Because the intent isn't to terrorize or murder innocent people, but to hit "military" targets. It's akin to dropping bombs on military targets during WW II. Just because they are military targets doesn't mean innocent people aren't killed. So it's classified as something else. And before you go shooting the messenger, keep in mind your asking about classification. If you want to disagree and suggest that it's still murder, feel free to argue endlessly with others. But it's important to realize what you are then suggesting, and the ramifications.
The US military gets to define what is and what isn't murder. Killing anyone in a poor country who isn't a child or too old to fire a machine gun is by definition never murder according to America.
Middle east countries hate United States due to reckless behavior like this. US kills thousands of civilians overseas and they do the same to US in form of terrorist attacks.
With these senseless attacks, US is spreading hate and putting US citizens at risk.
Putting 21 year old kids* brought up on video-games (esp the "Call of Duty" and "Battlefield" crop) all their lives in charge of drones with very video-game like setup and interactions sounds like a pretty good recipe for disaster[1].
* Yes, I know they are not all that young but I have seen photos in the news and I would be surprised if they were any older.
My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill innocent Pakistanis despicable and illegal.
At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity of "wronged population of righteous Muslims") played in dragging their country to such a pathetic state where their sovereignty doesn't mean shit. A state when one of their erstwhile allies kill their citizens with impunity and political class doesn't do much about it apart from some token grandstanding. Much as I want this navel gazing to happen, I am also aware that ruling political classes of countries are typically so sociopathic that they are incapable of feeling responsible, a fact made very convenient now that there is mean old US to point to.
India managed to avoid this trajectory. Rather than patting ourselves on the back, I am acutely aware of how close a shave it was and still is. There are strong political forces in India that want to make it a Hindu hegemony. Their tools of propaganda are just the same and quite effective, the same "wronged population of righteous Hindus that meant and did nobody any harm". If that happens we wont be that far away from a Hindu version of current Pakistan. This thought terrifies me.
@einhverfr I am replying here because I strongly suspect that what I say will touch many a nerve and will lead to a long thread hijacking the original post, and by that I dont mean you personally. Please feel free to respond in the same way. Encouraging the wronged muslim identity and consequent Jihadism was very much an "in center" phenomena in Pakistan rather than the machinations of some fringe local state. Note the use of 'was' these things go back several decades in history. I think Pakistan under Jinnah would have fared much better had he lived longer.
@r0h1n spot on.
@mcantelon sure they did, a valid question is what did people in charge then do about it.
@prometheuspk India escaped and does, but just barely. It's a complicated mess, there are political parties that exploit the fact that many in India want to avoid the religious hegemony. These parties have been getting away with things that they should not be allowed to get away with. This fuels its own blowback...You mention Malala. Malala for US is I think convenient PR fodder, something useful to screen/decorate their drone program with. I dont even think they do it conciously. Everyone wants to see themselves as compassionate and fair.
@zzsleepzz thank you for illustrating my point.
Heh! there you go. downvotes start rolling in, did not expect any different though.
Interesting, the story suddenly drops out from first page inspite of 90 upvotes in less than 3 hrs. Seems it just got flagged. That I did not see coming.
You're completely right about the relative trajectories of India and Pakistan (full disclosure: I'm Indian). I suspect most HNers will not be aware of their shared history, painful separation and subsequent diverging paths.
That said, no country ought to be above international law, even when they are targeting hapless & innocent civilians of a failing or despotic regime. That is the primary point here.
As a Pakistani I can say that our current leadership has no spine.
In addition to that the general population has been led to believe that everyone is out to get them (i.e. The righteous Muslims). You should have seen the stuff said about Malala. Even she was some kind of conspiracy against Muslims.
The TTP is real, no doubt about that (you'll find deniers here too). But the political resolve lacks because of no majority public support of the army operation in Waziristan.
India was saved from the hegemony due to public resolve to fight for it. Here everyone is either too demotivated or on the wrong side of the equation.
I would factor in self-righteousness too (e.g. Mumtaz Qadri). Once that entitlement mindset ends, only then will things become clear to the public.
EDIT: BTW you should check this (http://on.fb.me/17XcV7p) out to see the Malala bashing & the distrust of anyone but themselves.
Interesting then that the US backs the Pakistani shenanigans so throughly, do you include the US in the political class that need to take a look at themselves? I wouldn't claim to have a lot of confidence in my numbers, but the following links state greater dollars to Pakistan, by a fairly significant factor. $98.3 million for fiscal 2013, versus $2 billion for Pakistan. It's mostly military aid for Pakistan, because what they need is more weapons.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/20/world/asia/aid-to-pakistan...
I don't know about that second paragraph. The key issue is that you have only a weak central government and a lot of regional autonomy. This has costs and benefits. The costs are that the central authorities have less control. The benefits is that they don't have to use resources that could help find kidnappers in Islamabad to control tribesmen who are fiercely independent.
In the end, what's needing is an understanding that drones have two problems fundamentally associated with them. The first is that they are low-knowledge operations and thus the fact is that it is likely that the drone operators don't have a clear picture of what is really going on, and the second is that a single drone operator may be operating many drones at once, increasing the likelihood of mistakes.
If we are going to engage in targetted killings, nothing beats boots on the ground.
There's no such thing as Hindu extremism or Hindu terrorism. It's just a reaction to atrocious Islamic terrorism activities that happened/happening in India. The increase of jihadi extremists and sleeper cells in India are what that terrifies Indians.
all this after the person authorizing these has be awarded Nobel Peace Prize. Not respecting integrity of country and striking it at will because one can, is recipe for disaster. May be they wont strike back now but not many forget these things.
It argues its campaign is conducted "consistent with all
applicable domestic and international law". Unofficial
reports, however, have suggested that hundreds have been
killed in Pakistan alone, with up to 200 children killed.
So how exactly are drone strikes in countries we are not at war with "consistent with all applicable domestic and international law". I imagine that it should at least be considered murder according to Pakistani law (and other countries where these strikes take place) and that it would be within the rights of these countries to demand extradition of the individuals complicit in the crime so that can stand trial in Pakistan (and other countries). The US obviously won't acquiesce to extradition requests for the crime of murder that it considers legitimate, but that doesn't mean that those committing crimes cannot be arrested while traveling abroad to countries that do have extradition treaties with Pakistan and other countries in question.
What international laws allow this to continue?
If I were a citizen of a country where these remote drone attacks were taking place and no war has been declared, I would be campaigning to put every person directly responsible on the list of criminals wanted internationally and have them arrested by my allies if those criminals travel to my allies' country.
I would be far more comfortable with what is going on if there were a requirement that all drone operators had to be citizens of the countries being targeted. They can be supervised and trained by Americans, but the trigger must be pulled by a fellow countryman. If we can't find people to do that, then we need to cease what we are doing or formally declare war via a Congressional vote. Alternatively, we could request or even fund that Pakistan and other countries send in police to arrest those responsible with a drone on standby and only send in the drone if the person refuses to be arrested peacefully. The moment they fire back on the Pakistani police with weapons, the drone would be sent in to resolve the conflict. Either way, fellow citizens of those targeted should be directly involved in these attacks or they should not occur at all. Sentencing people to death without trial is un-American.
What happens when we've killed as many innocents as were killed on September 11th on US soil? Death of innocents from above is simply unjustified.
[+] [-] r0h1n|12 years ago|reply
WikiLeaks shows US pressure for war crimes immunity - https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/55239
[+] [-] peterkelly|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jasonlotito|12 years ago|reply
War sucks. Innocent die.
Cue the pedantic replies.
[+] [-] dsil|12 years ago|reply
I'm not 100% sure if this is considered "collateral damage", but I think this explains the situation in general: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damage#International...
[+] [-] codex|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] einhverfr|12 years ago|reply
Now it could be a war crime, and indeed arguably we tried Milosevic for less.
[+] [-] 77ko|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] georgemcbay|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sneak|12 years ago|reply
I certainly define it this way. Many others do, too.
[+] [-] asadlionpk|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RealGeek|12 years ago|reply
With these senseless attacks, US is spreading hate and putting US citizens at risk.
[+] [-] allochthon|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rurounijones|12 years ago|reply
Putting 21 year old kids* brought up on video-games (esp the "Call of Duty" and "Battlefield" crop) all their lives in charge of drones with very video-game like setup and interactions sounds like a pretty good recipe for disaster[1].
* Yes, I know they are not all that young but I have seen photos in the news and I would be surprised if they were any older.
[1] "Scenario fulfillment" implicated in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
[+] [-] 77ko|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] srean|12 years ago|reply
At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity of "wronged population of righteous Muslims") played in dragging their country to such a pathetic state where their sovereignty doesn't mean shit. A state when one of their erstwhile allies kill their citizens with impunity and political class doesn't do much about it apart from some token grandstanding. Much as I want this navel gazing to happen, I am also aware that ruling political classes of countries are typically so sociopathic that they are incapable of feeling responsible, a fact made very convenient now that there is mean old US to point to.
India managed to avoid this trajectory. Rather than patting ourselves on the back, I am acutely aware of how close a shave it was and still is. There are strong political forces in India that want to make it a Hindu hegemony. Their tools of propaganda are just the same and quite effective, the same "wronged population of righteous Hindus that meant and did nobody any harm". If that happens we wont be that far away from a Hindu version of current Pakistan. This thought terrifies me.
@einhverfr I am replying here because I strongly suspect that what I say will touch many a nerve and will lead to a long thread hijacking the original post, and by that I dont mean you personally. Please feel free to respond in the same way. Encouraging the wronged muslim identity and consequent Jihadism was very much an "in center" phenomena in Pakistan rather than the machinations of some fringe local state. Note the use of 'was' these things go back several decades in history. I think Pakistan under Jinnah would have fared much better had he lived longer.
@r0h1n spot on.
@mcantelon sure they did, a valid question is what did people in charge then do about it.
@prometheuspk India escaped and does, but just barely. It's a complicated mess, there are political parties that exploit the fact that many in India want to avoid the religious hegemony. These parties have been getting away with things that they should not be allowed to get away with. This fuels its own blowback...You mention Malala. Malala for US is I think convenient PR fodder, something useful to screen/decorate their drone program with. I dont even think they do it conciously. Everyone wants to see themselves as compassionate and fair.
@zzsleepzz thank you for illustrating my point.
Heh! there you go. downvotes start rolling in, did not expect any different though.
Interesting, the story suddenly drops out from first page inspite of 90 upvotes in less than 3 hrs. Seems it just got flagged. That I did not see coming.
[+] [-] r0h1n|12 years ago|reply
That said, no country ought to be above international law, even when they are targeting hapless & innocent civilians of a failing or despotic regime. That is the primary point here.
[+] [-] prometheuspk|12 years ago|reply
In addition to that the general population has been led to believe that everyone is out to get them (i.e. The righteous Muslims). You should have seen the stuff said about Malala. Even she was some kind of conspiracy against Muslims.
The TTP is real, no doubt about that (you'll find deniers here too). But the political resolve lacks because of no majority public support of the army operation in Waziristan.
India was saved from the hegemony due to public resolve to fight for it. Here everyone is either too demotivated or on the wrong side of the equation.
I would factor in self-righteousness too (e.g. Mumtaz Qadri). Once that entitlement mindset ends, only then will things become clear to the public.
EDIT: BTW you should check this (http://on.fb.me/17XcV7p) out to see the Malala bashing & the distrust of anyone but themselves.
[+] [-] lostlogin|12 years ago|reply
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-04-15/india...
[+] [-] mcantelon|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] einhverfr|12 years ago|reply
In the end, what's needing is an understanding that drones have two problems fundamentally associated with them. The first is that they are low-knowledge operations and thus the fact is that it is likely that the drone operators don't have a clear picture of what is really going on, and the second is that a single drone operator may be operating many drones at once, increasing the likelihood of mistakes.
If we are going to engage in targetted killings, nothing beats boots on the ground.
[+] [-] snambi|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zzsleepzz|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] zzsleepzz|12 years ago|reply
There's no such thing as Hindu extremism or Hindu terrorism. It's just a reaction to atrocious Islamic terrorism activities that happened/happening in India. The increase of jihadi extremists and sleeper cells in India are what that terrifies Indians.
[+] [-] nebulasri|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ganeshmr|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] malandrew|12 years ago|reply
What international laws allow this to continue?
If I were a citizen of a country where these remote drone attacks were taking place and no war has been declared, I would be campaigning to put every person directly responsible on the list of criminals wanted internationally and have them arrested by my allies if those criminals travel to my allies' country.
I would be far more comfortable with what is going on if there were a requirement that all drone operators had to be citizens of the countries being targeted. They can be supervised and trained by Americans, but the trigger must be pulled by a fellow countryman. If we can't find people to do that, then we need to cease what we are doing or formally declare war via a Congressional vote. Alternatively, we could request or even fund that Pakistan and other countries send in police to arrest those responsible with a drone on standby and only send in the drone if the person refuses to be arrested peacefully. The moment they fire back on the Pakistani police with weapons, the drone would be sent in to resolve the conflict. Either way, fellow citizens of those targeted should be directly involved in these attacks or they should not occur at all. Sentencing people to death without trial is un-American.
What happens when we've killed as many innocents as were killed on September 11th on US soil? Death of innocents from above is simply unjustified.
[+] [-] bruceb|12 years ago|reply
It is not our country. Let them rail against America without us pouring gas on the flames by us being there.
I will go back to more startup related comments.