> I have an 11-inch Macbook Air and an iPhone 5. No other devices.
For some reason, I knew this was going to pop up somewhere in the list.
Smartphones are arguably one of the biggest gadget of the century. And they can be used to watch TV, movies, read news, books, as GPS, as game device and so on.
Because this is the kind of minimalism only quite rich people can afford. I once met a girl, who said "when I travel, I only need my hang-glider. Everything else I can buy when I'm there". It was a refreshingly honest expression.
I know several ego-minimalists. They never post anything online, ever. No facebook, no twitter, nada. No one online knows just how hip they are on the inside.
I have an iPhone/Macbook because I'm the technical co-founder of a web startup. I love technology and want to use technology to change the world. I try to stay up-to-date so I can understand what current technology is capable of. I understand that most minimalists don't love technology. That why I called it "modern minimalism" instead of "traditional minimalism".
You guys have a lot of questions and I'd love to answer all of them. I'm thinking about posting a video FAQ about modern minimalism. Would anyone be interested in that? I want to share everything I can with you about my lifestyle, and I'd love any feedback you guys have on how I can improve my lifestyle. I'm also interested in hearing about your lifestyles, as I respect and admire the Hacker News community a lot.
Another rent-a-cliche is the inevitable Moleskine notebook. You sometimes even get to find out what make of bag they use too, like it could possibly matter. It's egotism and childishness combined, IMHO. For "minimalists" they really seem to care about brands :)
> You don’t need any of those soapy substances. It’s all a big lie perpetrated by people who want your money. If you eat/sleep/exercise properly, you will almost never get sick and your body will never smell bad. You won’t need to overcompensate by wasting money on soapy substances.
Haha you're right. Point taken. I don't have a citation for that one. It's just an opinion I've formed based on my personal experience. I don't know if anything I've said will work for anyone else, but I know that it seems to work for me. In the future, would you suggest I make it more clear that I'm just expressing an opinion when I say stuff like that?
As someone who has a pretty simple life (my most valuable possession would probably be ~100kgs of books, stacked in 2 fairly small boxes), I'd love to know a couple of practical details in your life (if it isn't too snooping, that is)! The question will be fairly personal, because pretty much most other stuffs won't be essential.
Do you take a bath daily? How do you brush your teeth? You seems pretty young, and things like teeth cavity might not be a problem yet, but it's hard to say what will happen in a few year.
Why did you make a decision to not have any soapy substance? It seems like a single small bottle of something that can be used both as shampoo and body soap would accomplish the same thing. And bathing after sweating without soap just never seems to work for me.
And are you sure that you're not smelly? I'm honestly wondering since it's fairly hard to for one to detect our own smell - we just get used to it.
I noticed myself that if I wash daily, I would not need shower gel. I use it nonetheless, but I could go days without soap (or the perfume contained). EXCEPT if I drink coffee - that makes my sweat somewhat smelly (you probably won't notice it though, only I do) :)
Toothpaste: There are people who get cavities while using toothpaste 3x a day, while I haven't gotten any cavities in the last few years although I have limited brushing to 1x per day (evening). I had minor tooth surgery once, but that seems to have stemmed from an overzealous dentist drilling too fast into a minor cavity which he should just have left alone (causing shock within the tooth, leading to inflammation). But, I'm not sure whether I would ever go entirely without toothpaste. I might research into natural substitutes with similar chemical compounds.
Deo: You certainly don't need it if you eat clean and shower every day.
Shampoo: Some people report that omitting shampoo works well, but there's a nasty transition period of a few weeks in which you might look like you dipped your head in grease. Reportedly, skalp skin reduces the amount of fat secreted if you stop constantly washing it away.
Every morning I wake up, exercise, take a shower, brush my teeth, and floss without shampoo/soap/toothpaste. Soapy substances have never seemed necessary for me.
I consulted my dentist about my decision not to use toothpaste. She said that if it works for me (which it currently is, according to her) then I'm fine.
I'm 99% sure I'm not smelly. Whenever I make a lifestyle choice that causes me to smell bad, my parents inform me of my foul odor. I've found that by keeping my hair short, eating healthy, and showering daily, I can avoid smelling bad. I did go a few days without showering once. I smelled bad after that, so the daily shower seems to play an important role in my smelling ok. I also shave my armpits to reduce the risk of smell even further. When they're clean-shaven, they pretty much don't sweat if I'm not exercising, so they don't produce much of a smell.
It's funny how people who say they are minimalists start listing the things they don't have in the "physical" life arguing they are not needed. But then, they have an iCloud account, a twitter, facebook, flickr, instagram, reddit, gmail, you name it account. How about a minimalist virtual life too, where all you have is an email account? an e-minimalist?
I think a minimalist life should be more about "using" less (and accomplishing more) than about plain raw "owning" less.
I think it is useful to recognize that "stuff" is a system, and as a user, the system of "stuff" requires some maintenance, is at risk of failure (by theft, loss or damage), though despite the drawbacks does provide benefits that make life better. My water filter makes water taste better; my sweet chair is very comfortable. My car drives me to the beach to surf regularly. Some stuff requires greater scrutiny -- the high maintenance demanded by the car in terms of time and money indicates that I would be wise to carefully consider if the benefits outweigh the costs.
Technology systems can be measured similarly -- do the costs (time, money, cognitive load, opportunity cost, presently and in the future), outweigh the benefits. Making that measurement is difficult, and our minds are not exactly rational actors when it comes to deciding to adopt technology -- we are easily swayed by social factors, and it is hard to measure the future cognitive load and opportunity cost of a technology system. Being an "e-minimalist" could be a useful heuristic.
Since benefits of "stuff" and systems can vary subjectively, I think minimalism (as a philosophy or hobby) is a subset of a larger identity question from the individual -- "what is my relationship to the systems at play in my life?" Attempting to optimize that relationship usually leads to more happiness than ignoring the question.
For some people, minimalism for "stuff" is a solid optimization. E-minimalism makes lots of sense, too.
Out of interest: Where do you stay? Do you rent a flat/house? If so: How do keep it clean? What do you eat? Are you out-sourcing your food production? I am asking because, the smartphone discussion aside, i find it questionable to speak of minimalism if you just trade most of reproductive labor for money. I guess most of (single, childless) readers of HN could just live in an hotel suite without owning anything beside an laptop. I am sorry if that sounds mean, i am no native speaker, i mean it sincerly; 1 month ago i moved to another country to live here for one year and everything i took with me fit in a small backpack. I am still living quite minimalistic on 25m², but i have stuff like a broom, some kitchen equipment, even two beds - one for guests - and an external monitor. Oh, and soap ;)
I am sure this guy is still living with his parents judging by the stuff he owns. If you live on your own you NEED things like a refrigerator, a stove, pots and pans, cleaning supplies, kitchen knife, lamps, a table, chairs, the list can go on and on.
I co-founded a web startup and live in a house with my co-founders. We pay our bills through revenues and investment.
My goal is to survive on Soylent when it comes out. I've already pre-ordered a month supply. Until then, I survive primarily on Orgain, a drink similar to Soylent. I also frequently eat out with my friends.
Some of the attitudes in the minimalist movement strike me as cargo-cult. What I mean by that is that they seem aimed at optimizing the how-much-stuff-you-own metric itself rather than what it's supposed to be a proxy for (lack of mental burden, control over your life). This is tantamount to assuming that complexity is inherently unmanageable, which I disagree with.
Venkatesh Rao has a good post on the matter somewhere.
Edit: As for the link posted (whether or not it's genuine), I wonder about
>I don’t have a bed or a pillow. I
sleep in a small sleeping bag.
Minimalism or not, I would like to expand on one of the points - most cosmetics in wide circulation today are really terrible. If you look up their ingredients and look at chemical properties of those, it's all about optimizing the technological process to be as cheap as possible and producing short-term pleasant sensations for the customer, health considerations being completely absent.
Basically it's an example of a problem with market economy that probably occurs in other fields too sometimes - customers themselves do not always notice long term effects of using bad chemicals on their skin and are apt to buy products that smell nice, lather or distribute easily and so on, so almost all producers end up producing products that give a good first impression at the cost of being harmful in the long term. For example, almost every shampoo or fluid soap contains some form of SLS, because it's cheap and because it makes for a nice emulsion, despite research showing it is apt to cause skin irritation. Also popular are mineral oils, which is quite an euphemism for a byproduct of petroleum distillation. If you consider this just the next quack fad, talk to someone who uses some of those chemicals in a lab.
Actually, I recently tried to verify the claims about horrible consequences of SLS from anything other than semi-conspiracy-theory sites. I might have missed something, but what I've found was boiled down to it being pretty much a non-issue. What it did turn out, though, is that we use too high doses of soaps and shampoos in general, and they are actually intended to be used in minuscule amounts.
Also, "byproduct of petroleum distillation!" is the new "unnatural!" is the new "if got intended X to Y, he would Z!".
I think many people actually believe (and specifically use for the reason) that using cosmetics product would be useful for them in the long run: reduce wrinkle, aging etc. As I have no knowledge on this, can anyone weight in?
Since nobody else has pointed this out: the rest of the guy's website reveals him to be a stand-up comic. The ridiculousness of this post is intentional.
But if he didn't have a laptop, he could not post on his tumblr and you would be deprived of these nuggets of life wisdom. Is that really what you want?
I have tons of possessions and when I don't feel like it I just don't maintain them! Guess what, plants aside my possessions don't give a shit and I have just the same time gain.
I find it a little curious that most commenters here are focusing on his mention of not using soap, but not asking about how his source of income, food, or shelter. That iPhone 5 comes with a monthly bill and requires recharging daily.
Clearly, his soap bills were hundreds of dollars a month. Now that he's quit his soap habit, he's got enough for the iPhone. For shelter, he built a yurt out of soap wrappers and self-esteem.
Meh. I am in the process of buying a foldable kayak. I plan to kayak in Patagonia in 2015 and I crossed Poland, Austria and Slovakia with a canoe the last 2 years.
Point is: my kayak won't fit in a bag. Then what? I should buy and iPhone and spend my time on fb? He doesn't even have an ebook, does he read?
I do consider myself a minimalist, but in the way I embrace only the minimum to live a full life, not just for the sake of it. You can't seriously think you can spend all your life like that. What will you talk about with your friends if you have nothing going on? What will fulfill your life growing old? You can sit and think only so much.
I'm very interested in doing a long distance river trip in Europe. Can I ask which route you took through those countries? Was dealing with locks an issue or did you just carry your canoe past them?
This is just doing shit so you can call yourself something. I didn't have a bed or pillow for 3 months. It was uncomfortable and although I got used to it I woke up with neck/back pain every morning. It's a stupid thing to do on purpose.
As for not using soap - please start again. I don't want to be shaking your hand after you've been to the bathroom. And how about in hospitals? Do you make an exception to wash your hands with the provided soap before entering a ward?
Also, getting rid of soap, socks, and a bed does not give you more time.
Every time someone tries to convince me they've found some awesome way to live their life (or do anything) and hints that they've tapped into something undiscovered, or something we'd all be doing if we weren't so blinded or busy being tricked by 'the man', I have to remind myself that we're not all the same.
It needs to be repeated. We're not all the same.
To think that we are the same and make decisions based on that assumption (and use that as a basis for any kind of advice) is at best, foolish, and at most, dangerous.
Here's my ridiculous strawman (which is for entertainment more than argument, like any good strawman):
I don't need a wheelchair. The average person doesn't need a wheelchair. So let's do away with wheelchairs!
Look, sure, I've got a lot of stuff that I don't need and shouldn't need. Upon accepting this truth I didn't dump all my shit and try to fit my life into a backpack. I'm married, which brings with it a whole bunch of compromises. This post, and many like it, reek of someone who doesn't have to make a lot of compromises. I'm sure it works for him. It may not work for you.
I have just moved to another country. While my wife wraps up her job in my home country, before she moves here, I am moving from apartment to apartment with only a suitcase full of clothes, my laptop, and a phone.
Frankly, I hate it. It's great to have a safe and familiar place that you can call home. It's great to have a sofa, a bed, a stack of books, some nice photos on the wall, a kitchen with cooking tools, etc. Also, it's utterly impractical to be a minimalist when/if you get children. Or a life partner who doesn't hold the same philosophy.
I believe in the middle way: don't be overly consumerist, don't be ascetic. There is nothing wrong with having a home and owning stuff (like two jeans).
(Of course, each to his/her own, but I think for 95% of the population extreme minimalism doesn't make them happier.)
I did the no-soap thing for awhile. I wouldn't recommend it, unless you're looking to live some kind of counter-culture lifestyle and purposefully alienate people in the mainstream who aren't as open-minded as you are.
Once I stopped, cut my hair and dressed more nicely, I noticed everyone around me, even the open-minded folk suddenly being a lot more friendly.
My take-away: don't cut your nose off to spite your face. Soap is one of those things society believes we need and it's not all that harmful, even if it doesn't really help things much. So just use it.
[+] [-] bnegreve|12 years ago|reply
For some reason, I knew this was going to pop up somewhere in the list.
Smartphones are arguably one of the biggest gadget of the century. And they can be used to watch TV, movies, read news, books, as GPS, as game device and so on.
So why iPhone and no soap?
[+] [-] LaGrange|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] interstitial|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thepatshea|12 years ago|reply
I have an iPhone/Macbook because I'm the technical co-founder of a web startup. I love technology and want to use technology to change the world. I try to stay up-to-date so I can understand what current technology is capable of. I understand that most minimalists don't love technology. That why I called it "modern minimalism" instead of "traditional minimalism".
You guys have a lot of questions and I'd love to answer all of them. I'm thinking about posting a video FAQ about modern minimalism. Would anyone be interested in that? I want to share everything I can with you about my lifestyle, and I'd love any feedback you guys have on how I can improve my lifestyle. I'm also interested in hearing about your lifestyles, as I respect and admire the Hacker News community a lot.
[+] [-] autonomy77|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joshguthrie|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] milonguero|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vibragiel|12 years ago|reply
[citation needed]
[+] [-] adlpz|12 years ago|reply
All those people cleaning their clothes with soap on the river in the 16th century were clearly being lied by corporations who wanted their money.
[+] [-] adamnemecek|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] corobo|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thepatshea|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NhanH|12 years ago|reply
Do you take a bath daily? How do you brush your teeth? You seems pretty young, and things like teeth cavity might not be a problem yet, but it's hard to say what will happen in a few year.
Why did you make a decision to not have any soapy substance? It seems like a single small bottle of something that can be used both as shampoo and body soap would accomplish the same thing. And bathing after sweating without soap just never seems to work for me.
And are you sure that you're not smelly? I'm honestly wondering since it's fairly hard to for one to detect our own smell - we just get used to it.
[+] [-] manmal|12 years ago|reply
Toothpaste: There are people who get cavities while using toothpaste 3x a day, while I haven't gotten any cavities in the last few years although I have limited brushing to 1x per day (evening). I had minor tooth surgery once, but that seems to have stemmed from an overzealous dentist drilling too fast into a minor cavity which he should just have left alone (causing shock within the tooth, leading to inflammation). But, I'm not sure whether I would ever go entirely without toothpaste. I might research into natural substitutes with similar chemical compounds.
Deo: You certainly don't need it if you eat clean and shower every day.
Shampoo: Some people report that omitting shampoo works well, but there's a nasty transition period of a few weeks in which you might look like you dipped your head in grease. Reportedly, skalp skin reduces the amount of fat secreted if you stop constantly washing it away.
[+] [-] thepatshea|12 years ago|reply
Every morning I wake up, exercise, take a shower, brush my teeth, and floss without shampoo/soap/toothpaste. Soapy substances have never seemed necessary for me.
I consulted my dentist about my decision not to use toothpaste. She said that if it works for me (which it currently is, according to her) then I'm fine.
I'm 99% sure I'm not smelly. Whenever I make a lifestyle choice that causes me to smell bad, my parents inform me of my foul odor. I've found that by keeping my hair short, eating healthy, and showering daily, I can avoid smelling bad. I did go a few days without showering once. I smelled bad after that, so the daily shower seems to play an important role in my smelling ok. I also shave my armpits to reduce the risk of smell even further. When they're clean-shaven, they pretty much don't sweat if I'm not exercising, so they don't produce much of a smell.
[+] [-] SandB0x|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thepatshea|12 years ago|reply
Video: http://thepatshea.tumblr.com/post/63809364097 | Discuss the video: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6538136
[+] [-] theboywho|12 years ago|reply
I think a minimalist life should be more about "using" less (and accomplishing more) than about plain raw "owning" less.
[+] [-] goo|12 years ago|reply
I think it is useful to recognize that "stuff" is a system, and as a user, the system of "stuff" requires some maintenance, is at risk of failure (by theft, loss or damage), though despite the drawbacks does provide benefits that make life better. My water filter makes water taste better; my sweet chair is very comfortable. My car drives me to the beach to surf regularly. Some stuff requires greater scrutiny -- the high maintenance demanded by the car in terms of time and money indicates that I would be wise to carefully consider if the benefits outweigh the costs.
Technology systems can be measured similarly -- do the costs (time, money, cognitive load, opportunity cost, presently and in the future), outweigh the benefits. Making that measurement is difficult, and our minds are not exactly rational actors when it comes to deciding to adopt technology -- we are easily swayed by social factors, and it is hard to measure the future cognitive load and opportunity cost of a technology system. Being an "e-minimalist" could be a useful heuristic.
Since benefits of "stuff" and systems can vary subjectively, I think minimalism (as a philosophy or hobby) is a subset of a larger identity question from the individual -- "what is my relationship to the systems at play in my life?" Attempting to optimize that relationship usually leads to more happiness than ignoring the question.
For some people, minimalism for "stuff" is a solid optimization. E-minimalism makes lots of sense, too.
[+] [-] bjourne|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] phaer|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spectrum|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thepatshea|12 years ago|reply
My goal is to survive on Soylent when it comes out. I've already pre-ordered a month supply. Until then, I survive primarily on Orgain, a drink similar to Soylent. I also frequently eat out with my friends.
[+] [-] telephonetemp|12 years ago|reply
Venkatesh Rao has a good post on the matter somewhere.
Edit: As for the link posted (whether or not it's genuine), I wonder about
>I don’t have a bed or a pillow. I sleep in a small sleeping bag.
Is this healthy in the long run?
[+] [-] stiff|12 years ago|reply
Basically it's an example of a problem with market economy that probably occurs in other fields too sometimes - customers themselves do not always notice long term effects of using bad chemicals on their skin and are apt to buy products that smell nice, lather or distribute easily and so on, so almost all producers end up producing products that give a good first impression at the cost of being harmful in the long term. For example, almost every shampoo or fluid soap contains some form of SLS, because it's cheap and because it makes for a nice emulsion, despite research showing it is apt to cause skin irritation. Also popular are mineral oils, which is quite an euphemism for a byproduct of petroleum distillation. If you consider this just the next quack fad, talk to someone who uses some of those chemicals in a lab.
[+] [-] LaGrange|12 years ago|reply
Also, "byproduct of petroleum distillation!" is the new "unnatural!" is the new "if got intended X to Y, he would Z!".
[+] [-] NhanH|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] srl|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] m23io|12 years ago|reply
A "minimalist" shouldn't need a fucking smartphone and laptop.
[+] [-] adamnemecek|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nmeofthestate|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adamnemecek|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Sarien|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] killwhitey|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] interstitial|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kfk|12 years ago|reply
Point is: my kayak won't fit in a bag. Then what? I should buy and iPhone and spend my time on fb? He doesn't even have an ebook, does he read?
I do consider myself a minimalist, but in the way I embrace only the minimum to live a full life, not just for the sake of it. You can't seriously think you can spend all your life like that. What will you talk about with your friends if you have nothing going on? What will fulfill your life growing old? You can sit and think only so much.
[+] [-] kal00ma|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] k-mcgrady|12 years ago|reply
As for not using soap - please start again. I don't want to be shaking your hand after you've been to the bathroom. And how about in hospitals? Do you make an exception to wash your hands with the provided soap before entering a ward?
Also, getting rid of soap, socks, and a bed does not give you more time.
[+] [-] teh_klev|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] telephonetemp|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] collypops|12 years ago|reply
It needs to be repeated. We're not all the same.
To think that we are the same and make decisions based on that assumption (and use that as a basis for any kind of advice) is at best, foolish, and at most, dangerous.
Here's my ridiculous strawman (which is for entertainment more than argument, like any good strawman):
I don't need a wheelchair. The average person doesn't need a wheelchair. So let's do away with wheelchairs!
Look, sure, I've got a lot of stuff that I don't need and shouldn't need. Upon accepting this truth I didn't dump all my shit and try to fit my life into a backpack. I'm married, which brings with it a whole bunch of compromises. This post, and many like it, reek of someone who doesn't have to make a lot of compromises. I'm sure it works for him. It may not work for you.
Wear sunscreen.
[+] [-] microtonal|12 years ago|reply
I have just moved to another country. While my wife wraps up her job in my home country, before she moves here, I am moving from apartment to apartment with only a suitcase full of clothes, my laptop, and a phone.
Frankly, I hate it. It's great to have a safe and familiar place that you can call home. It's great to have a sofa, a bed, a stack of books, some nice photos on the wall, a kitchen with cooking tools, etc. Also, it's utterly impractical to be a minimalist when/if you get children. Or a life partner who doesn't hold the same philosophy.
I believe in the middle way: don't be overly consumerist, don't be ascetic. There is nothing wrong with having a home and owning stuff (like two jeans).
(Of course, each to his/her own, but I think for 95% of the population extreme minimalism doesn't make them happier.)
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] vinceguidry|12 years ago|reply
Once I stopped, cut my hair and dressed more nicely, I noticed everyone around me, even the open-minded folk suddenly being a lot more friendly.
My take-away: don't cut your nose off to spite your face. Soap is one of those things society believes we need and it's not all that harmful, even if it doesn't really help things much. So just use it.
[+] [-] pm|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pm|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jpswade|12 years ago|reply
Anywhere that bacteria and fungus can grow is going to harbour germs.
Tackle those places and you won't smell.