A couple of years ago I moved to the Yukon and had the opportunity to go Moose hunting. I really didn't know if I'd be OK with killing such a large animal and "getting down to it" and have found to experience to be quite powerful.
There is a lot of respect for the animal and we treat every square centimeter of edible meat with the utmost care. It's quite a strange sensation to be working so hard (it's extremely heavy and time consuming to field dress such a large animal) but have this feeling that it's the right thing to be doing. Somehow, I know my ancestors have been doing this for tens of thousands of years.
When I cook at home I make certain that every plate is eaten or saved for leftovers. I would never let someone simply scrape that into the trash, as I might have done when buying shrink wrapped meat from Safeway.
It's a highly rewarding and enlightening process which I highly, highly recommend to anyone that eats meat.
UPDATE: I've been putting the finishing touches on a blog entry about this experience and photos from my first moose hunting trip.... I'll try to have it done later today, the post will be at the top of http://theroadchoseme.com when it's done.
This has been my experience almost exactly (s/Yukon/Alberta/). I now hunt yearly and basically don't any meat that I didn't kill myself. One deer is enough for a couple for a year.
I found the experience it very self-illuminating, the hypocrisy of will-not-kill-but-will-eat-from-store became much more focused.
The experience of hunting wildly varies. I've had one or two gut-wrenching bad shots, hitting the animal in the leg then having to track it down and end it. Most of the time, the animal is dead before the sound of the shot reaches them, before which they were blissfully grazing.
Regardless of the experience, you reflect on what you've just done far more than when you buy meat on a shelf.
I really wish more people who eat meat would put themselves in a position to experience this. It's awesome that you took away so much respect for the animal and the process. I'd love to see that kind of awareness at scale. (full disclosure: I'm vegan)
There seems to be quite a number of people who embrace the reasoning that it's more ethical to eat animals if one kills them themselves. (I'm not sure if I'm not reading this into what you're writing, if this is not your position I apologise, but anyway this is for the purpose of discussing said position in general.) I disagree with this in general. The act of feeding oneself is necessary for survival, whereas killing animals is not.
First of all, the animal couldn't care less if someone treats its corpse with respect--it's already dead, so I don't see how the animal benefits from this. Second, I'd say that the negative effects on the killer's mind from the act of killing far outweigh any positive effects from mindfulness in handling food produced from the kill.
Killing desensitizes, you become accustomed to taking life from another sentient being. The meat industry is likewise taking care to use every edible part of the animal, they're not producing any waste as far as that goes. Further, I don't think eating everything in the plate is making any measurable difference in terms of total meat consumed (if that's the implicit idea behind this). It's like the “think about the starving children in Africa” routine, which never made sense: people in Africa aren't starving because kids in the West aren't eating their whole dinners, and what good does cleaning the plate (i.e. making the food gone) do to remedy the situation. :)
> It's a highly rewarding and enlightening process which I highly, highly recommend to anyone that eats meat.
The bottom line of what I'm trying to say is I just can't see anything enlightening, let alone rewarding, in a process which necessitates killing other sentient beings. Of course, there is absolutely no doubt that hunting is infinitely more ethical than what is being done by the meat industry. It's really incomparable, so if you have to eat meat do take care it's from a reasonable source like hunting or “organic” (I hate that word) farming. However, that likely doesn't scale at all at the current levels of population. In my mind the best thing to do would be to just stop killing animals for food.
Some time ago I came across this interesting Youtube video[0] but never got around to post it here, and this discussion reminded me of that[1]. Basically, this guy (a Theravada monk) summarizes almost perfectly what I'm trying to say. Because of the horrible things industrial meat production does, I can't quite agree with him that it's OK to buy meat in the supermarket (as long as you're not specifically desiring meat), but otherwise I think he is spot on.
Its hard for me to seriously consider changing my opinion from an article that shows its biases so clearly. You show me the worst case scenario, but what is the average case? Also, what are the alternatives to these techniques? If you don't like cattle prodding, what do you suggest instead? Not eating meat or drinking milk is not going to be an acceptable answer.
Edit: Not going to be acceptable as an alternative to animal cruelty to the American public. I think that is pretty objective in terms of what is actually feasible through legislation/cultural change.
The article was about large-scale production of animals by multi-billion dollar conglomerates, not about veganism or vegetarianism (though there is of course a connection). Thus, it owes readers no alternative lifestyle choices.
If you are disgusted by the reality presented in the article, then its incumbent upon you to find an alternative you find more humane.
Cruelty to animals/non-vegetarianism/humane treatment of animals etc. are all highly subjective and personal choices. You won't find all the easy answers in one article.
In many industries there are always extremes. Consider all those series about restaurants and the famous chef trying to right them. Really, how are some of those places in business? How are inspectors not fired? After all its clearly convincing that some of them are a threat to both customer and employee.
So it goes with farming. However having grown up around this industry I do know that farmers themselves do not tolerate suffering of animals in their care, and regardless if they are dairy or meat, they are in your care. You are also on the lookout for conditions that will get you fined or shutdown.
So my bias when it comes to this article is this, if the evidence is so convincing then where are the inspectors? Where is the government? Surely something so exaggerated must deserve immediate attention!
Sadly, considering the names of some of involved organizations I dismiss their stories immediately. Especially anyone dealing with PETA and similar. Groups whose only interest is headlines and are more than willing to ignore abuses to animals in government run shelters, if not their own run facilities.
Pay more for your meat. Eat less meat to pay for it if you must. Research the premium brands available in your supermarket - the words "free range" or "organic" on their own are pretty meaningless. Find out what delivery services are available in your area, research them. Buy from a provider you trust.
It's not about worst case, best case or average case.
The fact that in all cases, animals are born (without choice) into captivity, for the purpose of having their life exploited or ended, is one of the most compelling reasons you should consider your consumption of meat and whether it's really worth it.
One of the biggest issues with mass-produced meat in this country is the total lack of transparency between the average case and worst case scenario. If all you take away from this is starting to believe in and supporting better food labeling practices, and perhaps actually having a conversation about your meat's provenance with your butcher, I'd consider that to be progress.
I know it's considered a failing of hn that commenters tend to attack the style rather than the content, but here the style is aggressively designed to provoke a particular reaction. I find that pretty insulting to the readers: "Don't bother to make up your own mind, let the sounds of dripping shit do it for you!"
It's the multimedia equivalent of Taibbi's expletive-laced purple prose.
How do you know there are vegans on HN? Post anything about eating critters or dietary subjects.
I'm about 1 more story from just flagging these from HN because the discourse on these subjects is as predictable and brain dead as a Daring Fireball discussion.
I'm surprised and happy to see a big outlet like the Rolling Stone doing such an extensive feature on the meat topic. Yes, they present it completely biased and it's clear what the motivations of the publisher here are, but I think it's important to finally get visibility on what meat consumption actually means.
It's fascinating to see that people who want to eat meat are okay with the fact that we're so detached from what it actually is. The objectification of everything in this world is definitely playing a part in this, we just remove the moral context of the products we buy so we don't have to think about it, problem solved.
I eat meat, but I am struggling with where I buy it, what I pay for it and how much I eat it.
I recommend reading Eating Animals by Jonathan Saffran Foer, where he leaves the decision up to you but is providing you with interesting thought experiments (why not eat dog meat?) and information so you can make up your own mind. It is unfortunately written about the American meat industry, I'd love to see exposure like that on European countries as well.
ugh...this is the reason I have not eaten poultry for the last 10 years, except when I am back in Ireland where I can buy organic, free-range chicken from a farmer....it might cost $27 a pop, but as my grandma says....it tastes & has the texture of what chicken used to be like.
I used to love bacon / pork, but cannot eat that stuff anymore after reading about how toxins are formed / retained in the meat.
The only beef I eat is grass-fed pasture raised - no hormones or antibiotics.
My opinion is that you pay for your health one way or the other, either in preventing illness or after you become ill, there is no escaping the high cost of staying healthy in western, urban centers.
You can get good poultry in the US if you go out of your way for it and are willing to pay for it. Even if you leave ethics out of it, the taste and texture difference between a $17 chicken and an $8 chicken is pretty huge.
There are farms that aren't like that. If you truly care about animal welfare make a point of only buying meat from these farms and be willing to pay the higher price.
Meat in the USA is made in the Farm Industrial Complex, sure. But so is all the mass market food; becoming a vegetarian doesn't change that. And I am a vegetarian.
Domestic chickens are not capable of long distance flight, although lighter birds are generally capable of flying for short distances, such as over fences or into trees (where they would naturally roost). Chickens may occasionally fly briefly to explore their surroundings, but generally do so only to flee perceived danger.
So…yeah chickens do fly short distances, unless they weigh too much.
I tried to eat only expensive meat to reduce the chances that the animals it comes from are bred in conditions such as those described in the article. The idea was that naturally this would reduce the amount of meat I ate as the cost of the meal went up.
Found it wasn't possible.
- There were no expensive ready meal options at my local supermarket
- Labeling contains no information about what kind of environment animals are brought up in
Solution:
- Enforce labeling about environment animals are kept in
- More NGOs need to take initiative to make it easier to access information - e.g. packaging should tell me name of factory meat was made in. I should be able to go online and view (ideally) live webcams for welfare and if not at least periodic photos of all areas where animals are 'processed'
Ultimately I wish I had the will power to turn fully vegetarian but my issue isn't with eating meat as such - more that I don't want to be a part of any operation that kills animals en masse and I hate words like 'processed' being associated with my food and live animals.
>There were no expensive ready meal options at my local supermarket - Labeling contains no information about what kind of environment animals are brought up in
I think you know why. :)
>Ultimately I wish I had the will power to turn fully vegetarian
The way I started (I'm a veggie now) is not to fully eliminate meat completely for your diet, but just 1 day a week.
The way to look at it is not that you're missing out on meat for 1 day, but as an opportunity to try out non-meat options.
Here's some suggestions: go to a middle eastern place and order falafel wraps, or tofu next time you go to a Chinese place. Also there's lots of Indian food that's veggie friendly. i.e. Indulge your palette in food that you generally wouldn't try. You might like it!
What do we know about these mega-meat companies?
1) they do all this crap for the money
2) they will do whatever it takes to protect that cash flow
If you believe those statements, it stands to reason, the only thing these companies will ever respond to is competition. I think PETA, HSUS, and the over activists need to stop focusing on trying to get these companies to do the right thing because they never will when profit is their motivator.
We also know the demand for meat is going to remain high in perpetuity. What the activists need to focus on is a model which can compete and is humane enough for their standards. Yes, the activists need to turn into farmers or at least partner with farmers willing and able to scale up to the size of these meat companies. They need to put them out of business; or make consumers not want to do business with them, by giving consumers another option (trying to expose them, and shame consumers for eating meat will never scale).
So, start a farm. Innovate on every process so that it's humane and cost effective. Focus on scale, without scale you can never compete or put a meaningful dent in their market share. Maybe it is never as cheap as the other guys, but it's better - and you can sell that. It will be a slow difficult battle, but I think the activists are used to that. Over time, you can create a "PETA approved" meat stamp, market that to consumers, and much like the "organic" movement - a great deal of people will be willing to pay for what is better.
Cruelty is, of course, despicable and should be stopped. The vast majority of growers are decent and moral. It's easy for activists to find and focus on bad apples and make it seem like all meat suppliers are criminal monsters. This is simply not true. This would be like meat eating activists finding bad actors in the farming industry to then acuse the entirety of that industry with criminal behaviour. Ridiculous.
As for vegan vs. meat. Well, few things in life have more evidence than the support provided by millions of years and thousands of species who would not have survived had they not used other species' meat for food, for energy and nutrition. The species that did evolve to survive on plants (cows, for example) have radically different anatomy and mechanisms evolved over millions of years of adaptation to that diet.
We are meat eaters. More accurately, we are omnivores. The only reason one could even consider going vegan is that we've industrialized food production and distribution.
Drop two people on an island. One of them is constrained to eating plants while the other is able to eat anything, including any animal, plant and even his left foot. Over time the vegan will either get horribly sick and maybe even die. In addition to that, he would have to devote huge chuncks of the day to finding vegan food. The omnivore could easily ingest all the energy and nutrients needed to function at a high level of exertion for a full day during one meal. One could focus most of his time trying to get off the island while the other has to focus on eating constantly.
Here's another way to look at it. Veganism can be hypocritical in that one's ability to choose this approach would not exist without millions of years of eating meat. You are who you are and you exist because our ancestors, including your parents, grandparents, etc. killed and ate meat. A vegan is only possible because of millions of years of eating meat. Our species would not exist without eating meat.
Yet another view is that millions of meat eaters make veganism possible.
The vast majority of the people in a vegan's food supply chain are almost guaranteed to be meat eaters. How much of a hypocrite does someone have to be to rationalize eating vegan when tens of thousands of meat eaters --killing and eating hundreds of thousands of animals-- are quite literally feeding them their vegan diet. A vegan who makes sure their entire food supply chain is vegan is, of course, being absolutely honest in support of their choice.
humans are animals, nothing more, nothing less.
I'm not against improving animal's conditions, but I have the impression that most of the activist don't have much contact with nature and they feel that we are superior, so we don't follow nature's rule.
the reality is that a lot of people still struggle to survive like other animals, and it can be brutal.
If the suffering of animals matters, then eating meat is morally wrong. Animals are non-human persons who are aware of their own existence and who feel a wide range of emotions, just like we do.
Killing animals may still be acceptable in western society, but it's wrong. It's wrong just as slavery in the United States in the 18th and 19th century was once acceptable but wrong. Just as hanging, drawing and quartering to an audience of thousands in Europe was acceptable but wrong.
To disregard the pain and suffering of animal persons without regard for their interests - just because they're not human, is a form of racism. Peter Singer[1] calls it 'speciesism'.
We don't need technological advances in this society as much as we need advances in morality.
> Killing animals may still be acceptable in western society, but it's wrong. It's wrong just as slavery in the United States in the 18th and 19th century was once acceptable but wrong. Just as hanging, drawing and quartering to an audience of thousands in Europe was acceptable but wrong.
Wow, wait until you watch an animal kingdom video. Your mind is about to be blown but the amount of animal on animal violence you'll see.
I mean blue whales will eat litterally 10 of thousands of shrimp in one meal.
Lions will attack and pick on the weakest of the gazelles. nature must have really gotten it wrong.
Look, you just can't come out and state that eating meat is wrong without providing some sort of rational around it. Just claiming its morally wrong doesn't really make an impressive argument at all.
The biggest problem you make is to lump together the poor treatment of animals and the eating of meat. Many farms treat animals in ways that are considered by the vast majority of people to be fair and proper.
Many people who eat meat have educated themselves and consider you to be wrong about the ethics of eating meat.
TD/DR, you just can't take your own beliefs, state them as fact and then state that they are the correct moral thing to do and any one who dares disagree with your narrow beliefs is just wrong.
[+] [-] _dp9d|12 years ago|reply
There is a lot of respect for the animal and we treat every square centimeter of edible meat with the utmost care. It's quite a strange sensation to be working so hard (it's extremely heavy and time consuming to field dress such a large animal) but have this feeling that it's the right thing to be doing. Somehow, I know my ancestors have been doing this for tens of thousands of years.
When I cook at home I make certain that every plate is eaten or saved for leftovers. I would never let someone simply scrape that into the trash, as I might have done when buying shrink wrapped meat from Safeway.
It's a highly rewarding and enlightening process which I highly, highly recommend to anyone that eats meat.
UPDATE: I've been putting the finishing touches on a blog entry about this experience and photos from my first moose hunting trip.... I'll try to have it done later today, the post will be at the top of http://theroadchoseme.com when it's done.
[+] [-] danpat|12 years ago|reply
I found the experience it very self-illuminating, the hypocrisy of will-not-kill-but-will-eat-from-store became much more focused.
The experience of hunting wildly varies. I've had one or two gut-wrenching bad shots, hitting the animal in the leg then having to track it down and end it. Most of the time, the animal is dead before the sound of the shot reaches them, before which they were blissfully grazing.
Regardless of the experience, you reflect on what you've just done far more than when you buy meat on a shelf.
[+] [-] famousactress|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arsenerei|12 years ago|reply
* Will you only cook what you kill?
* If not, will this experience change the type of meat you purchase? (e.g., free range only)
* Have you or will you now cook offal?
[+] [-] nzp|12 years ago|reply
First of all, the animal couldn't care less if someone treats its corpse with respect--it's already dead, so I don't see how the animal benefits from this. Second, I'd say that the negative effects on the killer's mind from the act of killing far outweigh any positive effects from mindfulness in handling food produced from the kill.
Killing desensitizes, you become accustomed to taking life from another sentient being. The meat industry is likewise taking care to use every edible part of the animal, they're not producing any waste as far as that goes. Further, I don't think eating everything in the plate is making any measurable difference in terms of total meat consumed (if that's the implicit idea behind this). It's like the “think about the starving children in Africa” routine, which never made sense: people in Africa aren't starving because kids in the West aren't eating their whole dinners, and what good does cleaning the plate (i.e. making the food gone) do to remedy the situation. :)
> It's a highly rewarding and enlightening process which I highly, highly recommend to anyone that eats meat.
The bottom line of what I'm trying to say is I just can't see anything enlightening, let alone rewarding, in a process which necessitates killing other sentient beings. Of course, there is absolutely no doubt that hunting is infinitely more ethical than what is being done by the meat industry. It's really incomparable, so if you have to eat meat do take care it's from a reasonable source like hunting or “organic” (I hate that word) farming. However, that likely doesn't scale at all at the current levels of population. In my mind the best thing to do would be to just stop killing animals for food.
Some time ago I came across this interesting Youtube video[0] but never got around to post it here, and this discussion reminded me of that[1]. Basically, this guy (a Theravada monk) summarizes almost perfectly what I'm trying to say. Because of the horrible things industrial meat production does, I can't quite agree with him that it's OK to buy meat in the supermarket (as long as you're not specifically desiring meat), but otherwise I think he is spot on.
[0] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zisXgVnv-cI
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6884572
[+] [-] randyrand|12 years ago|reply
Edit: Not going to be acceptable as an alternative to animal cruelty to the American public. I think that is pretty objective in terms of what is actually feasible through legislation/cultural change.
[+] [-] r0h1n|12 years ago|reply
If you are disgusted by the reality presented in the article, then its incumbent upon you to find an alternative you find more humane.
Cruelty to animals/non-vegetarianism/humane treatment of animals etc. are all highly subjective and personal choices. You won't find all the easy answers in one article.
[+] [-] Shivetya|12 years ago|reply
So it goes with farming. However having grown up around this industry I do know that farmers themselves do not tolerate suffering of animals in their care, and regardless if they are dairy or meat, they are in your care. You are also on the lookout for conditions that will get you fined or shutdown.
So my bias when it comes to this article is this, if the evidence is so convincing then where are the inspectors? Where is the government? Surely something so exaggerated must deserve immediate attention!
Sadly, considering the names of some of involved organizations I dismiss their stories immediately. Especially anyone dealing with PETA and similar. Groups whose only interest is headlines and are more than willing to ignore abuses to animals in government run shelters, if not their own run facilities.
[+] [-] mseebach|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beaker52|12 years ago|reply
The fact that in all cases, animals are born (without choice) into captivity, for the purpose of having their life exploited or ended, is one of the most compelling reasons you should consider your consumption of meat and whether it's really worth it.
[+] [-] gmisra|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pickleport|12 years ago|reply
1. What makes you think this is the worst case? (That is, not comparable to the average case.)
2. Why is it unacceptable to stop eating meat or drinking milk?
[+] [-] davidjhamp|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tensaix2j|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] logjam|12 years ago|reply
Kindly explain to us all how "eating meat" and the suffering that inevitably accompanies it is necessary or even desirable.
[+] [-] nimble|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MartinCron|12 years ago|reply
He said that these cows have exactly one bad day in their lives, as they spend their entire lives with their mothers in grassy pastures.
[+] [-] asciimo|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] twoodfin|12 years ago|reply
I know it's considered a failing of hn that commenters tend to attack the style rather than the content, but here the style is aggressively designed to provoke a particular reaction. I find that pretty insulting to the readers: "Don't bother to make up your own mind, let the sounds of dripping shit do it for you!"
It's the multimedia equivalent of Taibbi's expletive-laced purple prose.
[+] [-] judk|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bane|12 years ago|reply
I'm about 1 more story from just flagging these from HN because the discourse on these subjects is as predictable and brain dead as a Daring Fireball discussion.
[+] [-] strict9|12 years ago|reply
Whatever your opinion on eating animals is, where our food comes from is a discussion that needs to be had. We need less of Stallman and Bitcoin.
[+] [-] Roelven|12 years ago|reply
It's fascinating to see that people who want to eat meat are okay with the fact that we're so detached from what it actually is. The objectification of everything in this world is definitely playing a part in this, we just remove the moral context of the products we buy so we don't have to think about it, problem solved.
I eat meat, but I am struggling with where I buy it, what I pay for it and how much I eat it.
I recommend reading Eating Animals by Jonathan Saffran Foer, where he leaves the decision up to you but is providing you with interesting thought experiments (why not eat dog meat?) and information so you can make up your own mind. It is unfortunately written about the American meat industry, I'd love to see exposure like that on European countries as well.
[+] [-] codex_irl|12 years ago|reply
I used to love bacon / pork, but cannot eat that stuff anymore after reading about how toxins are formed / retained in the meat.
The only beef I eat is grass-fed pasture raised - no hormones or antibiotics.
My opinion is that you pay for your health one way or the other, either in preventing illness or after you become ill, there is no escaping the high cost of staying healthy in western, urban centers.
[+] [-] MartinCron|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] api|12 years ago|reply
You can go largely vegetarian, eating meat only rarely. But you have to take care that your diet is balanced.
It's also a great way to save energy. I recall reading once that going even mostly vegetarian saves more energy than trading in a Hummer for a Prius.
[+] [-] rooster8|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dagw|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CapitalistCartr|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Synaesthesia|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iambateman|12 years ago|reply
So...yeah chickens don't fly.
Otherwise this article is good. There's a lot to be said for responsible consumption.
[+] [-] colanderman|12 years ago|reply
Domestic chickens are not capable of long distance flight, although lighter birds are generally capable of flying for short distances, such as over fences or into trees (where they would naturally roost). Chickens may occasionally fly briefly to explore their surroundings, but generally do so only to flee perceived danger.
So…yeah chickens do fly short distances, unless they weigh too much.
[+] [-] hawkharris|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vjvj|12 years ago|reply
Found it wasn't possible.
- There were no expensive ready meal options at my local supermarket - Labeling contains no information about what kind of environment animals are brought up in
Solution: - Enforce labeling about environment animals are kept in - More NGOs need to take initiative to make it easier to access information - e.g. packaging should tell me name of factory meat was made in. I should be able to go online and view (ideally) live webcams for welfare and if not at least periodic photos of all areas where animals are 'processed'
Ultimately I wish I had the will power to turn fully vegetarian but my issue isn't with eating meat as such - more that I don't want to be a part of any operation that kills animals en masse and I hate words like 'processed' being associated with my food and live animals.
Working post, feel free to build on it.
[+] [-] vlod|12 years ago|reply
I think you know why. :)
>Ultimately I wish I had the will power to turn fully vegetarian
The way I started (I'm a veggie now) is not to fully eliminate meat completely for your diet, but just 1 day a week.
The way to look at it is not that you're missing out on meat for 1 day, but as an opportunity to try out non-meat options.
Here's some suggestions: go to a middle eastern place and order falafel wraps, or tofu next time you go to a Chinese place. Also there's lots of Indian food that's veggie friendly. i.e. Indulge your palette in food that you generally wouldn't try. You might like it!
[+] [-] wiredfool|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] api|12 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRPzPjOR9lc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantula_hawk
[+] [-] ra3|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] conductr|12 years ago|reply
If you believe those statements, it stands to reason, the only thing these companies will ever respond to is competition. I think PETA, HSUS, and the over activists need to stop focusing on trying to get these companies to do the right thing because they never will when profit is their motivator.
We also know the demand for meat is going to remain high in perpetuity. What the activists need to focus on is a model which can compete and is humane enough for their standards. Yes, the activists need to turn into farmers or at least partner with farmers willing and able to scale up to the size of these meat companies. They need to put them out of business; or make consumers not want to do business with them, by giving consumers another option (trying to expose them, and shame consumers for eating meat will never scale).
So, start a farm. Innovate on every process so that it's humane and cost effective. Focus on scale, without scale you can never compete or put a meaningful dent in their market share. Maybe it is never as cheap as the other guys, but it's better - and you can sell that. It will be a slow difficult battle, but I think the activists are used to that. Over time, you can create a "PETA approved" meat stamp, market that to consumers, and much like the "organic" movement - a great deal of people will be willing to pay for what is better.
[+] [-] robomartin|12 years ago|reply
As for vegan vs. meat. Well, few things in life have more evidence than the support provided by millions of years and thousands of species who would not have survived had they not used other species' meat for food, for energy and nutrition. The species that did evolve to survive on plants (cows, for example) have radically different anatomy and mechanisms evolved over millions of years of adaptation to that diet.
We are meat eaters. More accurately, we are omnivores. The only reason one could even consider going vegan is that we've industrialized food production and distribution.
Drop two people on an island. One of them is constrained to eating plants while the other is able to eat anything, including any animal, plant and even his left foot. Over time the vegan will either get horribly sick and maybe even die. In addition to that, he would have to devote huge chuncks of the day to finding vegan food. The omnivore could easily ingest all the energy and nutrients needed to function at a high level of exertion for a full day during one meal. One could focus most of his time trying to get off the island while the other has to focus on eating constantly.
Here's another way to look at it. Veganism can be hypocritical in that one's ability to choose this approach would not exist without millions of years of eating meat. You are who you are and you exist because our ancestors, including your parents, grandparents, etc. killed and ate meat. A vegan is only possible because of millions of years of eating meat. Our species would not exist without eating meat.
Yet another view is that millions of meat eaters make veganism possible.
The vast majority of the people in a vegan's food supply chain are almost guaranteed to be meat eaters. How much of a hypocrite does someone have to be to rationalize eating vegan when tens of thousands of meat eaters --killing and eating hundreds of thousands of animals-- are quite literally feeding them their vegan diet. A vegan who makes sure their entire food supply chain is vegan is, of course, being absolutely honest in support of their choice.
[+] [-] genofon|12 years ago|reply
the reality is that a lot of people still struggle to survive like other animals, and it can be brutal.
[+] [-] ThreeFinger|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WalterSear|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] contextual|12 years ago|reply
Killing animals may still be acceptable in western society, but it's wrong. It's wrong just as slavery in the United States in the 18th and 19th century was once acceptable but wrong. Just as hanging, drawing and quartering to an audience of thousands in Europe was acceptable but wrong.
To disregard the pain and suffering of animal persons without regard for their interests - just because they're not human, is a form of racism. Peter Singer[1] calls it 'speciesism'.
We don't need technological advances in this society as much as we need advances in morality.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer
[+] [-] chollida1|12 years ago|reply
Wow, wait until you watch an animal kingdom video. Your mind is about to be blown but the amount of animal on animal violence you'll see.
I mean blue whales will eat litterally 10 of thousands of shrimp in one meal.
Lions will attack and pick on the weakest of the gazelles. nature must have really gotten it wrong.
Look, you just can't come out and state that eating meat is wrong without providing some sort of rational around it. Just claiming its morally wrong doesn't really make an impressive argument at all.
The biggest problem you make is to lump together the poor treatment of animals and the eating of meat. Many farms treat animals in ways that are considered by the vast majority of people to be fair and proper.
Many people who eat meat have educated themselves and consider you to be wrong about the ethics of eating meat.
TD/DR, you just can't take your own beliefs, state them as fact and then state that they are the correct moral thing to do and any one who dares disagree with your narrow beliefs is just wrong.