Stories like this seem to get worse as the years go by post 9/11.
If I could give one piece of advice to foreigners for the next 20 or 30 years as it relates to America: stay out, we are not free here, the walls - both digital and physical - are going up to control us. The police state is becoming more aggressive, violent, and omnipresent. Save yourselves, pursue freedom and happiness, you won't find such here any longer. There are better countries for that future.
I think this should be etched into the Statue of Liberty as a warning. Since it doesn't represent a beacon of liberty any longer, it might as well serve a purpose.
What I remember from my visit to NYC in 2008 is that all tourist attractions had one police check point (metallic / bomb detectors) and the statue of liberty had it two times.
I found it quite ironic.
Edit: Another funny experience was me being stopped by security guards when I tried to take a picture of the Federal Reserve building when standing in front of it, only to be handed a brochure with on the cover a picture of pretty much the same angle.
I agree with your analysis. If one is so keen to visit America - welcome to Canada! :) Optionally, wait until Stephen Harper is ousted :)
Also, a little reminder. It is the American citizenry that made the US "a beacon of liberty" in the first place. And I believe it can do it again. Do you say it will take 20-30 years to happen?
Outrageous. Really, it is - as an American, I'm ashamed to read stuff like this.
However: does it really belong on HN? It's not germane to the stated topics of the site. And it is not "gratifying one's intellectual curiosity" - quite the opposite, it's a story that makes you mad without really telling you anything you didn't know already.
The article reports, "It was her 13th time to visit the US in a span of more than two and a half decades."
All that is reported here sounds like an aberration, an officer who mistook the situation and abused his authority. For context, the United States continues to be second only to France as a destination for international tourist visits,
and just last week my wife and I enjoyed a meet-up in another part of the United States with several of her high school classmates from back when she lived in Taiwan, who arrived from Taiwan, Malaysia, and China, all without incident. When peaceful, hassle-free visits number in the millions per year, a few visits that are abuses of the process will certainly make news, but they don't appear to discourage tourism to the United States over the long haul.
> For context, the United States continues to be second only to France as a destination for international tourist visits
France is also a way smaller country than the US. If these numbers are correct and you bundled together the whole Schengen area instead (as it has a common border), it would massively dwarf the US.
Who can tell? The rank of the US for tourism might be high but could be higher. The same applies to France where I am from. It's ok to be complete assholes with tourists, to charge them 3x times the standard rate, to restrain from learning english, because we are ranked #1 anyway.
And we don't hear about the flip-side, which is the fact that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, overstay their visitor visas every year. It's not fair to citizens nor is it fair to those going through the legal process of immigration. I work in immigration and was shocked myself at just how prevalent this is. Many work professional jobs without issue, even though they have no authorization to do so, living here for decades on an expired visitor visa. It's a much bigger problem than people crossing the border without inspection.
Unfortunately we've hearing way too many of these stories over the past several years to the point where it they no longer sound like "aberrations", but systemic abuses.
Unfortunately they aren't backed by hard data... because CBP/TS/HS aren't wont to publish stats on how many people they've needlessly and humiliated (or worse) at border checkpoints. But taken together with recent trends which we do have hard data for (for example, the ACLU's stats in the phenomenal expansion of detention facilities for immigrants suspected of illegal entry... and the abusive practices that transpire within) suggest that very disturbing trends are taking hold.
All that is reported here sounds like an aberration, ...
I can see why she might have been flagged for closer investigation: someone from the Phillipines with lots of family in the U.S. is probably a high risk of overstaying, but it sounds like the way it was conducted was totally out of line.
Things like this really scary me, as a simple startup guy who wants to visit SV some day. I'm reading stories like this more often unfortunately and I'm starting to think if I really want to go to US. Getting a visa in Poland is also not very comfortable process since you've to give all information about your life to US authorities and still I've no guarantee that I'll be able to enter US.
Just be careful about drawing too broad a conclusion from stories like this. They're certainly bad events and the effort should be to make sure they never happen. But they are the only stories about entering the US that get reported on because they're news...and the uneventful instances are not. This is particularly true if you get your news from an aggregation site like HN where there is a certain level of interest in these stories and so they're even more likely to be reported on here.
Millions of people travel to and within the US every year without incident, what gets reported is the admittedly terrible sounding times when that's not the case. Chances are very good that you'd have no problems.
The thing is, no one writes a story about the time that they exchanged twenty words with the border agent, and then went on their way. Why would they? It's not interesting and it's not news.
The only stories that tend to get written are the extraordinary ones. Unfortunately, it's unlikely that a border official is going to have the opportunity to do something "extraordinary" for someone unless he saves a life with the Heimlich or something like that.
So the "I HAD A HORRIBLE TIME AT THE BORDER!" are the ones that tend to get written up and passed around. No one writes up the hundreds of millions of routine, boring border crossings.
This happens all the time, and it's a disgrace. It's also the reason why I haven't visited the US for more than a decade. The last time I went through this was before 9/11 and I can only assume it has gotten even worse since then.
Meh. I visit America relatively frequently and I can't remember the last time I spent longer than 60 seconds at the US Border Control (excluding the queue which can be a bit long sometimes). And you know, the border control officers were always very polite and professional with me. This is a silly reason to not visit America.
Well. I actually do like America, I mean, which programmer would not? But during my various stays there, people have been murdered in front of my house, naked people have been thrown out of cars onto the pavement in front of me, bank roberies happened right across the street of me.
The US is the most barbaric and uncivilised of the western countries. That might come as a surprise to some.
Okay. I am born and raised in the US and have lived here all my life. Not only have I never seen anything you described, I can't really think of a time I've even witnessed anything particularly bad happen or even had "bad things" happen to me. Not a car broken into, not a home, not luggage, no murders, not even a scream! And I'm dark and look Middle Eastern but have never faced racism (grew up in the whitest parts of the south/southwest) or even a police officer who was anything but polite. For a few months, I lived in one of the adored "utopian paradises" frequently praised on the internet, and was "randomly selected" for a bag search every single time I flew domestically.
Yes, I guess I'm fortunate, and I'm sorry bad things happened to you, and there are plenty of problems here, but, there are 330 million people in this country, most were either born abroad or their parents or grandparents were, and we all get along pretty fucking well.
Where are you staying?!? I've lived in and around NYC my whole life and never had any experiences even remotely like that. Perhaps you need to choose nicer hotels? Every country has some bad areas.
> Well. I actually do like America, I mean, which programmer would not?
? Because of being compensated relatively well? Because you can work for big tech companies? That doesn't sound enough to outweigh the negative experiences you've faced, at least for me.
I wouldn't shed any tears if programming stopped revolving around the US to such a degree.
They do this to me regularly, and I'm a US-born US citizen. My median time for being arrested and held with no food or water or use of a communications device is around six hours.
...all because I politely exercise my fifth amendment rights.
This happens about 50% of the time I enter the country. I live abroad so I enter the US about a half-dozen times per year. I think my file is big enough now that they know not to ask me anything.
> We pledge to cordially greet and welcome you to the United States.
> We pledge to treat you with courtesy, dignity, and respect.
> We pledge to explain the CBP process to you.
> We pledge to have a supervisor listen to your comments.
> We pledge to accept and respond to your comments in written, verbal, or electronic form.
> We pledge to provide reasonable assistance due to delay or disability.
I often wonder which of these "threatening me with prosecution for interfering with a border control point", "lying to me by saying I'm legally required to answer their questions", "refusing to tell me the name of the city I'm standing in" and "throwing me out of the border control point (into the USA) on the highway in Vermont in February in a snowstorm" fall under.
(It's the only time I've ever had to hitchhike in my life, as it'd been hours since they'd sent the Montreal-Boston bus on without me.)
The one border cop in Detroit told me, after coming through the tunnel from Windsor, that "[she's] just doing her job, making sure the country is safe, and that [she's] there to prove [I'm] innocent and get [me] on my way quickly." I waited until I was given the all clear to leave the building before mentioning to her that "We're Americans, and this is America. I am innocent until I am proven guilty, and those representing our country would do best to remember that."
Despite my opinions about the lot of them, I am calm, polite, professional, and courteous in my interactions with them. They respond in the most unprofessional manner possible, short of physically assaulting me. They've cost me thousands of dollars and caused me to miss important business meetings. (Before you say it: it's not my fault for exercising my basic rights or not "just answering the simple questions" that I missed my meetings. I'd have left except for the fact that men with guns on their belt arrested me after I'd already given them my passport and they'd searched my possessions.)
Fuck the police.
PS: Their invasive searches of my belongings were clearly punitive, too. I never travel with contraband but had I been doing so, they would not have found any of it. They were clearly just fucking with someone who had the nerve to tell them that his travel plans inside and outside of the US were and are "none of their business".
What fifth amendment rights? Was someone asking you to testify against yourself at trial?
And CBP does have the right to ask who you are and where you're going when you cross the border. It is their business, and has been since the 18th century.
EDIT: I should clarify because I'm being somewhat glib. First, 4th amendment does not apply to routine border searches, and it was the First Congress, containing many of the framers, that instituted routine border searches: http://blog.cybersecuritylaw.us/2013/09/23/david-house-dhs-a....
These are both rooted in the long-standing right of sovereign entities to defend their borders.
Third, I'm not aware of any Supreme Court case that says you can't be compelled to answer questions at the border. Currently, there is simply no law compelling you to answer questions, but it's not clear such a law would be unconstitutional if it existed. So there is nothing wrong with CBP asking, and nothing wrong with you refusing to answer, and nothing wrong with CBP giving you extra scrutiny, within the limits of the 4th amendment, for refusing to answer the questions.
Fourth, I'm in the camp that thinks Miranda shouldn't even apply to questioning at the border. See: http://www.volokh.com/2013/06/17/do-you-have-a-right-to-rema.... The 5th amendment's text is simple: "No person... shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself." The historical practice and plain meaning of this text was, before the 1960's, that you couldn't force a defendant to testify against himself in a criminal proceeding. This was a specific response to the practice of the Star Chamber in England. It's a pretty big stretch to say that this should limit the police's ability to ask you questions, especially at the border where the state's interest in security is relatively stronger.
There's this theory in psychotherapy called transference. Basically if you experience crappy situations as a child in which you are effectively powerless, then in later years similar situations end up provoking the same feelings - you transfer the past onto the present.
I have no way to know if this is what's going on here, but in my own life, understanding things from this perspective has been a remarkably powerful tool for generating insight and change. I have had (and continue to have) no shortage of conflicts with authority in my life, including ridiculous abuse from the cops, but it did get significantly better once I started directing my anger at my parents, who for me were the original offenders.
Just an alternative perspective out of left field.
Someone else (jcromartie) posted the following comment and it was downvoted to dead status. What is the reason? I was looking forward to replies/comments on this post.
> There are exceptions to the 4th and 5th at border crossings. The officials at international border crossings are permitted to ask for basic customs and immigration information, under the Commerce Clause. Any inquiry or search or declaration beyond establishing your legal right to enter the country, or what you are bringing with you, is indeed protected by the 4th and 5th.
There's a border court where you can appeal the idiotic decisions of any customs agent. The trick is finding out when they are in session, which is once a week at the Canada/US border but all points of entry have this same court but it is hardly advertised. I overturned numerous bans from entering the US, in fact the judge each time rubber stamped me in
I'd love to see a site describing what your rights are while entering the US, both for citizens and non-citizens. Is there something like the "don't talk to police" video that describes what you're legally compelled to do or not do? Is there a guide covering how to secure your electronic devices, etc?
I'm confident enough of my rights when stopped by a cop inside the US, but from so many stories like this it really seems like we have no rights when crossing the border, citizen or not. If I knew what my rights actually were I'd feel better about asserting them.
...all because I politely exercise my fifth amendment rights.
What specifically does this mean in the context of a border crossing? It's not like you're under arrest there.
Do you mean that you tell the USCIS official that you aren't going to say anything about where you traveled or why? Or where you live and work in the country?
Some examples of what you say to them would help us understand better what is going on in your interactions with the border agents.
----
Edit: Just saw this: They were clearly just fucking with someone who had the nerve to tell them that his travel plans inside and outside of the US were and are "none of their business".
It's somewhat less surprising that you stand out in a negative way when you tell the border agent who's asking about your travel plans that those plans are "none of their business".
so your bullshit provocation works, congratulations. what are you complaining about, your goal is achieved, smugness and superiority for you. you poor victim.
Unfortunately, refusing to talk to the police makes it vastly more probable that you are involved in criminal activity. So, while you are perfectly within your rights, the police are doing their job to regard you with an extra level of suspicion. To do otherwise would be incompetence.
Being a white male I've passed fairly fast through US borders when I visit. But people who've travelled on business with me who are non-whites have been severely delayed and eventually meet up at the hotel hours later with harrowing stories. From my samples I'd say that the border agents routinely racially profile.
I think it's unfortunate that there are false positives. On the other hand, we are free to complain about our government, and that is fortunate.
But to those of you complaining, are you sure this isn't just another anecdote that supports your stereotypes? Or is our anti-authoritarian fetish getting in the way of the data (or lack there of) again?
Have any of us worked with a effective and practical system that never has false positives? Are you unhappy with the rate of false positives? Do you even know what that rate is? Are you saying you would you rather have more false negatives and fewer false positives? Surely anecdotal evidence is biased towards nasty false positives: we don't read about stories when someone triggers suspicion and is reasonably investigate before being released, but are you sure it never happens?
I'm not saying that I think it's acceptable to be wrong sometimes, or to treat people this way. But I'm also not convinced by anyone who doesn't have answers to the above questions.
"The immigration officer then returned to the room and accused Grande of being a liar. He claimed that he talked to her aunt, who allegedly told him that Grande will take care of her as a caregiver."
I've seen the same up close. Seems it's a standard tactic: when someone is suspected of immigration transgression, lie about the suspect's prior statements to others; reason is to throw the person off-guard, increasing the chance they'll say something actionable. This is very effective, and VERY disturbing to the suspect. The guards are under no obligation to tell the truth, and use lying as a standard tactic...but anything YOU say can and will be used against you, with lying to a federal official being one of the worst things you can do.
More and more people are reluctant to go to the US for this. People who undergo such treatment should be compensated. This would be the fair price for security and maybe would focus the security effort on real threats.
overall, i am reminded of how sad i am to be a US citizen when i hear these stories. i have been harrassed by security personnel on a few occasions but have managed to avoid being stuck in the "private screening" room. the irony of having someone who is of puertorican decent and does not speak english as their first language giving me shit when coming into the US from the caribbean is not lost on me.
unfortunately, the characterization of people in the US being (1) ignorant, (2) rude and (3) obnoxious is rather accurate. the USG should make an effort to have competent people manning the border since it makes the US look _awful_ when stuff like this happens. obama, or whoever is president, should make this shit a priority since we look like a bunch of fucking jerks when it comes to CBP/ICE.
Am I the only one who would like to hear the other side of the story? We're only hearing her side.
Stories like this are beyond useless because they don't present all the facts. It's a sensationalist one-sided narrative of what happened. Without the other side's version of events, we cannot look at the story critically and evaluate the merits of both sides.
Yeah, well, if the CBP opened a dialogue about their side of the story I'm sure we would listen to them. A big part of the problem is that the authorities do not talk honestly about their view of the proceedings. The TSA at least makes gestures in that direction, but CBP not so much.
(An honest view from their side would talk about subjects like "What percentile of our employees are competent to do their jobs? How much would it cost to improve this?")
Don't know what to say. This is just beyond infuriating:
The immigration officer then returned to the room and accused Grande of being a liar. He claimed that he talked to her aunt, who allegedly told him that Grande will take care of her as a caregiver.
She said the immigration officer's allegations are not true because her aunt didn't even know she was arriving in the US.
"While Officer Mam kept on repeating his questions about why I was in the US, a fellow officer by the name of Chang, joined and shouted, calling me a liar. He even searched my purse where I had wedding cards (with money) for my daughter and future son-in-law, and a birthday card for Joshua (also with money) and other stuff. He scattered all the items in my purse on the table, asking why they should believe me, when my aunt, according to him, seems to be the honest one," Grande said.
To be honest, if the choice is between that and TSA, I'll take that every day. So they smuggle drugs and tobacco: big deal! With better policies, those activities wouldn't even exist anyway. Real policing is done with long-running investigations and intelligence on organised crime, not with coppers doing data-entry from passports.
As far as I can tell, the only source for this story is an unverified email sent by Carina Yonzon Grande to local (Phillippine) news outlets. While can't believe someone would make the story up from whole cloth, I suspect there are important details which may have been altered or omitted.
I think it would be prudent to reserve judgement until more information is available.
so where are the other sources confirming this? right now there is a single source of info, which is the woman in question. stories like this are very emotional and very often not exactly following the truth. HN gobbles them up, especially those readers who rarely travel themselves.
i am deeply skeptical about this account. this year alone i have entered the US about 10 times, coming from European and Asian destinations. not a US citizen. I have never witnessed any impolite behavior by CBP personnel towards passengers - and I was standing in the blue line for hours with them.
using the very specific term TNT is very strange for non-filipino officers.
if you worked in retail this reminds me of certain customers from hell that complained to your manager and told a story that was outrageously one sided. all the while having been openly abusive to you.
Many, many Filipinos travel to the USA without incident, and many emigrate here, get their green card, and become US citizens with no problems. But I know sad, unfortunate incidents like this happen, and they make me embarrassed for my country. The agents that did this ought to be held accountable and fired. There is simply no excuse for this woman being treated this way. Americans are a very welcoming and friendly people, but I know the Federal bureaucracy is not.
But why is it on Hacker News? And why did the submitter use the term Pinay? People barely know how to spell Filipino, so I don't expect them to know Pinay either.
[+] [-] adventured|12 years ago|reply
If I could give one piece of advice to foreigners for the next 20 or 30 years as it relates to America: stay out, we are not free here, the walls - both digital and physical - are going up to control us. The police state is becoming more aggressive, violent, and omnipresent. Save yourselves, pursue freedom and happiness, you won't find such here any longer. There are better countries for that future.
I think this should be etched into the Statue of Liberty as a warning. Since it doesn't represent a beacon of liberty any longer, it might as well serve a purpose.
[+] [-] peterjancelis|12 years ago|reply
I found it quite ironic.
Edit: Another funny experience was me being stopped by security guards when I tried to take a picture of the Federal Reserve building when standing in front of it, only to be handed a brochure with on the cover a picture of pretty much the same angle.
[+] [-] znowi|12 years ago|reply
Also, a little reminder. It is the American citizenry that made the US "a beacon of liberty" in the first place. And I believe it can do it again. Do you say it will take 20-30 years to happen?
[+] [-] isxek|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] davidw|12 years ago|reply
However: does it really belong on HN? It's not germane to the stated topics of the site. And it is not "gratifying one's intellectual curiosity" - quite the opposite, it's a story that makes you mad without really telling you anything you didn't know already.
[+] [-] tokenadult|12 years ago|reply
All that is reported here sounds like an aberration, an officer who mistook the situation and abused his authority. For context, the United States continues to be second only to France as a destination for international tourist visits,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings
and just last week my wife and I enjoyed a meet-up in another part of the United States with several of her high school classmates from back when she lived in Taiwan, who arrived from Taiwan, Malaysia, and China, all without incident. When peaceful, hassle-free visits number in the millions per year, a few visits that are abuses of the process will certainly make news, but they don't appear to discourage tourism to the United States over the long haul.
[+] [-] kalleboo|12 years ago|reply
France is also a way smaller country than the US. If these numbers are correct and you bundled together the whole Schengen area instead (as it has a common border), it would massively dwarf the US.
[+] [-] kubiiii|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joonix|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bonemachine|12 years ago|reply
Unfortunately they aren't backed by hard data... because CBP/TS/HS aren't wont to publish stats on how many people they've needlessly and humiliated (or worse) at border checkpoints. But taken together with recent trends which we do have hard data for (for example, the ACLU's stats in the phenomenal expansion of detention facilities for immigrants suspected of illegal entry... and the abusive practices that transpire within) suggest that very disturbing trends are taking hold.
All that is reported here sounds like an aberration, ...
[+] [-] army|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Amadou|12 years ago|reply
This sort of thing is the inevitable result of giving people responsibility without accountability.
[+] [-] pkrefta|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rainsford|12 years ago|reply
Millions of people travel to and within the US every year without incident, what gets reported is the admittedly terrible sounding times when that's not the case. Chances are very good that you'd have no problems.
[+] [-] theorique|12 years ago|reply
The only stories that tend to get written are the extraordinary ones. Unfortunately, it's unlikely that a border official is going to have the opportunity to do something "extraordinary" for someone unless he saves a life with the Heimlich or something like that.
So the "I HAD A HORRIBLE TIME AT THE BORDER!" are the ones that tend to get written up and passed around. No one writes up the hundreds of millions of routine, boring border crossings.
[+] [-] Tepix|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DrJokepu|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tokenadult|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] auggierose|12 years ago|reply
The US is the most barbaric and uncivilised of the western countries. That might come as a surprise to some.
[+] [-] joonix|12 years ago|reply
Yes, I guess I'm fortunate, and I'm sorry bad things happened to you, and there are plenty of problems here, but, there are 330 million people in this country, most were either born abroad or their parents or grandparents were, and we all get along pretty fucking well.
[+] [-] DougWebb|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Dewie|12 years ago|reply
? Because of being compensated relatively well? Because you can work for big tech companies? That doesn't sound enough to outweigh the negative experiences you've faced, at least for me.
I wouldn't shed any tears if programming stopped revolving around the US to such a degree.
[+] [-] sneak|12 years ago|reply
...all because I politely exercise my fifth amendment rights.
This happens about 50% of the time I enter the country. I live abroad so I enter the US about a half-dozen times per year. I think my file is big enough now that they know not to ask me anything.
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/customerservice/pledge_tra...
> CBP’s Pledge to Travelers
> We pledge to cordially greet and welcome you to the United States.
> We pledge to treat you with courtesy, dignity, and respect.
> We pledge to explain the CBP process to you.
> We pledge to have a supervisor listen to your comments.
> We pledge to accept and respond to your comments in written, verbal, or electronic form.
> We pledge to provide reasonable assistance due to delay or disability.
I often wonder which of these "threatening me with prosecution for interfering with a border control point", "lying to me by saying I'm legally required to answer their questions", "refusing to tell me the name of the city I'm standing in" and "throwing me out of the border control point (into the USA) on the highway in Vermont in February in a snowstorm" fall under.
(It's the only time I've ever had to hitchhike in my life, as it'd been hours since they'd sent the Montreal-Boston bus on without me.)
The one border cop in Detroit told me, after coming through the tunnel from Windsor, that "[she's] just doing her job, making sure the country is safe, and that [she's] there to prove [I'm] innocent and get [me] on my way quickly." I waited until I was given the all clear to leave the building before mentioning to her that "We're Americans, and this is America. I am innocent until I am proven guilty, and those representing our country would do best to remember that."
Despite my opinions about the lot of them, I am calm, polite, professional, and courteous in my interactions with them. They respond in the most unprofessional manner possible, short of physically assaulting me. They've cost me thousands of dollars and caused me to miss important business meetings. (Before you say it: it's not my fault for exercising my basic rights or not "just answering the simple questions" that I missed my meetings. I'd have left except for the fact that men with guns on their belt arrested me after I'd already given them my passport and they'd searched my possessions.)
Fuck the police.
PS: Their invasive searches of my belongings were clearly punitive, too. I never travel with contraband but had I been doing so, they would not have found any of it. They were clearly just fucking with someone who had the nerve to tell them that his travel plans inside and outside of the US were and are "none of their business".
[+] [-] rayiner|12 years ago|reply
And CBP does have the right to ask who you are and where you're going when you cross the border. It is their business, and has been since the 18th century.
EDIT: I should clarify because I'm being somewhat glib. First, 4th amendment does not apply to routine border searches, and it was the First Congress, containing many of the framers, that instituted routine border searches: http://blog.cybersecuritylaw.us/2013/09/23/david-house-dhs-a....
Second, while the Supreme Court has not ruled on the issue, the various circuits have held that 5th amendment does apply, but Miranda warnings are not required: http://fourthamendment.com/blog/index.php?blog=1&title=e_d_n....
These are both rooted in the long-standing right of sovereign entities to defend their borders.
Third, I'm not aware of any Supreme Court case that says you can't be compelled to answer questions at the border. Currently, there is simply no law compelling you to answer questions, but it's not clear such a law would be unconstitutional if it existed. So there is nothing wrong with CBP asking, and nothing wrong with you refusing to answer, and nothing wrong with CBP giving you extra scrutiny, within the limits of the 4th amendment, for refusing to answer the questions.
Fourth, I'm in the camp that thinks Miranda shouldn't even apply to questioning at the border. See: http://www.volokh.com/2013/06/17/do-you-have-a-right-to-rema.... The 5th amendment's text is simple: "No person... shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself." The historical practice and plain meaning of this text was, before the 1960's, that you couldn't force a defendant to testify against himself in a criminal proceeding. This was a specific response to the practice of the Star Chamber in England. It's a pretty big stretch to say that this should limit the police's ability to ask you questions, especially at the border where the state's interest in security is relatively stronger.
[+] [-] foobarbazqux|12 years ago|reply
There's this theory in psychotherapy called transference. Basically if you experience crappy situations as a child in which you are effectively powerless, then in later years similar situations end up provoking the same feelings - you transfer the past onto the present.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference
I have no way to know if this is what's going on here, but in my own life, understanding things from this perspective has been a remarkably powerful tool for generating insight and change. I have had (and continue to have) no shortage of conflicts with authority in my life, including ridiculous abuse from the cops, but it did get significantly better once I started directing my anger at my parents, who for me were the original offenders.
Just an alternative perspective out of left field.
[+] [-] rcavezza|12 years ago|reply
> There are exceptions to the 4th and 5th at border crossings. The officials at international border crossings are permitted to ask for basic customs and immigration information, under the Commerce Clause. Any inquiry or search or declaration beyond establishing your legal right to enter the country, or what you are bringing with you, is indeed protected by the 4th and 5th.
[+] [-] dobbsbob|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] a_traveler|12 years ago|reply
I'm confident enough of my rights when stopped by a cop inside the US, but from so many stories like this it really seems like we have no rights when crossing the border, citizen or not. If I knew what my rights actually were I'd feel better about asserting them.
[+] [-] theorique|12 years ago|reply
What specifically does this mean in the context of a border crossing? It's not like you're under arrest there.
Do you mean that you tell the USCIS official that you aren't going to say anything about where you traveled or why? Or where you live and work in the country?
Some examples of what you say to them would help us understand better what is going on in your interactions with the border agents.
----
Edit: Just saw this: They were clearly just fucking with someone who had the nerve to tell them that his travel plans inside and outside of the US were and are "none of their business".
It's somewhat less surprising that you stand out in a negative way when you tell the border agent who's asking about your travel plans that those plans are "none of their business".
[+] [-] pinaceae|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] codex|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] willvarfar|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmilloy|12 years ago|reply
But to those of you complaining, are you sure this isn't just another anecdote that supports your stereotypes? Or is our anti-authoritarian fetish getting in the way of the data (or lack there of) again?
Have any of us worked with a effective and practical system that never has false positives? Are you unhappy with the rate of false positives? Do you even know what that rate is? Are you saying you would you rather have more false negatives and fewer false positives? Surely anecdotal evidence is biased towards nasty false positives: we don't read about stories when someone triggers suspicion and is reasonably investigate before being released, but are you sure it never happens?
I'm not saying that I think it's acceptable to be wrong sometimes, or to treat people this way. But I'm also not convinced by anyone who doesn't have answers to the above questions.
[+] [-] nailer|12 years ago|reply
What is a 'TNT'?
[+] [-] Maxious|12 years ago|reply
> "Tago Nang Tago" It's a filipino thats an illegal alien. Translates to "hides and hides" (from the I.N.S.)
[+] [-] ionforce|12 years ago|reply
Hoy, TNT ka? Hey, are you an undocumented immigrant?
It's slang.
[+] [-] nols|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ctdonath|12 years ago|reply
I've seen the same up close. Seems it's a standard tactic: when someone is suspected of immigration transgression, lie about the suspect's prior statements to others; reason is to throw the person off-guard, increasing the chance they'll say something actionable. This is very effective, and VERY disturbing to the suspect. The guards are under no obligation to tell the truth, and use lying as a standard tactic...but anything YOU say can and will be used against you, with lying to a federal official being one of the worst things you can do.
[+] [-] kubiiii|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] conformal|12 years ago|reply
unfortunately, the characterization of people in the US being (1) ignorant, (2) rude and (3) obnoxious is rather accurate. the USG should make an effort to have competent people manning the border since it makes the US look _awful_ when stuff like this happens. obama, or whoever is president, should make this shit a priority since we look like a bunch of fucking jerks when it comes to CBP/ICE.
[+] [-] mahranch|12 years ago|reply
Stories like this are beyond useless because they don't present all the facts. It's a sensationalist one-sided narrative of what happened. Without the other side's version of events, we cannot look at the story critically and evaluate the merits of both sides.
[+] [-] waqf|12 years ago|reply
(An honest view from their side would talk about subjects like "What percentile of our employees are competent to do their jobs? How much would it cost to improve this?")
[+] [-] bonemachine|12 years ago|reply
The immigration officer then returned to the room and accused Grande of being a liar. He claimed that he talked to her aunt, who allegedly told him that Grande will take care of her as a caregiver.
She said the immigration officer's allegations are not true because her aunt didn't even know she was arriving in the US.
"While Officer Mam kept on repeating his questions about why I was in the US, a fellow officer by the name of Chang, joined and shouted, calling me a liar. He even searched my purse where I had wedding cards (with money) for my daughter and future son-in-law, and a birthday card for Joshua (also with money) and other stuff. He scattered all the items in my purse on the table, asking why they should believe me, when my aunt, according to him, seems to be the honest one," Grande said.
[+] [-] vixen99|12 years ago|reply
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-eborders-s...
[+] [-] toyg|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JackFr|12 years ago|reply
I think it would be prudent to reserve judgement until more information is available.
[+] [-] pinaceae|12 years ago|reply
i am deeply skeptical about this account. this year alone i have entered the US about 10 times, coming from European and Asian destinations. not a US citizen. I have never witnessed any impolite behavior by CBP personnel towards passengers - and I was standing in the blue line for hours with them.
using the very specific term TNT is very strange for non-filipino officers.
if you worked in retail this reminds me of certain customers from hell that complained to your manager and told a story that was outrageously one sided. all the while having been openly abusive to you.
[+] [-] rajeemcariazo|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wyclif|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ionforce|12 years ago|reply
"Filipino visitor something something..."