I worked for a VoIP startup an hour north of Miami. They got bought for $300M.
I got to live in one of the owner's mansions, by myself. It had nine bathrooms.
Oddly enough, you hear a lot of French there. From the Haitian taxi drivers to the Snow Birds from Quebec. You can buy good Quebecois beer at some stores.
Miami itself is pretty nice. Reminds me of Vancouver and San Diego. Not a big fan of Cuban food, but the nightlife is top-notch. Beach scene is cool if you like beaches. It's pretty hot, but everything has crazy good A/C. Can fly to the Bahamas/Bermuda/St. Barth's whenever you want. Cheap flights up the East Coast too.
It helps to have a car, though they have a seemingly underused elevated public train. It's a good place to bike, as there are essentially no hills.
Regarding taxes, I was paying essentially the same income tax + payroll tax in Florida as I do in British Columbia (though BC has pretty low taxes). Plus free healthcare in Canada. Gas, booze, smokes are basically half the price in Florida as Canada though.
On the bad side...
Peeps are a little shallow, though there is an okay arts community. Not exactly an intellectual climate. I'm sure it can be found, but I didn't.
Palm Beach is a weird fucking place. Richest zip code in America (or was at the time I was there). West Palm Beach was the per-capita murder capital of America. Cops on the bridges to keep the homies out. Lots of boarded-up shops in West Palm during the height of the boom in 2008. Didn't make sense.
There were three murders (of rich white people) that I heard of during the year I was there. The locals are poorly educated, but there are lots of bright imports from around America that make it interesting.
So if you like your artsy, intellectual coffee-shop community of San Fran or Seattle, Miami might not be for you. But if you like clubbing at nights and laid-back days, it's pretty good.
This have changed a lot, specially in the Wynwood / Design District / Midtown area (3 of Downtown's neighborhoods).
And I gonna be the first one to say it I think... I remember during PyCodeconf 2 years ago many of the attendees from SF were really impressed by the amount of women here (beautiful ones) that even the most introverted (I am one of those) can find someone here. For girls too, also, since people are really obsessed with fitness here. That's pretty shallow but hey we didn't come out with Tinder ;-) you guys did.
The fun time we have at nightclubs (now there are many hipster bars and venues) is really unmatchable, I went out 3 times this week (it's just friday night) and the places were still going hard at 5am, not only that, there are places that close very late and open early (Will Call, from 12pm to 7am) or open at 3am (Mekka and Space). I might sound like a party guy but I'm not, this is very typical of Miami.
I'm not gonna tell you, you can find smarter people here, since that would be a lie, but artsy people? Probably, and very good looking.
About the affordability, I live in front of Bayfront Park (the biggest park in Downtown, walking distance from AAA) the apartment is beautiful, and the building is like living in a hotel, pool (with a bar and full staff), gym, spa, all that for only $1650 (and my neighbors pay a lot less, I'm just a bad negotiator), check it out: http://www.vizcayne.com/
West Palm Beach used to be a lovely working and middle class area (I lived there a half century ago), but it is now the destination for many of the region's Haitian immigrants. They've unfortunately brought many of the same problems that plague Haiti, including poverty and serious gang violence.
Your description is good, and I've lived in South Florida for most of my life so I'll add to it.
SF Bay Area vs South Florida
Food: I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Cuban food is awesome and it's the best South FL has to offer. Everything else is on the meh side. Almost every other metro is better with SF, LA, and NY being a lot better.
Weather: unless it's the late fall or early winter, it's really hot and humid, even at night. Yes parts of the Bay Area get hot, but it's not paired with humidity. Heavy humidity makes breathing feel heavier, as well as making you sweat a lot from just walking for 10 minutes outside. I still remember seeing some steam leaving our heads after some pickup basketball games. To make things worse, in some seasons mosquitos will be carrying some awful diseases like encephalitis so you'll need to wear long sleeves at night. In south Fl, prepare to have electric bills over 200-300 or even more depending on the size of your house. Not using air conditioning will make you miserable. Really the only place enjoyable outside is on the water.
Bay Area weather on the other hand is like having air conditioning outside. My relatives from FL always marvel at it whenever they visit.On the bright side you have more time to prepare for a hurricane than you do for an earthquake.
Outdoor Leisure: The ocean is where South FL and Miami really shine. Unlike the cold murky waters of the Bay Area, in South FL the ocean waters are crystal clear. Any watersport like surfing or scuba diving is way better. (On that note watch out for sharks. Due to damage to the environment, shark attacks in south fl has risen dramatically over the years with surfers being injured the most) However, due to erosion most of South FL's beaches are really just crushed rock and concrete which sucks. For real sand, you need access to either a private beach, an unpopular park to the north, or an island park reachable only by boat. Fishing in the ocean is great.
Everything else outdoorsy in South FL really sucks due to the humidity. Biking, camping, and hiking are just not as enjoyable as the Bay Area or even New York. There's no Tahoe nearby either. Though Disney World is way better than Disney Land. It also doesn't help that insects and spiders are a really big problem in south FL. Even indoors it's much worse than any other place in the US that I'm aware of (imagine an ant infestation within 5-10 minutes of dropping a few crumbs of food... Fl is also the spider capital of the world.)
Intellectual Community: South FL and Miami have a virtually non-existent one, as opposed to the Bay Area or NY. If you want that in the Southern US, you'll have to go to either Austin or the Atlanta metro instead. Conversation just isn't as good here compared to other major metros.
Nightlife: Miami beats the Bay Area hands down in this department in both quantity and quality. Though it gets old when you're not single.
General Stuff to do: I've always felt that there's a lot more going on in the Bay Area, Ny, and LA. Conversely there's not as much to do in south fl or Miami which is one reason people start families at a much younger age there.
Crime: Even though the stats are similar I always felt that crime is Miami is worse for one reason: really horrible crime can happen almost anywhere and at anytime (or at least that was my impression).
Cost of Living: South FL and Miami are significantly cheaper than the Bay Area even without factoring in the lack of state income tax. Of course you have also have to factor in the major business and job opportunities as well. Even though the startup scene is much better now, I still feel the biggest opportunities in South FL are real estate, food, and health / medical. As for the cost of real estate, you have to factor in the "snow birds" from the north east buying seasonal homes, so it's not as cheap as it should be though still a lot cheaper than the Bay Area
Misc: Although not required, it's wise to be fluent in Spanish in Miami. You also need a car for Miami and south FL. It's too inconvenient otherwise.
> It's a good place to bike, as there are essentially no hills.
If you don't value your life, sure. Miami traffic is crazy. If you don't get hit by the Fast & Furious wannabe, you'll get hit by an old lady who didn't stop at the light.
The whole Silicon Valley advantage is fading. I went there back in 1997 when it was very hard to find technical jobs in my country (Canada) because a lot of those kinds of jobs gravitated to head office cities for large companies, and many Canadian companies were subsidiaries of large American companies. In Silicon Valley, I learned that most startups fail or are acquired within in a year or so. It's like a lottery. Then I headed to London England, found a job fairly easily and lived there for 10 years or so. Not long ago I returned to Canada, Vancouver this time, and found it loaded with startups and other tech businesses that were more established. Another Canadian city that I am familiar with is Waterloo Ontario and it is in a similar condition. I'm told that Toronto is also overflowing with opportunities both startup and more established stuff. If you are going to play the startup lottery, why not do it among folks you know.
And in case you are wondering what this has to do with Miami, I agree with the OP, just stay home and build your business (startup or otherwise) right there. You still have a ticket in the startup lottery if that is the way you want to go, but just like in SV itself, most of those startups don't last very long.
However, unlike SV, if you stay where you are then you have a better chance of building a normal business that grows incrementally by serving profitable customers, reinvesting profits, and taking a longer term view.
Readers of HN should be very aware that there are startups all over the place, and not just in American cities but in most countries of the world. Silicon Valley just isn't as special as it once was because computers and tech and Internet connectivity is now virtually everywhere that there are cities.
I'm not sure if others have experienced this, but my brain doesn't function very well in tropical heat and humidity. It just seems to slow down, and mental games don't seem as interesting. It may be that I've been conditioned by many episodes of tropical vacations growing up, but whatever the reason, I can't (and indeed, don't really want to) code below about 30 degrees latitude.
Having once lived in Florida, there is a greater culture of AC in the far south than in the far north. I have been more uncomfortable during the summer in Connecticut than I ever was in Florida.
That said, I think there is a mindset to enjoying the heat as well. You should probably not expect to go hiking through the woods in the summer in Florida. It's just not pleasant to be in such places in such humidity with such insects. If you live in Florida, your weekends should be spent at the beach (and please do not call it the shore, it's like calling it soda vs. pop). Sand will get into everywhere and everything, so learning how to deal with sand is a major part of enjoying Florida.
I'm the opposite. My brain works well as soon as I'm no longer shivering. Sweat doesn't phase me too much. It's great for me out here in Phnom Penh, would be too hot/humid for most folks in the long run, but suits me perfectly. Oh yeah, no AC or fan going in my home office here either!
Back north, outside of 2 months of summer you keep having to adjust heating or put on/take off layers of clothing as the time of day progresses, and the slightest shiver gives me a "what is this, I shouldn't have to live this way, I give up, brain shut-down initiated" wave of misery :D hence, tropics suit me best and I do manage to get stuff done here. .
I'm sure most start ups in Miami have A/C, so I'm not sure what your concern is. Most apartments too.
Anyway, I live in an area that reaches 43c in the summer and -6c in the winter. When I first moved here it definitely threw me off, but I got acclimated to it quickly.
To show you my agreement with this, I usually go to the beach in end of Sep/early October in the mid-Atlantic. I don't get lots of swimming or sun bathing in, but there's very few people and the early Autumn storms makes the Ocean magnificent (plus all the stores and tourist places want to move inventory out for the off season so lots of cheap activities and things to buy).
I was born and raised in Miami and my family still lives there so I visit quite often. I moved to the Bay Area not too long ago (3 years) for work and IMO it's no comparison.
Miami is a great place to live if your priorities are partying. There are excellent night clubs and beautiful men and women everywhere.
The Bay Area holds an advantage over almost every point the OP made.
Rent is ~$2k for a 2 bedroom 2 bath if you want to live in a nice area in Coral Gables that isn't full of roaches, or was built in the 1940s and has dwarf-sized rooms. Rent is about the same in the peninsula. If you want to purchase it's a whole different story however. What costs ~$1m here is ~$300k there and probably in a lot better shape.
Food is a push. I must say the Bay Area probably offers a larger variety of food. Miami is mostly all Caribbean and Central/South American food which is excellent but not as varied as the Indian, Mediterranean, Afghan, Thai you see out here.
The neighborhoods are even more awesome here in the Bay Area. I say this because the strangers I meet on the street are a lot nicer than the strangers in Miami. There's a unique, wonderful, and rich history to the cities and towns in the Bay Area and there are a lot of neat places to explore like the Open Space preserves out West or the forrest in Santa Cruz. The only mountains in Florida are the smelly trash ones.
The Developer ecosystem pales in comparison. It's not even close and it won't be for a while. There are very little tech companies out there and no real major players. While it's very nice to see it blooming the reality is that it's still in its infancy and if you're moving out there just for the tech you're doing it wrong.
The weather. It's just terrible. It's like a sauna all the time. It feels like you're breathing in liquid water sometimes and it's difficult to make it from your house to your car (which will be a scorching inferno) without sweating.
The only great things Miami has that I truly miss is the water; it is beautiful and warm.
I moved from San Diego to Miami two years ago. For anyone seriously thinking of coming to Miami from California, I'd like to reiterate a few points.
* Miami is a great place to live if you prioritize partying. If you don't -- or are past that stage in your life -- you are going to find fewer people with things in common than in any other city I've lived.
* If we are generalizing...people are ruder and quicker to screw you over if the opportunity presents itself. And before you say it, no, it's not just because it's a big city. It's different here. It's worse here.
* South Florida drivers are statistically the worst in the country. Luckily I don't have to commute.
* Food is a push, I agree. I really miss the Asian-fare back home. Thankfully, I've found one really awesome Thai place to keep me sane.
* I don't participate in the tech market, as I work remotely for a CA based company.
* The neighborhoods downtown are not awesome. I live across the street [0] from OP and would not feel comfortable walking even a block east with my wife at night. Miami has
* The weather is really subjective. At first, I struggled with the humidity and heat. But now I love it. That and the water are probably the things I love most about Miami.
Since you're a native, maybe you can address something subtle: the extent to which the business community favors positive-sum vs zero-sum thinking, and innovation over marketing.
One of the things I like about Silicon Valley is that people are generally focused on creating value rather than making money. (The difference being that I can make money in ways that transfer money from your pocket to mine, without a net increase in value.) But my impression of Florida is that there's a different orientation there.
For example, South Florida is currently the identity theft capital of the US. [1] At least a few years back, a few Florida counties had more spammers than any other country. [2] It seems like the dubious business culture goes back to the scam-heavy Florida land boom in the 1920s. [3] That had an echo in Florida swampland scams in the 60s and 70s. [4] And Miami was one of the worst cities in the recent US property bubble. [5]
Do you notice that difference in business orientation and business ethics?
I was raised in Miami and my family lives there still as well! We should meet up some time and complain about Miami together, haha. I agree with all the points you made.
Miami has quite a shallow population. I've also found as time goes on that as I develop new interests, there is poor community around most of them--the little things like rock climbing or playing ping pong. It's even extremely difficult to find a coffee shop to work out of when I visit family.
When he said the weather is nice for the winter and also pretty OK most of the summer I just had to wonder. I mean, different strokes for different folks but man, that is a totally different yardstick than how I measure weather, and I grew up in Florida.
I just moved from SF to Miami Beach a month ago. I loved SF but if you have the ability to work from home as I do, financially it does not make sense to stay. I honestly would have preferred to move to Honolulu over here but the only area I liked (Tantalus/roundtop/pacheights) really didn't (at the time) have any nice houses for sale that were under 5 million.
Also, while the cost of living is way down here, so is the income you will get from working a local job. I talked with a few people and there is scant a developer pulling in over 90k here. Compare that to SF where 100k salaries are the norm and it all evens out.
With that said, I like MB/Miami. The tech scene is in its infancy though. I don't believe there is any real institutional venture funds here. Basically, raising a 'A' round is going to be very difficult. You might be able to pull it off with latin american based VC but it will be a struggle.
I will say that the people I have met so far out here have been very nice and welcoming and there is a very good vibe. I am looking forward to building things out here.
Honolulu's cost of living is comparable. Housing costs are slightly lower but food is much more expensive. I make just a little over 90k as a senior engineer and still living pay check to pay check. I probably can make almost double in SF from talking with other engineers I know there so it may be better for me to move.
I did an internship at IBM's Boca Raton site back in '95, where Microsoft used to work with IBM on OS/2 and NT. There used to be a much more vibrant tech scene in that area in the 90s, before everything moved to....Texas.
No state income tax. (A HUGE advantage)
Lots of business.
Some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.
Stunning winter weather.
Gorgeous beaches/parks/neighborhoods.
International culture.
Walkable neighborhoods near downtown.
Some of the best restaurants I've ever been to.
Emerging startup scene.
Vibrant arts/design/culture scene.
Year round biking/jogging/swimming/etc.
Lots of money (including international).
Can fly non-stop anywhere.
Decent mass transit.
Lots of wonderful highrise communities in town.
Cons:
Horrendous traffic.
The worst drivers I've ever seen.
Everything generally overpriced.
Some of the rudest people you'll ever meet.
Generally horrible service.
Lots of blight.
Hot summers (but oddly, no worse than most of the northeast).
Lots of competition for living/shopping/going out/etc.
Too much crime/not enough enforcement.
Party scene is played out (Too loud, not as pretty as you think you are)
The drivers are an interesting point. People in Miami drive way too aggressively. In Texas, I found the opposite in Austin. People here are passive to the point where it's dangerous. Someone will come to a full stop slamming on their breaks from about 40 MPH because they got scared of merging onto the highway fairly regularly.
lol @ 'not as pretty as you think you are' - I think there is so much shallow beauty here you sometimes get desensitized. Your sense for quality people gets honed and you start to gravitate towards each other (if your genuinely looking). Hence why there is an strong but not well known intellectual and art culture here. The visibility is growing though, thanks to places like http://thelabmiami.com/
Lower Florida Keys resident here. I still own a place in Orlando which I have only visited once in the 6 years I've been gone. I got tired of hearing gunshots in the middle of the night. Between that and the chaotic (and plentiful) highway drivers, you couldn't possibly pay me to live in most (any?) large cities in mainland Florida. Despite being only 120 miles from Miami, I've still never visited, unless you count traffic jams when trying to get through it.
Once you get away from the urban nightmares, Florida isn't so bad though. Admittedly not everyone likes the climate, but I run a few miles every morning, even in the summer, and getting on a boat helps to cool off. No malls or dance clubs, and almost no big-box stores or fast food. But we do have Amazon Prime and a fishing pole.
Big difference between Miami and the Keys is you probably have to evacuate every time there's a hurricane warning. Besides I always thought of the Overseas Highway through all of the Keys as a death trap. If the oncoming traffic swerves into your lane, you have no where to go but water. It used to be way worse before it was rebuilt too.
Suburban Miami wasn't bad at least... I certainly don't remember any gunshots growing up there. Now if you lived near Overtown, West Perrine, Goulds, etc. then yeah, you had to deal with gunshots. Same with every major city though.
I made the decision a long time ago that people come first. Comparing the people of San Francisco to those of Miami, well, in this case you get what you pay for. I feel like a rock star wild man anywhere else. In San Francisco I feel like I'm surrounded by people smarter, more creative, and better at life than me. That's worth every penny.
I'll take a hovel in SF over a mansion in Miami any day.
Besides, the defense of Miami in this article stinks of all that is wrong with America - that it's filled with great places to consume. Don't get me wrong, I love my fancy hipster bars, restaurants, and shops - but those aren't what makes SF the best city for me.
San Francisco attracts people who want to do Big Things. It attracts people with technical and business smarts. I do not think it follows, though, that it attracts people with general life smarts or, as you put it, people who are "better at life." The sort of strike-it-rich personalities that are drawn to the San Francisco gold rush are not always the same personalities that are conducive to good old-fashioned happiness and contentment. And it's certainly going to attract a lot of people who will put work and Big Things over the raising of a family.
The implication of this post is that people in Miami are dumber, less creative, and "worse at life" than those in San Francisco.
The population of Miami is around 410,000. When someone tries to "comparing the people of X", where X is a population of 410,000, I think the bigger insight is to be gleaned from the writer's preconceptions than their conclusions.
Are we seeing more quality of life decisions being a bigger and bigger factor in startups? I've met with at least 3 nyc startups that are moving to Miami in the last few weeks because their runway is twice as long here. Although I know they aren't going to stay here permanently, I do like the idea that new blood is coming into the area. New blood equals new ideas which in turn leads to even more new startups.
I spent a few years in Texas -- another zero income tax state, before moving back to the Midwest.
Something to consider is whether or not you've got kids. Right now my family lives in an affordable neighborhood with a tolerant culture and excellent public schools that my two kids attend. In Texas, it seemed more like getting a good secular education for your kids was something that you had to pay a lot for, one way or the other -- either living in a super affluent neighborhood or finding private schools. Financially, I think that I may actually come out ahead living in one of the so-called "education states."
Granted, my cultural biases show themselves in this post.
In light of the current (and ongoing) discussion on editorializing titles on HN:
The article title “Why I moved to Miami & you should too” is very different from the HN submission “Before moving your startup to NYC or SFO”.
I don’t always agree with HN moderators’ title changes, but in this case, I can see why the title would be reversed (it hasn’t been yet, as of me writing this.)
Yeah, but I'll take the weather in Redwood City (mid peninsula) over the oppressive heat and humidity (and cockroaches and mosquitos) of Florida any day. For reference: I've lived both places.
Can someone explain to my why its an advantage to live in a state with zero income tax? Does it really matter how the state makes its money. If it does not come from your paycheck directly they get it other ways.
For instance in Florida you pay ~2% property tax on your assessed value and in california you pay ~1% on your purchased value. If you bought property at 500k and its appreciated to 1 million in CA you pay 5k in FL you pay 20k.
I'm now working for a San Jose startup from North Carolina ... and not from RTP, but from a much less tech-focused area. My wife's family lives here and that's great for our daughter. Our house here costs 20% what an equivalent house would have in San Mateo, my bay area home from 1995 to 2013.
This place has a nice downtown, a pretty diverse population (a lot of medical research and university action). The food's pretty good and somewhat varied (no Shalimar Pakistani unfortunately, I miss my Saag Gosht).
I miss the bay area but can now get back at least every two months or so to see old friends. If you can swing it, give it a try.
There are so many great places to live outside of SF and NYC. For the price of my old Bay Area rental, I rented the upper half of a gorgeous house in the Old Town of Park City, Utah. I was a 35 minute commute from Salt Lake (half of my SFBA commute) and my front doorstep was two short blocks from the ski lift. I could walk or ride my bike to everything that I needed. Sundance screenings were half a block away. In the summer, I could come home after work and still get a two hour mountain bike ride in, with the trails one block away. In the winter, I could ski all weekend or even get in some night runs after work at PCMR. Northern Utah has a thriving tech/startup community so there's plenty of local support.
Sadly, I left Utah to follow my wife's (military) career to Tacoma, WA. When she retires in 9 years, you can bet that we'll head back.
This is what all job postings should look like. That was amazing and it got me hooked until the end. If you are a Ruby developer looking for a new gig and was not surprisingly convinced at the end of that read, I don't know how job postings could possibly improve.
I definitely sympathize with the tax burden component. Here in New York, I only end up taking home half what I'm paid which is especially frustrating for a contractor who could theoretically be working remotely.
i went to college in central florida, and now reside in NYC paying $2800 for a small studio. it's been nearly a decade of putting up with expensive rent, lines, loud headache inducing noises everywhere, occasional first encounter with a rat on sidewalk, and yet, no plans to move out.
some reasons to to like nyc:
it's no Tokyo, but it's actually pretty big. each neighborhood has its own vibe, and there are dozens of those in manhattan alone. The food is simply unbeatable. 2000 restaurants at any given time with new ones opening up every week. I'm having a hard time visiting all the good restaurants in my neighborhood alone. it's not too big where there is still a neighborhood feel (i'm super friendly with small business owners and personnel in local shops, my neighbors). in my experience [majority of] people have been very nice and open. i keep meeting people from all over the world every weekend. i have friends that are starting and running businesses that give me energy to go on. shit ton of good jobs. models. rich history on every block.. great for photography hobby, looks awesome in winter with all the snow.. looks awesome in the fall with all the leaves.. looks awesome in the spring with blooming spring blossoms.. easy to meet intellectual people.. models. lots of healthy living options, some nyc areas have turned into shopping malls, but the city still has an edge. to name a few.. i love going to miami to relax and party, but can't imagine actually living there. possibly when i'm ready to "slow down" whatever that means?
"Lastly the weather is unparalleled from Nov thru March." Yeah and it's fucking gawdawful for the rest of the year. You can put on more clothes when it's cold but you can't put on more cold when it's hot. But you do get warm water for 6 months of the year. To each their own. Just don't tell me I'm stupid for picking mine. Tell me what's better. Fucking Hot and Humid is not a reason.
[+] [-] elchief|12 years ago|reply
I got to live in one of the owner's mansions, by myself. It had nine bathrooms.
Oddly enough, you hear a lot of French there. From the Haitian taxi drivers to the Snow Birds from Quebec. You can buy good Quebecois beer at some stores.
Miami itself is pretty nice. Reminds me of Vancouver and San Diego. Not a big fan of Cuban food, but the nightlife is top-notch. Beach scene is cool if you like beaches. It's pretty hot, but everything has crazy good A/C. Can fly to the Bahamas/Bermuda/St. Barth's whenever you want. Cheap flights up the East Coast too.
It helps to have a car, though they have a seemingly underused elevated public train. It's a good place to bike, as there are essentially no hills.
Regarding taxes, I was paying essentially the same income tax + payroll tax in Florida as I do in British Columbia (though BC has pretty low taxes). Plus free healthcare in Canada. Gas, booze, smokes are basically half the price in Florida as Canada though.
On the bad side...
Peeps are a little shallow, though there is an okay arts community. Not exactly an intellectual climate. I'm sure it can be found, but I didn't.
Palm Beach is a weird fucking place. Richest zip code in America (or was at the time I was there). West Palm Beach was the per-capita murder capital of America. Cops on the bridges to keep the homies out. Lots of boarded-up shops in West Palm during the height of the boom in 2008. Didn't make sense.
There were three murders (of rich white people) that I heard of during the year I was there. The locals are poorly educated, but there are lots of bright imports from around America that make it interesting.
So if you like your artsy, intellectual coffee-shop community of San Fran or Seattle, Miami might not be for you. But if you like clubbing at nights and laid-back days, it's pretty good.
[+] [-] igorgue|12 years ago|reply
And I gonna be the first one to say it I think... I remember during PyCodeconf 2 years ago many of the attendees from SF were really impressed by the amount of women here (beautiful ones) that even the most introverted (I am one of those) can find someone here. For girls too, also, since people are really obsessed with fitness here. That's pretty shallow but hey we didn't come out with Tinder ;-) you guys did.
The fun time we have at nightclubs (now there are many hipster bars and venues) is really unmatchable, I went out 3 times this week (it's just friday night) and the places were still going hard at 5am, not only that, there are places that close very late and open early (Will Call, from 12pm to 7am) or open at 3am (Mekka and Space). I might sound like a party guy but I'm not, this is very typical of Miami.
I'm not gonna tell you, you can find smarter people here, since that would be a lie, but artsy people? Probably, and very good looking.
About the affordability, I live in front of Bayfront Park (the biggest park in Downtown, walking distance from AAA) the apartment is beautiful, and the building is like living in a hotel, pool (with a bar and full staff), gym, spa, all that for only $1650 (and my neighbors pay a lot less, I'm just a bad negotiator), check it out: http://www.vizcayne.com/
[+] [-] drivingmissm|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chaostheory|12 years ago|reply
SF Bay Area vs South Florida
Food: I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Cuban food is awesome and it's the best South FL has to offer. Everything else is on the meh side. Almost every other metro is better with SF, LA, and NY being a lot better.
Weather: unless it's the late fall or early winter, it's really hot and humid, even at night. Yes parts of the Bay Area get hot, but it's not paired with humidity. Heavy humidity makes breathing feel heavier, as well as making you sweat a lot from just walking for 10 minutes outside. I still remember seeing some steam leaving our heads after some pickup basketball games. To make things worse, in some seasons mosquitos will be carrying some awful diseases like encephalitis so you'll need to wear long sleeves at night. In south Fl, prepare to have electric bills over 200-300 or even more depending on the size of your house. Not using air conditioning will make you miserable. Really the only place enjoyable outside is on the water.
Bay Area weather on the other hand is like having air conditioning outside. My relatives from FL always marvel at it whenever they visit.On the bright side you have more time to prepare for a hurricane than you do for an earthquake.
Outdoor Leisure: The ocean is where South FL and Miami really shine. Unlike the cold murky waters of the Bay Area, in South FL the ocean waters are crystal clear. Any watersport like surfing or scuba diving is way better. (On that note watch out for sharks. Due to damage to the environment, shark attacks in south fl has risen dramatically over the years with surfers being injured the most) However, due to erosion most of South FL's beaches are really just crushed rock and concrete which sucks. For real sand, you need access to either a private beach, an unpopular park to the north, or an island park reachable only by boat. Fishing in the ocean is great.
Everything else outdoorsy in South FL really sucks due to the humidity. Biking, camping, and hiking are just not as enjoyable as the Bay Area or even New York. There's no Tahoe nearby either. Though Disney World is way better than Disney Land. It also doesn't help that insects and spiders are a really big problem in south FL. Even indoors it's much worse than any other place in the US that I'm aware of (imagine an ant infestation within 5-10 minutes of dropping a few crumbs of food... Fl is also the spider capital of the world.)
Intellectual Community: South FL and Miami have a virtually non-existent one, as opposed to the Bay Area or NY. If you want that in the Southern US, you'll have to go to either Austin or the Atlanta metro instead. Conversation just isn't as good here compared to other major metros.
Nightlife: Miami beats the Bay Area hands down in this department in both quantity and quality. Though it gets old when you're not single.
General Stuff to do: I've always felt that there's a lot more going on in the Bay Area, Ny, and LA. Conversely there's not as much to do in south fl or Miami which is one reason people start families at a much younger age there.
Crime: Even though the stats are similar I always felt that crime is Miami is worse for one reason: really horrible crime can happen almost anywhere and at anytime (or at least that was my impression).
Cost of Living: South FL and Miami are significantly cheaper than the Bay Area even without factoring in the lack of state income tax. Of course you have also have to factor in the major business and job opportunities as well. Even though the startup scene is much better now, I still feel the biggest opportunities in South FL are real estate, food, and health / medical. As for the cost of real estate, you have to factor in the "snow birds" from the north east buying seasonal homes, so it's not as cheap as it should be though still a lot cheaper than the Bay Area
Misc: Although not required, it's wise to be fluent in Spanish in Miami. You also need a car for Miami and south FL. It's too inconvenient otherwise.
[+] [-] felideon|12 years ago|reply
If you don't value your life, sure. Miami traffic is crazy. If you don't get hit by the Fast & Furious wannabe, you'll get hit by an old lady who didn't stop at the light.
[+] [-] memracom|12 years ago|reply
And in case you are wondering what this has to do with Miami, I agree with the OP, just stay home and build your business (startup or otherwise) right there. You still have a ticket in the startup lottery if that is the way you want to go, but just like in SV itself, most of those startups don't last very long.
However, unlike SV, if you stay where you are then you have a better chance of building a normal business that grows incrementally by serving profitable customers, reinvesting profits, and taking a longer term view.
Readers of HN should be very aware that there are startups all over the place, and not just in American cities but in most countries of the world. Silicon Valley just isn't as special as it once was because computers and tech and Internet connectivity is now virtually everywhere that there are cities.
[+] [-] javajosh|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moron4hire|12 years ago|reply
That said, I think there is a mindset to enjoying the heat as well. You should probably not expect to go hiking through the woods in the summer in Florida. It's just not pleasant to be in such places in such humidity with such insects. If you live in Florida, your weekends should be spent at the beach (and please do not call it the shore, it's like calling it soda vs. pop). Sand will get into everywhere and everything, so learning how to deal with sand is a major part of enjoying Florida.
[+] [-] dualogy|12 years ago|reply
Back north, outside of 2 months of summer you keep having to adjust heating or put on/take off layers of clothing as the time of day progresses, and the slightest shiver gives me a "what is this, I shouldn't have to live this way, I give up, brain shut-down initiated" wave of misery :D hence, tropics suit me best and I do manage to get stuff done here. .
[+] [-] Miyamoto|12 years ago|reply
Anyway, I live in an area that reaches 43c in the summer and -6c in the winter. When I first moved here it definitely threw me off, but I got acclimated to it quickly.
[+] [-] bored|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] krschultz|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bane|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] general_failure|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LogicX|12 years ago|reply
Not quite so far south, great weather, big city amenities, even lower cost of living, fiber to the home...
[+] [-] goatslacker|12 years ago|reply
Miami is a great place to live if your priorities are partying. There are excellent night clubs and beautiful men and women everywhere.
The Bay Area holds an advantage over almost every point the OP made.
Rent is ~$2k for a 2 bedroom 2 bath if you want to live in a nice area in Coral Gables that isn't full of roaches, or was built in the 1940s and has dwarf-sized rooms. Rent is about the same in the peninsula. If you want to purchase it's a whole different story however. What costs ~$1m here is ~$300k there and probably in a lot better shape.
Food is a push. I must say the Bay Area probably offers a larger variety of food. Miami is mostly all Caribbean and Central/South American food which is excellent but not as varied as the Indian, Mediterranean, Afghan, Thai you see out here.
The neighborhoods are even more awesome here in the Bay Area. I say this because the strangers I meet on the street are a lot nicer than the strangers in Miami. There's a unique, wonderful, and rich history to the cities and towns in the Bay Area and there are a lot of neat places to explore like the Open Space preserves out West or the forrest in Santa Cruz. The only mountains in Florida are the smelly trash ones.
The Developer ecosystem pales in comparison. It's not even close and it won't be for a while. There are very little tech companies out there and no real major players. While it's very nice to see it blooming the reality is that it's still in its infancy and if you're moving out there just for the tech you're doing it wrong.
The weather. It's just terrible. It's like a sauna all the time. It feels like you're breathing in liquid water sometimes and it's difficult to make it from your house to your car (which will be a scorching inferno) without sweating.
The only great things Miami has that I truly miss is the water; it is beautiful and warm.
[+] [-] bdesimone|12 years ago|reply
* Miami is a great place to live if you prioritize partying. If you don't -- or are past that stage in your life -- you are going to find fewer people with things in common than in any other city I've lived.
* If we are generalizing...people are ruder and quicker to screw you over if the opportunity presents itself. And before you say it, no, it's not just because it's a big city. It's different here. It's worse here.
* South Florida drivers are statistically the worst in the country. Luckily I don't have to commute.
* Food is a push, I agree. I really miss the Asian-fare back home. Thankfully, I've found one really awesome Thai place to keep me sane.
* I don't participate in the tech market, as I work remotely for a CA based company.
* The neighborhoods downtown are not awesome. I live across the street [0] from OP and would not feel comfortable walking even a block east with my wife at night. Miami has
* The weather is really subjective. At first, I struggled with the humidity and heat. But now I love it. That and the water are probably the things I love most about Miami.
[0] : http://www.flickr.com/photos/bdesimone/8761046729/
If you have any questions... ask away.
[+] [-] wpietri|12 years ago|reply
One of the things I like about Silicon Valley is that people are generally focused on creating value rather than making money. (The difference being that I can make money in ways that transfer money from your pocket to mine, without a net increase in value.) But my impression of Florida is that there's a different orientation there.
For example, South Florida is currently the identity theft capital of the US. [1] At least a few years back, a few Florida counties had more spammers than any other country. [2] It seems like the dubious business culture goes back to the scam-heavy Florida land boom in the 1920s. [3] That had an echo in Florida swampland scams in the 60s and 70s. [4] And Miami was one of the worst cities in the recent US property bubble. [5]
Do you notice that difference in business orientation and business ethics?
[1] http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-02-26/business/fl-iden...
[2] http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2005-05-08/news/0505070596_...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_land_boom_of_the_1920s
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swampland_in_Florida
[5] http://us.spindices.com/indices/real-estate/sp-case-shiller-...
[+] [-] yarianluis|12 years ago|reply
Miami has quite a shallow population. I've also found as time goes on that as I develop new interests, there is poor community around most of them--the little things like rock climbing or playing ping pong. It's even extremely difficult to find a coffee shop to work out of when I visit family.
[+] [-] jamesaguilar|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DanBlake|12 years ago|reply
Also, while the cost of living is way down here, so is the income you will get from working a local job. I talked with a few people and there is scant a developer pulling in over 90k here. Compare that to SF where 100k salaries are the norm and it all evens out.
With that said, I like MB/Miami. The tech scene is in its infancy though. I don't believe there is any real institutional venture funds here. Basically, raising a 'A' round is going to be very difficult. You might be able to pull it off with latin american based VC but it will be a struggle.
I will say that the people I have met so far out here have been very nice and welcoming and there is a very good vibe. I am looking forward to building things out here.
[+] [-] dnishimura|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] auston|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] edw519|12 years ago|reply
Pros:
Cons:[+] [-] baak|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stonlyb|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] auston|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justanother|12 years ago|reply
Once you get away from the urban nightmares, Florida isn't so bad though. Admittedly not everyone likes the climate, but I run a few miles every morning, even in the summer, and getting on a boat helps to cool off. No malls or dance clubs, and almost no big-box stores or fast food. But we do have Amazon Prime and a fishing pole.
[+] [-] baak|12 years ago|reply
Suburban Miami wasn't bad at least... I certainly don't remember any gunshots growing up there. Now if you lived near Overtown, West Perrine, Goulds, etc. then yeah, you had to deal with gunshots. Same with every major city though.
[+] [-] hellbanTHIS|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nfriedly|12 years ago|reply
Mind if I ask why you still own the place?
[+] [-] crystaln|12 years ago|reply
I'll take a hovel in SF over a mansion in Miami any day.
Besides, the defense of Miami in this article stinks of all that is wrong with America - that it's filled with great places to consume. Don't get me wrong, I love my fancy hipster bars, restaurants, and shops - but those aren't what makes SF the best city for me.
[+] [-] nilkn|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmduke|12 years ago|reply
The population of Miami is around 410,000. When someone tries to "comparing the people of X", where X is a population of 410,000, I think the bigger insight is to be gleaned from the writer's preconceptions than their conclusions.
[+] [-] grogenaut|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brianbreslin|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] analog31|12 years ago|reply
Something to consider is whether or not you've got kids. Right now my family lives in an affordable neighborhood with a tolerant culture and excellent public schools that my two kids attend. In Texas, it seemed more like getting a good secular education for your kids was something that you had to pay a lot for, one way or the other -- either living in a super affluent neighborhood or finding private schools. Financially, I think that I may actually come out ahead living in one of the so-called "education states."
Granted, my cultural biases show themselves in this post.
[+] [-] Samuel_Michon|12 years ago|reply
The article title “Why I moved to Miami & you should too” is very different from the HN submission “Before moving your startup to NYC or SFO”.
I don’t always agree with HN moderators’ title changes, but in this case, I can see why the title would be reversed (it hasn’t been yet, as of me writing this.)
[+] [-] stonlyb|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] excitom|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mp3tricord|12 years ago|reply
For instance in Florida you pay ~2% property tax on your assessed value and in california you pay ~1% on your purchased value. If you bought property at 500k and its appreciated to 1 million in CA you pay 5k in FL you pay 20k.
[+] [-] nwatson|12 years ago|reply
This place has a nice downtown, a pretty diverse population (a lot of medical research and university action). The food's pretty good and somewhat varied (no Shalimar Pakistani unfortunately, I miss my Saag Gosht).
I miss the bay area but can now get back at least every two months or so to see old friends. If you can swing it, give it a try.
[+] [-] sanskritabelt|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chrissnell|12 years ago|reply
Sadly, I left Utah to follow my wife's (military) career to Tacoma, WA. When she retires in 9 years, you can bet that we'll head back.
[+] [-] pearjuice|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] morgante|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] judk|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SonicSoul|12 years ago|reply
some reasons to to like nyc: it's no Tokyo, but it's actually pretty big. each neighborhood has its own vibe, and there are dozens of those in manhattan alone. The food is simply unbeatable. 2000 restaurants at any given time with new ones opening up every week. I'm having a hard time visiting all the good restaurants in my neighborhood alone. it's not too big where there is still a neighborhood feel (i'm super friendly with small business owners and personnel in local shops, my neighbors). in my experience [majority of] people have been very nice and open. i keep meeting people from all over the world every weekend. i have friends that are starting and running businesses that give me energy to go on. shit ton of good jobs. models. rich history on every block.. great for photography hobby, looks awesome in winter with all the snow.. looks awesome in the fall with all the leaves.. looks awesome in the spring with blooming spring blossoms.. easy to meet intellectual people.. models. lots of healthy living options, some nyc areas have turned into shopping malls, but the city still has an edge. to name a few.. i love going to miami to relax and party, but can't imagine actually living there. possibly when i'm ready to "slow down" whatever that means?
[+] [-] grogenaut|12 years ago|reply