Whether it's Alan Turing, slavery, war crimes, or anything else, the best apology to someone who is dead would be to stop doing the same things to those who are living.
I saw that Benjamin Zepheniah on TV, saying the Monarchy should be abolished because the Royal Family had blessed slave ships.
What he didn't bother to say is that pretty much the entire world (including Africans) participated in the slave trade at that time, and that Britain had taken the lead in the fight to stamp out slavery. The first time in history that former slave-holders had fought to free slaves. Literally fought, with warships blessed by the Royals.
So yeah, we've done some terrible things - but on the whole (even under New Labour) the UK is a powerful force for good in the world, and we deserve credit for that. And we're to "undo" the effects of everything we've done... Well let's say that Zepheniah wouldn't be sitting in an air-conditioned TV studio wearing a handmade suit, hatin'.
there's some truth to this. As a child I recall being taught that some scientists thought hormones could treat homosexuality, as it was considered an illness.
It's amazing how ignorant we were just 50 years ago, and likely still are :)
What's particularly sad about Turing was that he was such a great war hero. We make movies about famous spies capturing machines behind enemy lines, when the reality was largely Turing and I believe a group of polish refugees slaving away in basements building computers.
Touching fact regarding the statue in Sackville Park: the sculptor's own personal computer, a 20-year old Amstrad CPC, was buried underneath the statue as the "sacrifice".
The damage has already been done. It is not reversible. Apologies do not mean much usually. They probably mean less than nothing coming from a government.
I agree that they don't mean much, but I wouldn't say "less than nothing." Rather, I'd say they count for "something slightly more than nothing."
If the government of the UK were to apologize, the story of Turing's mistreatment at the hands of the government would fill a news cycle. It's not much, but it's not nothing.
The Australian government apologized for the treatment of the indigenous people of Australia.
I think apologies matter a lot. Even though Turing is dead and has no family to apologize too, an apology would make a point about how prejudice warps the world.
A sad story indeed. If I recall correctly from the biography Turing spent time working at Princeton as Alonzo Church had independently produced the same results so it's really the Church-Turing thesis.
Statues and government apologies don't mean squat. The important thing is to never let the story be forgotten.
Homosexuality was illegal in many parts of the world at the time, and it was believed to be morally incorrect by citizens (in most cases), just like how the majority of people see cannabis as a very harmful drug today. So if anything, it should be the world apologising, not the British government alone (whos apology would likely be meaningless anyway, due to the change of power since that time.) The same goes for discrimination against women and blacks.
What's done is done, and thankfully we are now open to the thought that we were wrong in our moral standards. And in a lot of cases, we now fight strongly for the rights of people who were once discriminated against.
To me, an apology is only worth something if the person/people apologising had an opinion which conflicted with the general opinion of the population, otherwise who's to say the victim wouldn't have thought the same if he/she was in the same situation? (i.e. not gay.) That's not to say the general populations' opinion was right, but that it can be massively rub off on your own.
It's not really a good idea is it? The people who perpetrated this are dead, it was under an earlier Government. Further more the whole situation was likely whipped up by the right wing press, Sir John Gielgud's treatment was another appalling example of this. The general populous at the time were not really bothered either way about a person's sexuality.
The best way is to remember him would be to create a large research institution in his honour. Apologizing changes nothing in this instance.
Given the current problems the British government are having holding the country together, an apology to Alan Turing is NOT something I want them to be thinking about.
Don't get me wrong, I am 100% for gay rights, laws against discrimination, etc (my mum is gay, and is 'married' to her partner), but I think priorities should lie in making life worth living for those still with us at this time.
I'm not sure why you're being moderated down. The conditions causing the Potato Famine to have such devastating consequences are known to be a political issue rather than than an ecological one.
I'm surprised there's so much negativity about this post. Alan Turing made huge contributions to mathematics and philosophy.
But not only that, he was a war hero. How many other people in the 20th century contributed so much to the world on both practical and theoretical levels?
And the British Government drove him to suicide for no good reason.
Governments do not even hold themselves responsible for the previous adminstration's fiscal measures let alone the laws that were in place generations ago. Nor should they. The dead are dead. Let's expend our energies on being decent to ourselves, the living.
I can't think of anything more insulting than a government that has no interest in science deciding to do a big honoring Turin publicity stunt in the hope of a gain in gay voter support.
There is also considerable doubt that his 'treatment', which had ended a year before, was a cause of his suicide - rather than a feeling that his work wasn't leading anywhere.
[+] [-] edw519|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pierrefar|17 years ago|reply
In this instance, the apology is to stop discriminating based on sexuality.
[+] [-] radu_floricica|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] biohacker42|17 years ago|reply
If they start apologizing to people one by one... that'll take a while.
[+] [-] gaius|17 years ago|reply
What he didn't bother to say is that pretty much the entire world (including Africans) participated in the slave trade at that time, and that Britain had taken the lead in the fight to stamp out slavery. The first time in history that former slave-holders had fought to free slaves. Literally fought, with warships blessed by the Royals.
So yeah, we've done some terrible things - but on the whole (even under New Labour) the UK is a powerful force for good in the world, and we deserve credit for that. And we're to "undo" the effects of everything we've done... Well let's say that Zepheniah wouldn't be sitting in an air-conditioned TV studio wearing a handmade suit, hatin'.
[+] [-] albertcardona|17 years ago|reply
(Just kidding.)
[+] [-] yangyang|17 years ago|reply
Attitudes change (for the better in this case). An apology from a government doesn't change history.
[+] [-] bitdiddle|17 years ago|reply
It's amazing how ignorant we were just 50 years ago, and likely still are :)
What's particularly sad about Turing was that he was such a great war hero. We make movies about famous spies capturing machines behind enemy lines, when the reality was largely Turing and I believe a group of polish refugees slaving away in basements building computers.
[+] [-] dtf|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scscsc|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] michael_dorfman|17 years ago|reply
If the government of the UK were to apologize, the story of Turing's mistreatment at the hands of the government would fill a news cycle. It's not much, but it's not nothing.
[+] [-] J_McQuade|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] slackenerny|17 years ago|reply
How?
[+] [-] jgrahamc|17 years ago|reply
I think apologies matter a lot. Even though Turing is dead and has no family to apologize too, an apology would make a point about how prejudice warps the world.
[+] [-] bitdiddle|17 years ago|reply
A sad story indeed. If I recall correctly from the biography Turing spent time working at Princeton as Alonzo Church had independently produced the same results so it's really the Church-Turing thesis.
Statues and government apologies don't mean squat. The important thing is to never let the story be forgotten.
[+] [-] ashleyw|17 years ago|reply
What's done is done, and thankfully we are now open to the thought that we were wrong in our moral standards. And in a lot of cases, we now fight strongly for the rights of people who were once discriminated against.
To me, an apology is only worth something if the person/people apologising had an opinion which conflicted with the general opinion of the population, otherwise who's to say the victim wouldn't have thought the same if he/she was in the same situation? (i.e. not gay.) That's not to say the general populations' opinion was right, but that it can be massively rub off on your own.
[+] [-] Herring|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nailer|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justin_hancock|17 years ago|reply
The best way is to remember him would be to create a large research institution in his honour. Apologizing changes nothing in this instance.
[+] [-] Jem|17 years ago|reply
Don't get me wrong, I am 100% for gay rights, laws against discrimination, etc (my mum is gay, and is 'married' to her partner), but I think priorities should lie in making life worth living for those still with us at this time.
[+] [-] ojbyrne|17 years ago|reply
* Irish Potato Famine
* Acadian Expulsion
I'm sure there's more.
[+] [-] nailer|17 years ago|reply
Wikipedia has a fairly extensively referenced article on the issue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland). See 'Causes and contributing factors'.
[+] [-] lukas|17 years ago|reply
But not only that, he was a war hero. How many other people in the 20th century contributed so much to the world on both practical and theoretical levels?
And the British Government drove him to suicide for no good reason.
I think his story deserves far more recognition.
[+] [-] kingkawn|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vixen99|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vixen99|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pwoods|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jcl|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] davidw|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tc|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ijuyhgtyu|17 years ago|reply
There is also considerable doubt that his 'treatment', which had ended a year before, was a cause of his suicide - rather than a feeling that his work wasn't leading anywhere.
[+] [-] TweedHeads|17 years ago|reply