Indeed, although it's not an easy read, and it takes time for the horror of spending one's entire life, birth to death, in a concentration camp, starving and being tortured to really sink in.
It is amazing account from someone who was born inside of a NK prison camp, escaping the camp, then NK, and finally making his way to California. I totally recommend it. I couldn't stop reading it once I picked it up.
A more depressing read is "The Story of Oh" [0] - a South Korean who chose to move with his family to North Korea ... then, upon realizing how the facts on the ground differed from the fiction he'd been taught about the place, managed to escape. Without his family, mind you. His wife demanded he escape, the better to prevent others from following in his footsteps.
George Clooney has a satellite he uses to keep track of a warlord. Individuals have capabilities which were previously accessible only to nations. I wonder if it is possible that an individual might intervene in North Korea, instead of a nation... but the parallels of a individual intervening in another nation's affairs sound a lot like terrorism. Some more thinking to do here...
The Logan Act[1] might be a place to start, though it's more often used as a theatrical threat, in the same way that people accuse each other of treason whenever they disagree.
To those trying to somehow link Guantanamo to labor camps in NK, please, stop. You are only making yourself look foolish. Such comparisons don't help your cause at all.
500 or so prisoners in Guantanamo versus 200,000+ in NKorean camps. The NKorean prisoners don't get medical help, freedom to worship religion of choice.
The 500 are NOT there along with their wife, kids, grandkids, on both sides of the family. In NK, once a person is taken to one of the camps, it usually means 3 generations of his family is taken there. Think about it, 10+ or more people (including little kids) are dragged away to labor camps because of actions (or perceived actions) of 1 person in the family.
Please, stop comparing Guantanamo with NKorean labor camps.
What about comparing Corrections Corporation of America and it's privatized prisons to DPRK labor camps?
Perhaps a bit of a stretch given how clean and sanitary private prisons are known to be. But since American prisoners are forced to labor at wages that are a fraction of the market rate for the same work and are charged for their incarceration at a rate higher than it is possible for them to earn in prison... perhaps it is not so different.
> Are Jewish orgs doing anything to help this situation
They're too busy recreating the Holocaust with the Palestinians as the victim. Every couple of months we hear about the Israelis expanding their lebensraum by building some new settlements on Palestinian land.
Does North Korea have a future? Is it possible that someday that the current rule is overthrown and the rights and lives of people are restored? Can anyone with knowledge about this comment?
Hopefully someday we'll see hearings on Americans massacring South Korean civilians some day ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_Massacre ). We even have written orders and memoes showing it was U.S. policy to fire upon civilians.
Or maybe supporting the dictatorship in South Korea, and it's massacre against members of the democratization movement in 1980 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Democratization_Movemen... ). General Wickham sent troops from the DMZ so that the South Korean army could commit the massacre actually.
We could go on about Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib torture, the NSA spying on all e-mails, phone calls and web site browsing and saving it forever etc.
But no, let's hear more about a US Senate hearing on human rights in North Korea - from 11 years ago...what a farce.
It's quite offensive by itself that you're even suggesting the things you are listing are within 2 or 3 orders of magnitude within what is happening in North Korea.
firstOrder,
It was also a written policy of the communists to infiltrate rear of UN forces by mixing in with refugees. Maybe there were no communist soldiers in the particular group fired upon, but it's well known communists mixed in with fleeing refugees to get advantage on the battle field.
1980, what year was that? Yes, in the middle of the Cold War. Both sides on fingers to possibly launch hundreds of nukes. I'm sure the US held their nose as they 'supported' the newly emerging military dictator in SKorea. Simply, US had no choice.
And guess what the testimony from 11 years isn't the only related story. It's even more relevant as there are lots more, depressing stories coming out of NKorea.
In my opinion, regular people will always be struggling agains the power structures that control their lives.
Just because we're subject to or even party to a government that commits atrocities doesn't mean we should give up trying to fight against other injustices.
I don't feel there is any inconsistency in using our government to expose or stop other government's problems even when we have our own, so long as we're working against our own country's injustices, too.
I do recognize that people could read this and think it's only 'others' that are bad, but I believe there will always be a percent of people that misinterpret or warp anything to suit their own ends, and that fact doesn't mean we should stop trying to make things better.
I am all for closing Guantanamo (as well as stopping the horrible brutality in US prisons -- which is a much more pressing, but more "hidden" problem) but it's counter productive to compare US to a totalitarian regime. You are still free to leave United States, to hum a tune from a counter-regime movie, etc... without being thrown in Guantanamo. Many prisoners are also released from Guantanamo. It is legal to openly run a presidential campaign -- and win -- promising to close Guantanamo (but alas, it is not illegal to fail to follow through on this core promise).
In fact, the danger of United States becoming totalitarian is low: creeping authoritarianism, police state tactics, "law and order" used to justify horrid prison conditions and insane sentences, "reasons of state" blackholes (like aforementioned Gitmo), are real dangers. Plurality of the world is governed by either hybrid or authoritarian regimes (which most usually serve to satisfy their rulers' thirst of money and power); North Korea, a few former USSR republics, and perhaps areas of failed states controlled by totalitarian factions are the only unambiguously totalitarian states.
However, by hinting at moral equivalence between United States and North Korea, you end up serving those advocating this creeping authoritarianism: they can now present outlandish arguments that since those opposed to Guantanamo "apologize" for North Korea (note, I am not accusing you of this -- you are not saying North Korea is justified in what they do, but this could easily be spun as such!), advancement of their goals is advancement of North Korea's, Taliban's, etc... goals.
I'm saying this as somebody who feels very strong about torture being an unconditional and absolute moral wrong, sees Guantanamo as representing a very evil and dangerous tendency, and also sees current prison conditions in US as something that -- in the future -- will be seen in the same light as the breaking wheel and the torture rack. Comments like this do not help; just don't do this -- instead, speak up for human rights of all individuals (whether or not their testimony looks like it "serves US agenda" or "helps the terrorists").
[Edit: the big reason I feel strongly about this is that I came from former USSR myself. I remember many Americans, especially those who were unhappy with US behaviour during Cold War would always speak about how US was slighting "my guys", "my country", and being sorry for break up of USSR. They were surprised why I would speak so negatively about "my country" -- as if government and country were equivalent, Cold War was a morally neutral football match, and as if my country wasn't one my family willing adopted and chose to make their home, that is the US.]
Starting 16 November 2009, as enabled by the Supreme Court ruling in Boumediene, dozens of detainees began to use habeas corpus petitions in U.S. courts to seek freedom from the Guantánamo Bay prison. In some cases, they testified by video from the U.S. naval base in Cuba. Fifteen Federal judges have found the government's evidence against 30 detainees wanting and ordered their release. That number was expected to rise as the judges were scheduled to hear challenges from dozens more prisoners.
How many North Korean prisoners get any kind of hearing?
Guantanamo is actually sign of USA becoming more civilised. Less than 50 years ago US military armed formations partied harder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program More akin to their North Korean counterparts. Then again NK is developmentally delayed by about 50 years... Maybe around 2063 they will have their Guantanamo an will be abhorred by it.
On more serious note... When could we deploy few hundred thousands microdrones there and assasinate everyone who gives the orders?
[+] [-] guyht|12 years ago|reply
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11797365-escape-from-cam...
[+] [-] hdevalence|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eyeareque|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BrandonMarc|12 years ago|reply
----------------------------------------
[0] http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2012/07/16/the-story-of-...
[+] [-] greenburger|12 years ago|reply
Some of the camps are massive, for example Camp 22 is estimated to be 225 sq. km and holding 50,000 people [1].
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea#Int...
[+] [-] zoba|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] astrodust|12 years ago|reply
He doesn't have his own satellite, obviously, but buys satellite imagery to document war crimes and to warn against incursions.
[+] [-] rz2k|12 years ago|reply
[1]http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/953
[+] [-] DanBC|12 years ago|reply
from 2013.
EDIT: Corrected year typo, thank you kohanz!
[+] [-] kohanz|12 years ago|reply
I'm guessing "2012" was a typo for "2002".
[+] [-] dba7dba|12 years ago|reply
500 or so prisoners in Guantanamo versus 200,000+ in NKorean camps. The NKorean prisoners don't get medical help, freedom to worship religion of choice.
The 500 are NOT there along with their wife, kids, grandkids, on both sides of the family. In NK, once a person is taken to one of the camps, it usually means 3 generations of his family is taken there. Think about it, 10+ or more people (including little kids) are dragged away to labor camps because of actions (or perceived actions) of 1 person in the family.
Please, stop comparing Guantanamo with NKorean labor camps.
[+] [-] olefoo|12 years ago|reply
Perhaps a bit of a stretch given how clean and sanitary private prisons are known to be. But since American prisoners are forced to labor at wages that are a fraction of the market rate for the same work and are charged for their incarceration at a rate higher than it is possible for them to earn in prison... perhaps it is not so different.
[+] [-] scotty79|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adamio|12 years ago|reply
edit: Note, I'm genuinely asking here, not implying anything should/isnot being done
[+] [-] maaku|12 years ago|reply
Probably the same things they were doing to help out in Rowanda and Bosinia.
[+] [-] w1ntermute|12 years ago|reply
They're too busy recreating the Holocaust with the Palestinians as the victim. Every couple of months we hear about the Israelis expanding their lebensraum by building some new settlements on Palestinian land.
[+] [-] middleclick|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TrainedMonkey|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] woodchuck64|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] firstOrder|12 years ago|reply
Or maybe supporting the dictatorship in South Korea, and it's massacre against members of the democratization movement in 1980 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Democratization_Movemen... ). General Wickham sent troops from the DMZ so that the South Korean army could commit the massacre actually.
We could go on about Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib torture, the NSA spying on all e-mails, phone calls and web site browsing and saving it forever etc.
But no, let's hear more about a US Senate hearing on human rights in North Korea - from 11 years ago...what a farce.
[+] [-] roel_v|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dba7dba|12 years ago|reply
1980, what year was that? Yes, in the middle of the Cold War. Both sides on fingers to possibly launch hundreds of nukes. I'm sure the US held their nose as they 'supported' the newly emerging military dictator in SKorea. Simply, US had no choice.
And guess what the testimony from 11 years isn't the only related story. It's even more relevant as there are lots more, depressing stories coming out of NKorea.
http://www.npr.org/2012/03/29/149061951/escape-from-camp-14-...
[+] [-] droopyEyelids|12 years ago|reply
Just because we're subject to or even party to a government that commits atrocities doesn't mean we should give up trying to fight against other injustices.
I don't feel there is any inconsistency in using our government to expose or stop other government's problems even when we have our own, so long as we're working against our own country's injustices, too.
I do recognize that people could read this and think it's only 'others' that are bad, but I believe there will always be a percent of people that misinterpret or warp anything to suit their own ends, and that fact doesn't mean we should stop trying to make things better.
[+] [-] huhtenberg|12 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp
I know most of you heard of it, but, seriously, take a moment and look a bit closer.
[+] [-] strlen|12 years ago|reply
In fact, the danger of United States becoming totalitarian is low: creeping authoritarianism, police state tactics, "law and order" used to justify horrid prison conditions and insane sentences, "reasons of state" blackholes (like aforementioned Gitmo), are real dangers. Plurality of the world is governed by either hybrid or authoritarian regimes (which most usually serve to satisfy their rulers' thirst of money and power); North Korea, a few former USSR republics, and perhaps areas of failed states controlled by totalitarian factions are the only unambiguously totalitarian states.
However, by hinting at moral equivalence between United States and North Korea, you end up serving those advocating this creeping authoritarianism: they can now present outlandish arguments that since those opposed to Guantanamo "apologize" for North Korea (note, I am not accusing you of this -- you are not saying North Korea is justified in what they do, but this could easily be spun as such!), advancement of their goals is advancement of North Korea's, Taliban's, etc... goals.
I'm saying this as somebody who feels very strong about torture being an unconditional and absolute moral wrong, sees Guantanamo as representing a very evil and dangerous tendency, and also sees current prison conditions in US as something that -- in the future -- will be seen in the same light as the breaking wheel and the torture rack. Comments like this do not help; just don't do this -- instead, speak up for human rights of all individuals (whether or not their testimony looks like it "serves US agenda" or "helps the terrorists").
[Edit: the big reason I feel strongly about this is that I came from former USSR myself. I remember many Americans, especially those who were unhappy with US behaviour during Cold War would always speak about how US was slighting "my guys", "my country", and being sorry for break up of USSR. They were surprised why I would speak so negatively about "my country" -- as if government and country were equivalent, Cold War was a morally neutral football match, and as if my country wasn't one my family willing adopted and chose to make their home, that is the US.]
[+] [-] refurb|12 years ago|reply
Starting 16 November 2009, as enabled by the Supreme Court ruling in Boumediene, dozens of detainees began to use habeas corpus petitions in U.S. courts to seek freedom from the Guantánamo Bay prison. In some cases, they testified by video from the U.S. naval base in Cuba. Fifteen Federal judges have found the government's evidence against 30 detainees wanting and ordered their release. That number was expected to rise as the judges were scheduled to hear challenges from dozens more prisoners.
How many North Korean prisoners get any kind of hearing?
[+] [-] Finster|12 years ago|reply
Certainly, Gitmo is no picnic, but I have to question if you actually RTFA.
[+] [-] nether|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bananacurve|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scotty79|12 years ago|reply
On more serious note... When could we deploy few hundred thousands microdrones there and assasinate everyone who gives the orders?
[+] [-] deliminator|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BorisMelnik|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] deliminator|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] leokun|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] richardlblair|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] richardlblair|12 years ago|reply