Not quite as long as it took Adi Shamir, but long.
On average it takes about 14 weeks to get a visa, but on occasion it has taken many many months.
I've done the calculations, the worst-case scenario for the full process is 32 weeks. It's never actually taken that long, but it's not been far off.
I remember having to explain to Microsoft that they needed to write a sponsor/supporting letter (for the US embassy) more than half a year in advance of any potential visit to Redmond that I'd be working at. As this was for DAC (Developer Advisory Council) meetings that Microsoft only scheduled a month in advance they found themselves in a dilemma over this. Thankfully they agreed, and their legal department would author letters that a meeting would likely occur requiring my attendance, but it was always a slog of a process.
For those wondering, I was shortly married to a US citizen and I speculate that this triggers some flag or signal that makes them think I want to stay there (I don't). I also have an interesting past, having been homeless for a while. Who knows though, the system doesn't supply answers. It's a black box process.
It's a nightmare process that doesn't end when you have a visa. On arrival I experience the joys of "secondary", and being sat in a waiting room for many hours before a 10-second interview in which they let me go my way.
Every part of the experience is a miserable one, always with the threat of an axe over the visit.
The vast majority of the time I have been invited, or had opportunities to visit, I just do not choose to visit the USA.
What has been your the worst experience in the "secondary".
I had the dubious privilege of being sent to secondary upon arrival in Houston earlier this year.
The experience reminded me of old Soviet Union or something out of Kafka.
My wait was not very long maybe 30 minutes and after that I was sent on my way without any interview or anything, but those were some extremely long minutes.
I first made the mistake of sitting down in the "comfy" chair, which apparently was reserved for those poor souls who have to remain in secondary overnight or longer.
Then I noticed a sign No Electronic Devices Allowed, which meant no tablet, no e-reader no nothing. So better bring a book ("Consolation of Philosophy" perhaps?).
There were no progress or status updates or anything. I saw some misplaced NATO soldiers sent on their way quickly, while an elderly Russian emigree couple was berated for leaving US to travel.
Then there were people in the comfy chairs who had resigned to their fate and simply were sleeping or pretending to.
Again, this doesn't sound that bad, but the problem was that there was absolutely no indication on how long this process could take. No queue numbers no nothing.
I am supposed to go to US again soon, but I am extremely wary now.
What is the worst experience in the secondary that you've experienced?
A few years ago I applied with my sister, she got hers straight away, while I (Arab, early 20s, with a rather pathetic beard) got a letter telling me to wait and not ask them about its status. About half a year later I got another letter asking me to apply again if I still want to go.
I quite like the 'apology' he received from the conference organizers:
> In July 2013 I told the NSA-affiliated conference organizers that I was having some problems in getting my visa, and gently asked whether they could do something about it. Always eager to help, the NSA people leaped into action, and immediately sent me a short email written with a lot of tact:
> “The trouble you are having is regrettable… Sorry you won’t be able to come to our conference. We have submitted our program and did not include you on it.”
As somebody that has held six different US immigration statuses during a span of a couple of decades, I can almost assure you there is no malice behind this and just pure bureaucratic incompetence. I once had a paper that was supposed to arrive in three months take three years. What I learned is that going to the USCIS office after something is due and checking the status will make a difference since, for example, you can spot (common) routing errors with applications.
I thought that was a known fact. I often hear about people who can't attend security-related conferences because of visa problems. Last year at the CRYPTO/CHES/FDTC/PROOFS week in Santa Barbara at least three researchers (from India IIRC) couldn't make it because of visa problems, while they had accepted papers at one of the conference!
In many lab outside of the US, we are told not to be to verbose about the type of conferences we are going to attend in the US. Words such as "security", "cryptography", "side-channel attacks", "fault injection attacks", etc. must be banned from the application. Instead we just say that we are going to a "computer science conference" or "information processing conference" for instance.
From the visa guidelines of the embassy where I applied for my visa [1]:
The visa applications of applicants involved in technical or scientific fields may require additional administrative processing. Therefore, applicants who believe they may be affected by this requirement should apply as early as possible.
Happens all the time. A colleague of mine has issues because she happened to have worked in a lab previously whose building also happened to house a lab that did nuclear research (even though she never did any herself). Scientists also move around a lot, so it doesn't help if you've worked in/visited/just been to a conference in certain countries that might arouse suspicion... It's a bit of a nightmare actually.
Scientists specifically are targeted for extra scrutiny. In my visa interview I was asked if my research is in cryptography and waved through when I said it isn't.
My friend was in the US before he had to go out and get his H1B extended. He was stuck outside the country for about 5 months for "additional scrutiny". He got his undergrad, masters and Ph.D. in the US and worked in the area of chemical engineering + spent working 6 months in middle east on water filtration projects.
when I was a grad student, we regularly removed foreign students from our lab web site when they were renewing their visas due to the belief that visas were approved more quickly the less the government could learn by googling your name. That is, if they can quickly learn anything about your research, those are all potential red flags. If a quick google search turns up nothing, you'll just be rubber stamped through.
One of the grad students I know was told he was not allowed to renew his student visa unless he stopped working on computer security. He had to switch advisers and the school had to swear that he would not be allowed to continue his previous work.
I know of another Israeli security researcher that had big trojble getting an american visa for travel, he had to cancel his trip because getting the visa took 5 months IIRC.
AFAIK, USA has been a second choice for crypto-related conferences for many years.
If you ever attended one such conference, you will notice there will always some speakers/presenters couldn't attend due to visa issues.
I guess many US people aren't even aware of this, but visa problem has been a huge pain for non US citizens. You can ask about this if you have any friends who are international students or H1B workers.
It's not that they didn't give him a J1 visa, it's just that they took way too long to process it.
It sucks, but I wouldn't attribute to malice what I could attribute to inefficiency :)
It should not take four months and pulling a lot of strings to get a visa, in particular if you have been to the US for many times, have invitations from renowned institutions etc.
I am not a scientist and I can usually enter the US on the visa waiver program but I always wonder if the latest visit was also the last, you never know. And while you get used to the usual 1- or 2-hour wait at immigration, you never know if you get selected for a secondary check or worse. As much as I like the US and being in the US, entering the US is always very unpleasant.
I used to think the same way (malice vs incompetence), but lately there has been to much malice going on.. I am sad to admit that I am starting to have my doubts about it.
What is obvious is that "Adi Shamir" is a name of someone living in a country dominated by Islam, and further that person is known to work in cryptography, so he is obviously a terrorist trying to send secret orders to other terrorists. In any case, he's a PITA for the NSA and other good guys like that. What they should have done, is to give him a visa, and redirect his flight direct to Guantanamo for further interrogation.</sarcasm level=big>
A tad more seriously: it's because of all those scientists of all the ages, that they have this situation where mere peasants can travel all around the globe, and make bombs or pilot planes into buildings. In the good old time, if a peasant tried to escape, he was eaten by the wolfs in the hoods, or killed by the highwaymen, so they stayed put, and the most they could try to do was to bump the armor of the lord with their wooden forks.
So it seems only natural to try to restrict them like that (perhaps it's a little too late).
I think if the US must continue to have such draconian and onerous entry requirements they should offer a fast track or simplified program for persons of note to attend a specific event in their field.
To not do so simply hinders the progress of human knowledge, or at least, it hinders the United States.
> fast track or simplified program for persons of note
There actually is a visa for Outstanding persons called O-1A: individuals with an extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business, or athletics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa).
All the fast track you need is to confer in a less-crazy space. In general, this works pretty well. You can publish in Springer journals, attend IEEE conferences and whatnot without ever entering USA.
However, it would be pretty funny to see NSA organize its conference in Europe to evade visa problems :D
Unfortunately this would violate some "fairness" or "political correctness" rule. It's like patting down some grandma/3-year-old girl at the airport, just to show we're not "prejudiced".
Why did he apply for a J-1 visa? I've been on a J-1 a couple of times for research stints in the US, but my understanding is that for conferences, you can also make use of the B-1 visa [1], as stated on the State department's website. The B-1 is generally processed much more quickly, with the J-1 requiring a lot more documentation.
Why not attend by telepresence? Let him present by video and hook him up with a Double or similar internet-controllable robot to talk to people around the conference. Or go full-on Bluth and pair up with an American proxy wearing a headset.
I've been thinking you could hook up a cam/mic to one of those Roomba vacuum 'bots and then you could cruise around the conference and network with your colleagues just as though you were there. I understand those things have wifi already, so....
The coolest part would be bumping into other Roombas that represent colleagues from elsewhere (you'd need a way to distinguish from an ordinary, autonomous Roomba). There could even be a Roomba room just for them!
There needs to be legislation that allows foreign scientist's visas to be rushed to the front of the line when they have a science convention. I mean just imagine if doctor A had information to present that would help doctor B find a cure for HIV or something just important.
Are we really making it that difficult for the smartest people in the world to convene and discuss all the new smart stuff they know with the other smartest people in the world?
Not only scientists and doctors, but programmers too. Just imagine if somebody invented a new rails plugin that could be used to help build the next wikileaks or something but they weren't able to demonstrate it at a meetup.
[+] [-] buro9|12 years ago|reply
Not quite as long as it took Adi Shamir, but long.
On average it takes about 14 weeks to get a visa, but on occasion it has taken many many months.
I've done the calculations, the worst-case scenario for the full process is 32 weeks. It's never actually taken that long, but it's not been far off.
I remember having to explain to Microsoft that they needed to write a sponsor/supporting letter (for the US embassy) more than half a year in advance of any potential visit to Redmond that I'd be working at. As this was for DAC (Developer Advisory Council) meetings that Microsoft only scheduled a month in advance they found themselves in a dilemma over this. Thankfully they agreed, and their legal department would author letters that a meeting would likely occur requiring my attendance, but it was always a slog of a process.
For those wondering, I was shortly married to a US citizen and I speculate that this triggers some flag or signal that makes them think I want to stay there (I don't). I also have an interesting past, having been homeless for a while. Who knows though, the system doesn't supply answers. It's a black box process.
It's a nightmare process that doesn't end when you have a visa. On arrival I experience the joys of "secondary", and being sat in a waiting room for many hours before a 10-second interview in which they let me go my way.
Every part of the experience is a miserable one, always with the threat of an axe over the visit.
The vast majority of the time I have been invited, or had opportunities to visit, I just do not choose to visit the USA.
[+] [-] sireat|12 years ago|reply
I had the dubious privilege of being sent to secondary upon arrival in Houston earlier this year.
The experience reminded me of old Soviet Union or something out of Kafka.
My wait was not very long maybe 30 minutes and after that I was sent on my way without any interview or anything, but those were some extremely long minutes.
I first made the mistake of sitting down in the "comfy" chair, which apparently was reserved for those poor souls who have to remain in secondary overnight or longer.
Then I noticed a sign No Electronic Devices Allowed, which meant no tablet, no e-reader no nothing. So better bring a book ("Consolation of Philosophy" perhaps?).
There were no progress or status updates or anything. I saw some misplaced NATO soldiers sent on their way quickly, while an elderly Russian emigree couple was berated for leaving US to travel.
Then there were people in the comfy chairs who had resigned to their fate and simply were sleeping or pretending to.
Again, this doesn't sound that bad, but the problem was that there was absolutely no indication on how long this process could take. No queue numbers no nothing.
I am supposed to go to US again soon, but I am extremely wary now.
What is the worst experience in the secondary that you've experienced?
[+] [-] saljam|12 years ago|reply
I thanked them and said I didn't.
[+] [-] znowi|12 years ago|reply
This. I think it's the only viable solution today. Do not put yourself in a derogatory position, if you can afford it. Just don't go.
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] busterarm|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lvryc|12 years ago|reply
> In July 2013 I told the NSA-affiliated conference organizers that I was having some problems in getting my visa, and gently asked whether they could do something about it. Always eager to help, the NSA people leaped into action, and immediately sent me a short email written with a lot of tact:
> “The trouble you are having is regrettable… Sorry you won’t be able to come to our conference. We have submitted our program and did not include you on it.”
[+] [-] anon1385|12 years ago|reply
Similar recent story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6499744 'US scientists boycott Nasa conference over China ban'
[+] [-] chmars|12 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6562394
On HN, gaining interest depends on many factors. Great to see the story finally in the pole position! :)
[+] [-] rburhum|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hrasyid|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cantrevealname|12 years ago|reply
"It is clear that scientists have been singled out, since I hear that other ‘simple citizen’, do get their visa in a short time."
Scientists get more scrutiny? What in the world is going on there?
[+] [-] p4bl0|12 years ago|reply
In many lab outside of the US, we are told not to be to verbose about the type of conferences we are going to attend in the US. Words such as "security", "cryptography", "side-channel attacks", "fault injection attacks", etc. must be banned from the application. Instead we just say that we are going to a "computer science conference" or "information processing conference" for instance.
[+] [-] mhlakhani|12 years ago|reply
The visa applications of applicants involved in technical or scientific fields may require additional administrative processing. Therefore, applicants who believe they may be affected by this requirement should apply as early as possible.
[1] http://karachi.usconsulate.gov/technology_visas.html
[+] [-] Osmium|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rrrrtttt|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] desigooner|12 years ago|reply
My friend was in the US before he had to go out and get his H1B extended. He was stuck outside the country for about 5 months for "additional scrutiny". He got his undergrad, masters and Ph.D. in the US and worked in the area of chemical engineering + spent working 6 months in middle east on water filtration projects.
[+] [-] cowsandmilk|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] betterunix|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] easytiger|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] weland|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rmc|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] z999|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] zhuzhuor|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rb2k_|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chmars|12 years ago|reply
I am not a scientist and I can usually enter the US on the visa waiver program but I always wonder if the latest visit was also the last, you never know. And while you get used to the usual 1- or 2-hour wait at immigration, you never know if you get selected for a secondary check or worse. As much as I like the US and being in the US, entering the US is always very unpleasant.
[+] [-] clueless123|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] piqufoh|12 years ago|reply
There you go, those pesky scientists making the surveillance industry's job that little bit harder.
[+] [-] informatimago|12 years ago|reply
A tad more seriously: it's because of all those scientists of all the ages, that they have this situation where mere peasants can travel all around the globe, and make bombs or pilot planes into buildings. In the good old time, if a peasant tried to escape, he was eaten by the wolfs in the hoods, or killed by the highwaymen, so they stayed put, and the most they could try to do was to bump the armor of the lord with their wooden forks.
So it seems only natural to try to restrict them like that (perhaps it's a little too late).
[+] [-] WizzleKake|12 years ago|reply
...
[+] [-] UnoriginalGuy|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ra|12 years ago|reply
To not do so simply hinders the progress of human knowledge, or at least, it hinders the United States.
[+] [-] cantrevealname|12 years ago|reply
There actually is a visa for Outstanding persons called O-1A: individuals with an extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business, or athletics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa).
I don't know if it's any faster to get it.
[+] [-] lrem|12 years ago|reply
However, it would be pretty funny to see NSA organize its conference in Europe to evade visa problems :D
[+] [-] blisterpeanuts|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kartikkumar|12 years ago|reply
[1] http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2665.html#...
[+] [-] Sidnicious|12 years ago|reply
This sucks, sure, but there's always another way.
[+] [-] blisterpeanuts|12 years ago|reply
The coolest part would be bumping into other Roombas that represent colleagues from elsewhere (you'd need a way to distinguish from an ordinary, autonomous Roomba). There could even be a Roomba room just for them!
[+] [-] raverbashing|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bhitov|12 years ago|reply
'DISSECTION: A NEW PARADIGM FOR SOLVING BICOMPOSITE SEARCH PROBLEMS'
https://calendar.csail.mit.edu/events/116296
[+] [-] frank_boyd|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gngeal|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mortdeus|12 years ago|reply
Are we really making it that difficult for the smartest people in the world to convene and discuss all the new smart stuff they know with the other smartest people in the world?
[+] [-] tedunangst|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Yuioup|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chmars|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mhlakhani|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bowlofpetunias|12 years ago|reply