Here is an important point for the non-Germans, so that you can understand why this was even asked for:
Unlike the German rabble, its political leaders (with very rare exceptions) are personally invested in the "trans-atlantic partnership". The underlying assumption on the German side is of course that this is a partnership among equals.
Team Merkel is hoping sooo bad that a high-ranking US official will come out to tell them that they haven't been just a bunch of chumps. I wonder how they will react now that it has become clear that that won't happen.
They'll probably just step up their self-delusion game.
Another piece of info that is missing: there were elections in germany last autumn. Going into negotiations for a "no-spy" agreement also meant that the administration could say that they are doing something. Even though the negotiations have now turned out worthless (kind of predictable...), the elections are over now and they are in safe waters.
Possibly, this may actually be a good thing, at least as far as the internet is concerned. When governments realise that they can't get any "special exemptions" put in for them, the only real option left open is to throw their weight behind measures to secure the internet for everybody.
Problem here is: the german intelligence agencies rely on the US. So we may see some political show on the surface but beneath that, nothing will happen. If we (the Germans) are unlucky, it may even end up in a show where the politicians tell us that we need more secret agency involvement to "protect us from the US" which of course will only end up as another excuse to collect even more data. Same thing they tried to sell us with the "Schlandnet" where T-Online would take over the control within Germany. There was a interesting show on the 30C3 on this.
Of course, giving asylum to Snowden would definitively give a signal to Washington, but I would not advice Snowden to go to Germany.
With the current situation in Germany, Snowden would be dead or in a plane to Guantanamo in very little time. And I guess, even the German BND (comparable to the US NSA) would be helping. I would not trust any promises from a current German government -- by the way, how many US troops are in Germany? I guess, there is no count for US spies yet.
The US government doesn't realize the implications of their actions. A day will come when the US needs German help, support, or assistance in an area of global importance and the Germans will be very reluctant to help because of this.
The USA has had it good for a long time and has become very spoiled by it's priviledges.
Essentially, the US overplayed it's hand and there will be blow-back consequences.
I could imagine a terrorist living in Germany and the US asks for assistance obtaining him and the Germans tell the US to fuck off.
It doesn't even have to be a terrorist, it could be a person like Snowden. So, now, instead of assisting the US government, the Germans are actively working against them.
Or, I could see the Germans investing heavily in developing technologies that prevent spying. Germany could become a place where you learn how to NOT be spied on.
All this because the US Government doesn't know how to treat allies and respect sovereignty.
I genuinely hope a whole bunch of countries get together and stop using the USD altogether. Make the Euro the standard for Gold and Oil, etc, stop trading on the US-based stock markets, etc. etc.
America's economy is it's greatest vulnerability, and other countries could do great damage to it if they banded together and gave them the finger back.
> I could imagine a terrorist living in Germany and the US asks for assistance obtaining him and the Germans tell the US to fuck off.
I don't think that will ever happen. Dismantling a terrorist group is such a decidedly good thing that I'm sure everyone can agree on acting together. (Note though that the terrorist threat is greatly exaggerated (like in: it is several orders of magnitude less dangerous than the media implies).)
> It doesn't even have to be a terrorist, it could be a person like Snowden. So, now, instead of assisting the US government, the Germans are actively working against them.
You are kind of mixing positive and negative visions here. Supporting whistle blowers like Snowden should be a matter of course for a democratic nation.
"I could see the Germans investing heavily in developing technologies that prevent spying. Germany could become a place where you learn how to NOT be spied on."
This is already happening. The Washington Post had a story in November about how Berlin has become a new haven for leakers & privacy activists. Of course, it probably now makes Berlin one of the most heavily spied-on cities in the world.
I still can't imagine, that the current German government will draw any (slightest) consequences to the US behavior. I even think, that they don't believed themselves on a no-spy deal. But it was a clever cover-up to come across the election without to many penalties. And it worked ... German voters did not recognize a thing.
But of course it might harm the US in the future. There might come the day, that people in Germany and in other countries wake up. Also the US behavior hurts them in south american companies and at least in China. The south american people are fed up with the US behavior already!
The US government doesn't realize the implications of their actions. A day will come when the US needs German help, support, or assistance in an area of global importance and the Germans will be very reluctant to help because of this
Presumably you're referring to the US invasion of Iraq.
But I don't think something like the German refusal to cooperate back then is going to happen again. All that matters is money, and German's economy is (solely) based on exports. They need the American consumers for their own good, and German cooperations will make sure they keep their markets.
How ironic will it be if the next generation of German kids has to rise up to fight the totalitarian might of the USA? I see it happening, already .. truly a staggering circumstance that we are here now in the 21st Century, and not even Germany can stand up to the tyrants.
What's the point of a No Spy treaty if people will break it anyway? Being a cynic, if you're going to spy anyway, isn't it better to have a situation where everyone knows that everyone else is spying, and have fake outrage? (I'm assuming that the treaty won't stop anything)
The German government was hardly really negotiating a no-spy treaty. They benefit too much from the exchange with the US (at least that's what they think). Remember, the NSA is not supposed to spy on US citizens, just as the German BND is not supposed to spy on Germans. So they spy on each other's citizens and exchange the information.
So far so good for Merkel and friends. What probably upsetted them was that the German government was spied upon, too. Also, they were just second-grade allies, and the US was probably trading information with the UK for example, which they didn't share with the Germans (see the "Five Eyes" agreements). But it's hard to believe that any of this is news to the German government, if their intelligence agencies are any of their money worth.
So the big question is, why do they tolerate being spied on? I know, diplomacy is complicated, and you have to make a lot of delicate compromises, and there is a lot that you can't see from outside.
Nevertheless... Espionage is already punishable in Germany. If a German citizen is involved, they might even be charged with treason. If I were Merkel, I would just casually mention the possibility of pressing charges in this case (you can file charges against anonymous in Germany), and use this as leverage e.g. when negotiating trade agreements.
That is just theoretical stuff. Yes, theoretical there might be something like "treason" in some old law book ....
But, I don't remember one "treason" prosecution in my life time in Germany, with exception maybe to the DDR-Spy with Willi Brand as chancellor ... wow is this long ago!
Also, I think there should be filed charges against many people in Germanys current government because they don't stop the US to spy on German people and companies openly. But nothing happens.
Why, because in Germany there is no independent judiciary at all. There will be no prosecution without federal prosecutor, but all of them have to obey the government -- so no member of government or top politician will ever be prosecuted in Germany, whatever evil they do against the country or the people.
Germans should start understanding, that they don't live in freedom at all. It is just a mock-up.
Were they able to secure such a treaty, why would there be any expectation that it'd be meaningful?
After all there's and obvious disconnect between the various spy agencies and political process, with the former typically giving less than lip service to most treaties/laws in the past.
The relationship between Germany the US is quite special. After the WWII West Germany was occupied by the US, Britain and France - the East was occupied by the Soviet Union. Germany was under tight control from those countries. The US then decided to build up Germany again to use it as an ally against the Soviet block. The NATO then took over as the institution under which the various troops were deployed in West Germany and under which the various activities were coordinated.
After the reunification many rights of the Nato allies (and especially the US) were still protected.
Germany would need discuss with the allies how to change these older treaties. Plus it would also need to discuss with the US the shutdown of various activities of the US in Germany and against German interests:
* spying on Germany on German ground. The US has lots of installations here.
* spying on Germany from the outside (like tapping communication cables outside Germany which are going to Germany)
* using Germany has a base for various wars (Iraq, Afghanistan, various conflicts in Africa). For example the US has the Central Military Command for Africa in Germany. Drone strikes are coordinated by the US from Germany. The US has logistics centrals for their intelligence agencies in Germany.
* using Germany for various extremely unpopular actions, like using Germany as a transport hub for kidnapped people who were brought to torture camps in Europe or even to places outside Europe
> Were they able to secure such a treaty, why would there be any expectation that it'd be meaningful?
I would be very meaningful in a symbolic sense. Germany and most of Western Europe are used to seeing themselves as close allies of the US since WW2.
With close allies you expect to be able to reach an acceptable level of trust on topics like spying, even though you know both sides are still going to do it at some level.
By not being able to sign this agreement the message for Germans / US relations is "we trust you just like we trust the Chinese". That will likely lead to a weakening of past alliances...
There weren't any. The treaty was a method for chancellor to look like she reacts at least a little bit given the situation, while still effectively doing and changing nothing. The former was important because of the elections the later because germany is not a sovereign country.
This was only a cover-up by the Merkel administration to win the election in last autumn. Of course, some people that where in the delegation wanted to get some little success to bring home ... but the US showed that they are the rulers and the US is the big boss.
I hope, that slowly some people in Germany wake up. The success of Merkel shows, that many still dream their econony wonder (German: "Wirtschaftswunder") dream of the 70s. But the Germans do not realize, that they have been mucked around. Germans are the country in Europe that has sold their interests most to the US, maybe with the exception of Britain.
Some people realized that years ago, others still don't. It is a shame but Merkel is very popular, especially with older people that don't understand the implications of the NSA scandal.
I grew up in the US often hearing stories of Israeli intel agencies spying on the US. 'Everyone spies on everyone, even allies, it's no big deal,' was what everyone always said.
Besides the valid points already raised in the discussion it also shows that the US isn't considering the German intelligence service as a threat. Either because they expect German politicians not having the balls to order it to spy on the US government or because they consider it too incompetent to do so or because they have it in their pockets.
After reading this, I clicked on the "6 quotes on Germany from Americans" gallery. MLK Jr said "Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal."
[+] [-] sentenza|12 years ago|reply
Unlike the German rabble, its political leaders (with very rare exceptions) are personally invested in the "trans-atlantic partnership". The underlying assumption on the German side is of course that this is a partnership among equals.
Team Merkel is hoping sooo bad that a high-ranking US official will come out to tell them that they haven't been just a bunch of chumps. I wonder how they will react now that it has become clear that that won't happen.
They'll probably just step up their self-delusion game.
[+] [-] Argorak|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marcuspovey|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aluhut|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robrenaud|12 years ago|reply
Germany should respond by giving asylum to Snowden.
[+] [-] PythonicAlpha|12 years ago|reply
With the current situation in Germany, Snowden would be dead or in a plane to Guantanamo in very little time. And I guess, even the German BND (comparable to the US NSA) would be helping. I would not trust any promises from a current German government -- by the way, how many US troops are in Germany? I guess, there is no count for US spies yet.
[+] [-] rjzzleep|12 years ago|reply
disclaimer: i grew up there
[+] [-] socrates1998|12 years ago|reply
The USA has had it good for a long time and has become very spoiled by it's priviledges.
Essentially, the US overplayed it's hand and there will be blow-back consequences.
I could imagine a terrorist living in Germany and the US asks for assistance obtaining him and the Germans tell the US to fuck off.
It doesn't even have to be a terrorist, it could be a person like Snowden. So, now, instead of assisting the US government, the Germans are actively working against them.
Or, I could see the Germans investing heavily in developing technologies that prevent spying. Germany could become a place where you learn how to NOT be spied on.
All this because the US Government doesn't know how to treat allies and respect sovereignty.
[+] [-] grecy|12 years ago|reply
America's economy is it's greatest vulnerability, and other countries could do great damage to it if they banded together and gave them the finger back.
[+] [-] Perseids|12 years ago|reply
I don't think that will ever happen. Dismantling a terrorist group is such a decidedly good thing that I'm sure everyone can agree on acting together. (Note though that the terrorist threat is greatly exaggerated (like in: it is several orders of magnitude less dangerous than the media implies).)
> It doesn't even have to be a terrorist, it could be a person like Snowden. So, now, instead of assisting the US government, the Germans are actively working against them.
You are kind of mixing positive and negative visions here. Supporting whistle blowers like Snowden should be a matter of course for a democratic nation.
[+] [-] SyneRyder|12 years ago|reply
This is already happening. The Washington Post had a story in November about how Berlin has become a new haven for leakers & privacy activists. Of course, it probably now makes Berlin one of the most heavily spied-on cities in the world.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/leakers-privacy-a...
[+] [-] PythonicAlpha|12 years ago|reply
But of course it might harm the US in the future. There might come the day, that people in Germany and in other countries wake up. Also the US behavior hurts them in south american companies and at least in China. The south american people are fed up with the US behavior already!
[+] [-] kleiba|12 years ago|reply
Presumably you're referring to the US invasion of Iraq.
But I don't think something like the German refusal to cooperate back then is going to happen again. All that matters is money, and German's economy is (solely) based on exports. They need the American consumers for their own good, and German cooperations will make sure they keep their markets.
[+] [-] sschueller|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DangerousPie|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fit2rule|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bananacurve|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gadders|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mortyseinfeld|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mathattack|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ImprovedSilence|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wahsd|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] captainmuon|12 years ago|reply
So far so good for Merkel and friends. What probably upsetted them was that the German government was spied upon, too. Also, they were just second-grade allies, and the US was probably trading information with the UK for example, which they didn't share with the Germans (see the "Five Eyes" agreements). But it's hard to believe that any of this is news to the German government, if their intelligence agencies are any of their money worth.
So the big question is, why do they tolerate being spied on? I know, diplomacy is complicated, and you have to make a lot of delicate compromises, and there is a lot that you can't see from outside.
Nevertheless... Espionage is already punishable in Germany. If a German citizen is involved, they might even be charged with treason. If I were Merkel, I would just casually mention the possibility of pressing charges in this case (you can file charges against anonymous in Germany), and use this as leverage e.g. when negotiating trade agreements.
[+] [-] PythonicAlpha|12 years ago|reply
That is just theoretical stuff. Yes, theoretical there might be something like "treason" in some old law book .... But, I don't remember one "treason" prosecution in my life time in Germany, with exception maybe to the DDR-Spy with Willi Brand as chancellor ... wow is this long ago! Also, I think there should be filed charges against many people in Germanys current government because they don't stop the US to spy on German people and companies openly. But nothing happens.
Why, because in Germany there is no independent judiciary at all. There will be no prosecution without federal prosecutor, but all of them have to obey the government -- so no member of government or top politician will ever be prosecuted in Germany, whatever evil they do against the country or the people.
Germans should start understanding, that they don't live in freedom at all. It is just a mock-up.
[+] [-] Nanzikambe|12 years ago|reply
After all there's and obvious disconnect between the various spy agencies and political process, with the former typically giving less than lip service to most treaties/laws in the past.
[+] [-] lispm|12 years ago|reply
After the reunification many rights of the Nato allies (and especially the US) were still protected.
Germany would need discuss with the allies how to change these older treaties. Plus it would also need to discuss with the US the shutdown of various activities of the US in Germany and against German interests:
* spying on Germany on German ground. The US has lots of installations here.
* spying on Germany from the outside (like tapping communication cables outside Germany which are going to Germany)
* using Germany has a base for various wars (Iraq, Afghanistan, various conflicts in Africa). For example the US has the Central Military Command for Africa in Germany. Drone strikes are coordinated by the US from Germany. The US has logistics centrals for their intelligence agencies in Germany.
* using Germany for various extremely unpopular actions, like using Germany as a transport hub for kidnapped people who were brought to torture camps in Europe or even to places outside Europe
etc.etc.
[+] [-] harryf|12 years ago|reply
I would be very meaningful in a symbolic sense. Germany and most of Western Europe are used to seeing themselves as close allies of the US since WW2.
With close allies you expect to be able to reach an acceptable level of trust on topics like spying, even though you know both sides are still going to do it at some level.
By not being able to sign this agreement the message for Germans / US relations is "we trust you just like we trust the Chinese". That will likely lead to a weakening of past alliances...
[+] [-] onli|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bananacurve|12 years ago|reply
>A government spokesman said the talks between the US and Germany were ongoing and they hoped to “get something in the next three months.”
[+] [-] enkephalin|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikeash|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PythonicAlpha|12 years ago|reply
I hope, that slowly some people in Germany wake up. The success of Merkel shows, that many still dream their econony wonder (German: "Wirtschaftswunder") dream of the 70s. But the Germans do not realize, that they have been mucked around. Germans are the country in Europe that has sold their interests most to the US, maybe with the exception of Britain.
[+] [-] king_phil|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alexeisadeski3|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] quantumpotato_|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fafner|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] theandrewbailey|12 years ago|reply
Kinda hits the NSA nail on the head.