Those people claiming ISRO does it at a shoe string budget, because they reuse yes they do. But we are talking of a factor of more 10 here.
Let me put facts on ground. Go and visit any ISRO campus in India. See the kind of offices they work in, they kind of food canteens they eat lunch at, they kind of buses they travel in and take a look at how much they are paid. I assure you will be shocked. In fact shocked will be a mild statement to make. These people work on ordinary steel tables, with fans over their heads. Eat the 15 rupee rice-curry meal and travel in 20 year old buses. Well forget all that. Take a look at pictures of ISRO available over the internet, they look like to be taken in some one's garage than a space research organization.
Your average MacOS/iOS app development start up has better working conditions and infrastructure than any ISRO office in India. I'm not talking just about the work place infrastructure. Even the working gear, stuff like computers etc.
For the salaries and the net compensation ISRO offers no ambitious well qualified youth in India would be willing to work there- I'm even surprised they have even gotten this far. Note, you are comparing a salary for something like 20K per month with a salary of something like 100K a month Google offers. You get peanuts for building the most important pieces of technology in the history of mankind, compared to building websites for sharing cat pictures.
This is working on shoe string budgets to its very extreme. I hope these people get better funding in the future.
And yeah for those people too worked up about spending some 100th decimal rounding error of India's budget on a mars project. That is doing far more benefit to India's reputation, than a yet-another-scam-infested scheme.
I used to stay in a paying guest accomodation during my first job. My roommate was a guy who had just joined ISRO - we graduated same year but from different colleges. And I also had a chance to interact closely with 2 other friends who were working with ISRO at that time (one was a senior in college).
His payscale started at Rs.8000 per month (in 2001 that was less than $200usd). He was a production engineer. He would be up for next revision of payscale & promotion pending a review in 4 years! He knew that.
I used to wonder what keeps them motivated and I used to constantly question them. One common thread you find based on these conversations is that they are extremely satisfied with work - each of them used to say that what they are working on is UNIQUE that nobody else in ISRO is responsible for. And buck stops with them. They knew that.
That sense of ownership and the way the employees connect to a much larger cause is something unbelievable at ISRO, in my perspective. I used to be in awe of every conversation about his superiors, the work and their perspective of the organization in general.
I think it is an interesting case study in organizational behavior and what keeps you motivated with factors other than just money.
Teaching is another profession I think requires similar mindset. ISRO somehow hires the right kind of people, the employees within the organization are not so flamboyant setting examples for new hires and helps them connect in a way it makes people see contribution to a bigger cause.
Just my observation from what I have seen from close quarters.
BTW, it is also given that he knew they get pension after retirement, medical benefits & all such taken care of for his entire life because he is part of the organization.
Would love to read if there are any case studies on this.
Russian space program was in similar conditions for the past 20 years. I have a couple of former classmates who graduated from one of the best math high schools and math universities in Russia, got great grades, won programming competitions and now work as low-level embedded C hackers, writing firmware for space chips. (It seems like the two of them are making every career decision together — they even played wow with characters 'malloc' and 'calloc' side by side.) They earn about a third or a quarter of their "market value" and do php web development on the side to get some money, but have no desire to change their jobs, because they love what they do.
My dad worked at ISRO for 30+ years and is now retired - so what I'm saying has some merit.
I don't know where you are getting the impression that ISRO engineers aren't paid well. Sure, they are not paid Google salaries but they are no way paid peanuts. A fresh engineering graduate will stand to get around 40K INR per month. Please not that if you are not landing up a software job, in India, it's a pretty shitty market out there for other disciplines. ISRO offers are great when you consider for example, what a mechanical engineer makes in other private companies.
Working environment is also comparable to any software facility. Please visit the ISRO facility in Bangalore on old airport road. They have some of the most green and spacious campuses. I don't have pictures because security is super tight and they don't even let you carry your cellphones inside.
For a long time, ISRO offered some of the best retirement benefits. My dad and mom don't have to worry about their healthcare costs for the rest of their lives and my dad gets a handsome pension to take care of his day to day living expenses. This has changed with the sixth pay commission.
ISRO also offers housing in some prime areas, near the office facilities so that you don't have to commute much. Of course, not everyone gets this benefit and it's based more on a lottery basis.
The schooling for your kids is almost free in the Kendriya Vidyala schools - and some of those schools offer top notch education.
While you are employed, you pay next to nothing for healthcare (including surgeries). There is the CGHS card that you flash in almost all major hospitals and you are taken care of.
As if this was not all enough, you get to work on some really state of the art stuff that others can't even imagine. There is absolutely no room for error. You just can't say 'oh crap I'll just fix that bug'. One bug might destroy a satellite or screw up the rocket launch. So, there is a lot of merit in building such mission critical systems and a ton of satisfaction. This satisfaction cannot be compared with money.
During launch days, my dad would work 3-4 days at a stretch without even a phone call in between. Such was the pressure.
So, working at ISRO has a ton of merits and satisfaction. It's not for everyone though. There is no glamour as such in the job. You don't have crazy parties or drunken revelries or annual outings to Hawaii. There is an enormous amount of bureaucracy and bull shit that you have to deal with. But for an engineer who loves to build mission critical applications - the place is a heaven.
Generally, I would have simply agreed with what you said. (and what you said is true)
But! Stop complaining at this one moment. And take a look at the achievements of this country's people. They don't have world's best food, world-class infrastructure and not enough money to hire world class talent either. Probably they have world-class corruption in the country.
How many countries achieve this after having these many "core" problems. Salute to the people who achieved this feat.
Agree with most of what you say. But before jumping into portraying a shoe string salary take into account the "corruption adjusted benefits" that Google and other companes could not offer [http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/behind-the-sband-s...]
I don't know how different are the work environment of ISRO and DRDO but I guess it must be same. One of my colleague at Tata Consultancy Services, an ABAP developer, left his job with decent salary and an opportunity to go to UK for an offshore project of 2 years. Why? To join DRDO at salary 4 times less than what he was getting coz he hated his work and was passionate about working on something that is not just interesting but also makes a difference.
`Project chief Subbiah Arunan says he has not taken a vacation in the last 15 months, sleeping at Isro's satellite centre in Bangalore and going home for "about one or two hours every day". `[1]
Every time India space programs discussion comes out a group of people will bring up India's poverty and other problem that should be fixed instead of investing on space program.
I used to be one of those guys (I am from Bangladesh), then I looked at the actual cost of this space program and realized that its not a lot of money (~$70 Million) even by India's standard. For example, in india's domestic cricket tournament (IPL) one of their franchise was sold for $370 million.
I also don't buy the wholesale "you shouldn't do x, unless y is achieved/fixed" argument. It might apply to some instances, for example india defense budget is about $46 billion, a big portion of it could have been certainly spent to alleviate the living condition of poor Indians in general. But most of the problem in India and other south-east asian countries are corruption and inefficiencies, not (always) lack of funds.
The irony of those complaints is that programs such as this one have a tremendous positive impact on industry and the economy. Think about what happens when you have a group of engineers and technicians who successfully build, launch, and operate a Mars orbiter. What sort of skills and experience do they acquire, what sort of impact do they have on the industrial base? What do they go on to do later in life?
And think about the proof of Indian engineering and manufacturing that this sort of mission provides. How much more likely are people to buy satellites or launch services from India? Or Indian made aircraft? Or even just consumer goods?
R&D spending often has a multi-fold positive impact on the economy, and I think that is likely to apply for this mission.
Every single time India does something in Space, the bigots come out from the woodwork: but India is so poor! Let them solve poverty/hunger/education/water/toilets/ice-cream first, and then worry about space.
When JFK pledged to put a man on the moon in 1961, the US did not even have the Civil Rights Act[1]. Millions of blacks lived in poverty, and were denied basic rights. Schools were segregated. In large areas of the South, blacks were denied the right to vote. There were lynchings. People were being killed just for demanding the right to vote. And Vietnam War was picking up steam.
And you know what? The US still said that getting a man on the moon amidst all this was a worthwhile goal.
Could you state your argument more precisely, please?
The original argument would be "don't do Space, solve povery/hunger/education...".
You point out that "poverty/hunger/education..." have improved despite Space.
This does only partly contradict the original argument, since there are plenty of severe and urgent problems today, including some of those from the 1961.
Additionally, can you explain the usage of the word "bigot"? Seems harsh.
Thanks JD. Good coverage on Mangalyan.
For many Indians who are criticizing this Mission saying that the money would be better spent on toilets or teachers, this is an eye opener: Why Explore space http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a...
I have met a lot of Brilliant people from India that have blow me away on their technical knowledge. What is stopping them from helping to fix the infrastructure problem that India has? A lot of educated people seem to be seeking a way out to another country. While most of the people in India are living in poverty and have no chance of a decent education.
Forget Mars, for India the problems are too great at home.
Unfortunately the massive social problems of India (or any society for that matter) are not fixable by technology for the most part. For the part that are susceptible to a technological (and managerial) solution, there's plenty of interesting work going on.. e.g.
http://www.infowars.com/cashless-society-india-implements-fi...
From the Indian perspective, one has to flip the question. The question is how did the rest of the world get so advanced ? Unless Indians travel elsewhere they will not find out.
Similar to SpaceX and most other space programs, they take from the research and technology developed previously to implement their own version.
For example, NASA developed different forms/methods of long distance communications which allow the spacecraft to communicate with the ground. That 63 million for development of the ISROs Mars Mission takes advantage of that. Saving cost.
Further, because some to many of the parts have been produced for decades and NASA retired their rockets, there are parts "on the cheap."
Good launch and good start. All 3 stages complete. It's in space in a matter of seconds. Need another 45 mins to declare launch success and 10 months to reach mars!
Former Isro chairman G Madhavan Nair on Monday said, “This has been a tradition. I had also gone to Tirupati before the Chandrayaan mission.”
But more than religious beliefs, he said these temple visits helped des-stress the mind and offer clarity.
But beyond this, do superstitions and other beliefs have a hold on the scientists?
“Not really,” said Mylswamy Annadurai, the project director of moon missions Chandrayaan 1 and Chandrayaan 2. “I read a page of Bhagawad Gita daily and will do so on Tuesday.”
He added, “But yes I have just got a jar of peanuts and a good luck card from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory-Nasa. This is a very nice gesture. I will distribute these peanuts in my office on Tuesday morning.”
Scientists at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in National Aeronautics and Space Administration (Nasa) consider circulation of peanuts auspicious.
[+] [-] kamaal|12 years ago|reply
Let me put facts on ground. Go and visit any ISRO campus in India. See the kind of offices they work in, they kind of food canteens they eat lunch at, they kind of buses they travel in and take a look at how much they are paid. I assure you will be shocked. In fact shocked will be a mild statement to make. These people work on ordinary steel tables, with fans over their heads. Eat the 15 rupee rice-curry meal and travel in 20 year old buses. Well forget all that. Take a look at pictures of ISRO available over the internet, they look like to be taken in some one's garage than a space research organization.
Your average MacOS/iOS app development start up has better working conditions and infrastructure than any ISRO office in India. I'm not talking just about the work place infrastructure. Even the working gear, stuff like computers etc.
For the salaries and the net compensation ISRO offers no ambitious well qualified youth in India would be willing to work there- I'm even surprised they have even gotten this far. Note, you are comparing a salary for something like 20K per month with a salary of something like 100K a month Google offers. You get peanuts for building the most important pieces of technology in the history of mankind, compared to building websites for sharing cat pictures.
This is working on shoe string budgets to its very extreme. I hope these people get better funding in the future.
And yeah for those people too worked up about spending some 100th decimal rounding error of India's budget on a mars project. That is doing far more benefit to India's reputation, than a yet-another-scam-infested scheme.
[+] [-] skrish|12 years ago|reply
His payscale started at Rs.8000 per month (in 2001 that was less than $200usd). He was a production engineer. He would be up for next revision of payscale & promotion pending a review in 4 years! He knew that.
I used to wonder what keeps them motivated and I used to constantly question them. One common thread you find based on these conversations is that they are extremely satisfied with work - each of them used to say that what they are working on is UNIQUE that nobody else in ISRO is responsible for. And buck stops with them. They knew that.
That sense of ownership and the way the employees connect to a much larger cause is something unbelievable at ISRO, in my perspective. I used to be in awe of every conversation about his superiors, the work and their perspective of the organization in general.
I think it is an interesting case study in organizational behavior and what keeps you motivated with factors other than just money.
Teaching is another profession I think requires similar mindset. ISRO somehow hires the right kind of people, the employees within the organization are not so flamboyant setting examples for new hires and helps them connect in a way it makes people see contribution to a bigger cause.
Just my observation from what I have seen from close quarters.
BTW, it is also given that he knew they get pension after retirement, medical benefits & all such taken care of for his entire life because he is part of the organization.
Would love to read if there are any case studies on this.
[+] [-] golergka|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] deepGem|12 years ago|reply
I don't know where you are getting the impression that ISRO engineers aren't paid well. Sure, they are not paid Google salaries but they are no way paid peanuts. A fresh engineering graduate will stand to get around 40K INR per month. Please not that if you are not landing up a software job, in India, it's a pretty shitty market out there for other disciplines. ISRO offers are great when you consider for example, what a mechanical engineer makes in other private companies.
Working environment is also comparable to any software facility. Please visit the ISRO facility in Bangalore on old airport road. They have some of the most green and spacious campuses. I don't have pictures because security is super tight and they don't even let you carry your cellphones inside.
For a long time, ISRO offered some of the best retirement benefits. My dad and mom don't have to worry about their healthcare costs for the rest of their lives and my dad gets a handsome pension to take care of his day to day living expenses. This has changed with the sixth pay commission.
ISRO also offers housing in some prime areas, near the office facilities so that you don't have to commute much. Of course, not everyone gets this benefit and it's based more on a lottery basis.
The schooling for your kids is almost free in the Kendriya Vidyala schools - and some of those schools offer top notch education.
While you are employed, you pay next to nothing for healthcare (including surgeries). There is the CGHS card that you flash in almost all major hospitals and you are taken care of.
As if this was not all enough, you get to work on some really state of the art stuff that others can't even imagine. There is absolutely no room for error. You just can't say 'oh crap I'll just fix that bug'. One bug might destroy a satellite or screw up the rocket launch. So, there is a lot of merit in building such mission critical systems and a ton of satisfaction. This satisfaction cannot be compared with money.
During launch days, my dad would work 3-4 days at a stretch without even a phone call in between. Such was the pressure.
So, working at ISRO has a ton of merits and satisfaction. It's not for everyone though. There is no glamour as such in the job. You don't have crazy parties or drunken revelries or annual outings to Hawaii. There is an enormous amount of bureaucracy and bull shit that you have to deal with. But for an engineer who loves to build mission critical applications - the place is a heaven.
[+] [-] anupshinde|12 years ago|reply
But! Stop complaining at this one moment. And take a look at the achievements of this country's people. They don't have world's best food, world-class infrastructure and not enough money to hire world class talent either. Probably they have world-class corruption in the country.
How many countries achieve this after having these many "core" problems. Salute to the people who achieved this feat.
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] iamshs|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] suhair|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anujkk|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stokedmartin|12 years ago|reply
[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-24547892
[+] [-] mebesilly|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] pavs|12 years ago|reply
I used to be one of those guys (I am from Bangladesh), then I looked at the actual cost of this space program and realized that its not a lot of money (~$70 Million) even by India's standard. For example, in india's domestic cricket tournament (IPL) one of their franchise was sold for $370 million.
I also don't buy the wholesale "you shouldn't do x, unless y is achieved/fixed" argument. It might apply to some instances, for example india defense budget is about $46 billion, a big portion of it could have been certainly spent to alleviate the living condition of poor Indians in general. But most of the problem in India and other south-east asian countries are corruption and inefficiencies, not (always) lack of funds.
[+] [-] InclinedPlane|12 years ago|reply
And think about the proof of Indian engineering and manufacturing that this sort of mission provides. How much more likely are people to buy satellites or launch services from India? Or Indian made aircraft? Or even just consumer goods?
R&D spending often has a multi-fold positive impact on the economy, and I think that is likely to apply for this mission.
[+] [-] discardorama|12 years ago|reply
When JFK pledged to put a man on the moon in 1961, the US did not even have the Civil Rights Act[1]. Millions of blacks lived in poverty, and were denied basic rights. Schools were segregated. In large areas of the South, blacks were denied the right to vote. There were lynchings. People were being killed just for demanding the right to vote. And Vietnam War was picking up steam.
And you know what? The US still said that getting a man on the moon amidst all this was a worthwhile goal.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964
[+] [-] UweSchmidt|12 years ago|reply
The original argument would be "don't do Space, solve povery/hunger/education...".
You point out that "poverty/hunger/education..." have improved despite Space.
This does only partly contradict the original argument, since there are plenty of severe and urgent problems today, including some of those from the 1961.
Additionally, can you explain the usage of the word "bigot"? Seems harsh.
[+] [-] pavs|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swatkat|12 years ago|reply
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2013/1031123...
[+] [-] shared4you|12 years ago|reply
http://isro.org/scripts/livewebcast-mars-orbiter.aspx
http://isro.org/scripts/livewebcast-marsorbiter.aspx
http://webcast.gov.in/live/
Text-only updates: http://www.isro.org/pslv-c25/c25-status.aspx
[+] [-] swatkat|12 years ago|reply
T+260 secs. PS-2 separated. PS-3 lit.
PS-3 burn out. PSLV enters a long coasting of 28 minutes, after which 4th stage will be triggered.
T + 32 minutes. Coasting almost done. Stage 4 ignition in few moments. Altitude is a bit higher due to over-performance.
PS-4 started. 4th stage performance normal. Yay!!
T+44 minutes. PS-4 cutoff. Spacecraft separation success :) Spacecraft successfully placed in elliptical orbit around Earth. 300 day long journey begins now.
http://i.imgur.com/NX9MNsF.jpg
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] gopalv|12 years ago|reply
http://tambrahmrage.tumblr.com/post/66074106804/mangalyaan
[+] [-] ing33k|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paraschopra|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yogrish|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wil421|12 years ago|reply
Forget Mars, for India the problems are too great at home.
[+] [-] chetanahuja|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dharmach|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ruchir|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _anshulk|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swatkat|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] niyazpk|12 years ago|reply
JD, I see that you are using wordpress. If you haven't already installed any caching plugin, please do: http://codex.wordpress.org/WordPress_Optimization/Caching
[+] [-] salilpa|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hislaziness|12 years ago|reply
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-10-31/news...
[+] [-] lettergram|12 years ago|reply
For example, NASA developed different forms/methods of long distance communications which allow the spacecraft to communicate with the ground. That 63 million for development of the ISROs Mars Mission takes advantage of that. Saving cost.
Further, because some to many of the parts have been produced for decades and NASA retired their rockets, there are parts "on the cheap."
[+] [-] jayadevan|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Continuous|12 years ago|reply
Good launch and good start. All 3 stages complete. It's in space in a matter of seconds. Need another 45 mins to declare launch success and 10 months to reach mars!
[+] [-] jayadevan|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swatkat|12 years ago|reply
Former Isro chairman G Madhavan Nair on Monday said, “This has been a tradition. I had also gone to Tirupati before the Chandrayaan mission.”
But more than religious beliefs, he said these temple visits helped des-stress the mind and offer clarity.
But beyond this, do superstitions and other beliefs have a hold on the scientists?
“Not really,” said Mylswamy Annadurai, the project director of moon missions Chandrayaan 1 and Chandrayaan 2. “I read a page of Bhagawad Gita daily and will do so on Tuesday.”
He added, “But yes I have just got a jar of peanuts and a good luck card from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory-Nasa. This is a very nice gesture. I will distribute these peanuts in my office on Tuesday morning.”
Scientists at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in National Aeronautics and Space Administration (Nasa) consider circulation of peanuts auspicious.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news-feed/science/ahead-of-mar...
[+] [-] fit2rule|12 years ago|reply
Science doesn't mean you have to be an emotion-less robot.
[+] [-] salilpa|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] svirinchi|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swatkat|12 years ago|reply
http://isro.org/launchtosolarpanel.aspx
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]