crops up. "I followed all the regulations and suggestions," they say.
So anything that involves an expected, and common path ends up needing college degrees as prerequisites. For the Middle Class which cannot afford to wait out a few years, they have no choice but to toe the line. Only if you have any capital (and in India, connections) to begin with, can you expect to change the system. (The author here is a businessman in the crudest sense : not a very conventional career path in a lot of families).
My parents generation mostly got their jobs before the liberalisation of the economy in 1991. In those days, a lot of people dreamed of government jobs : stable, decent paying, and allows you to slack off. In spite of globalisation, we cannot expect their mindset to change a lot after they've fought so badly for jobs, right? This old mindset comes into play when they suggest us to go to college : they've seen decades of public sector employment, this new path (entrepreneurship) seems new, and they honestly believe they are trying to help you. There is no ill-will here.
I do agree one can still earn a good living without college in India too. But I feel what I said has a considerable effect in societal status of middle class people (most of whom are not extraordinary), and this in turn makes people want the college degree.
[+] [-] anupshinde|12 years ago|reply
Then I jumped into entrepreneurship - And they insisted that I should get a job to get a hands-on experience. I gave up after 8 months - to their preferences - but this is when I started seeing success, but couldn't prove it to them. They didn't see it as "lasting"
Today, even at this moment, I can feel "the burden of giving up" because most people around me "insisted" on doing something I dint want to do. Ultimately, I am to blame.
10 years later - I am pretty successful in my career, with a job. My job is not "secure" as they mentioned. Its not satisfying and frequently frustrating. I know no "other job" can fix that ... I want to take the jump into entrepreneurship again - and I am doing whatever I can. And many times I wish I could undo that mistake I made 10 years back. It is seriously less riskier and easier to start young rather than doing it after you are a husband/father/etc.
As far as Education is concerned - That is important. But Degree! - I know most universities in India will give you degrees that don't speak for your talent/skill. It just shows that you passed your exams - and if you have extra money - some universities will give you a degree without you reading a single line.
[+] [-] escherba|12 years ago|reply
It is mostly due to the parents having low self-esteem. It comes down to the following two facts:
(1) While there are plenty of exceptionally capable young individuals like OP who have been proving everyone wrong, it usually takes a lot of parental skill and know-how to produce a wunderkind with social skills necessary to navigate the adult world in a foreign country.
(2) Parents who are recent immigrants (especially from poorer nations or from nations with significant cultural differences from the host nation) do not see themselves as capable of providing that know-how. Note that I did not say they can't provide it -- just that they do not see themselves as capable to (it turns out that more often than not they underestimate themselves).
Therefore, if you are a parent in a similar situation, it (often wrongly) appears to you that the only way your children stand a fighting chance is if you they spend as much time in school as possible. Then, of course, is the social pressure from family friends.
[+] [-] alphakappa|12 years ago|reply
I don't find this particularly shocking. Without knowing the particulars of this kid, it sounds like pretty sane advice to a 16 year old - finish your education. School, strangely enough, gives people a lot of free time too, probably more than a full-time job does. It's possible to get an education, and dabble in entrepreneurship, and find friends who gel with you enough to make you might want to take on as partners. Someone with the aptitude for entrepreneurship will likely find a way to do all that while getting an education, but it's not irresponsible for a parent or guardian to encourage kids to focus on their education -- Just because some kids turn out to be successful dropout-entrepreneurs doesn't mean that dropping out at the first opportunity is a well-defined path to success.
[+] [-] bilalq|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Isamu|12 years ago|reply
He is saying that Indians seem to think that you need a degree to be successful, and discount the entrepreneur category by itself. He clearly thinks this is untrue and a counterproductive attitude, but there it is.
He is probably bringing it up because it is hard enough to be an entrepreneur without people constantly telling you that you will fail for one arbitrary reason or another.
By the way, this holds pretty much true in the United States -- most middle- and upper-class people think you need a degree to succeed.
But the entrepreneur category is probably given more respect. E.g. my friend's daughter is postponing college to work on her startup - she mostly getting very positive reinforcement all around.
[+] [-] Nano2rad|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 16s|12 years ago|reply
When you're researching a large nation with more than a billion people, you'll find a lot of people who have degrees and a lot of people who do not and a lot of people who like chewing gum and (again) a lot of people who do not.
The only thing the results should tell you is that there are a lot of people there. They say nothing about the average individual.
[+] [-] auctiontheory|12 years ago|reply
I assume you are in the US. If you met an Indian person and evaluated his relationships and belief systems based on your American standards, you'd get a very misleading picture. You need to understand cultural context.
[+] [-] whistlerbrk|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ashray|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jalan|12 years ago|reply
For some reasons, Indians just can’t deal with the fact that someone without pedigree can get somewhere in life. It’s unbelievable that you can be a good programmer, successful businessman or great marketer without an {insert random college degree here}.
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Mikeb85|12 years ago|reply