I know Google's policy on this, but I completely understand where the developer is coming from.
Google has been taking a collective shit on every developer out of its list of seller countries[0], which is ridiculously short and hasn't been expanded in god knows how long, and even then, there were only a handful of countries added.
On Google's page about seller countries they say: "We're working hard to add more countries, but we're unable to provide any guidance on timelines."
No, you're fucking not working hard, you added the last ones a year and a half ago. EU countries are missing, for fucks sake. These are countries where Android has 70, 80% of the market, and you're killing any sensible chance of developers making a living on mobile. And you're not allowing any other payment option, because hey, fuck the developers, they don't need to make a living.
And then you send me fucking developer feedback polls year after year, which you seemingly throw in the trash, because every single Android dev I know tells you the same damn thing, let us sell apps, everything else is irrelevant.
It's interesting seeing Google as a grown up company, with many of the flaws they acquired early on still intact and at Google scale. You can be spending $100ks per monthon adwords and still not have a competent person to call when you need help. EVen if you do, they don't know much and can't do much. Realistically, it's not much better than an outsourced call centre and much worse than the far less profitable Big Ads platform.
When the Nexus 4 went live, they didn't have anywhere near the stock needed to match demand. If you now want to buy a current nexus phone or tablet, you have to be in a country where they allow purchase. They would deliver a much better customer experience (and sell many more phones) if they just let Amazon handle selling them. They even redirect you away to a sorry page and don't let you see the product page. It all feels very non-native to the internet experience and oddly insulting.
Google Wave, Hangouts, Play store (webapps, chrome apps, plugins & android apps) all have bad branding/clarity problems. People just don't understand what these things are, even when they really try. WTF is a hangout? Why does it want to have my SMSs go through it. What is a chrome app? I've heard salespeople in gadget shops assure buyers that any app on their android phone will also be available for their Chromebook. Google don't know how to create the necessary nouns and verbs people can use to understand what these things are. They have a serious tendency towards zombocoms.
I had one of the first 100 apps ever published on Google Play (then called Android Market). After a few months being live, I eventually implemented my own in app purchases using PayPal. Back then Google had no support for any kind of paid apps (only free apps were allowed), and Apple hadn't introduced IAPs. Still, Google removed my app 3 times before I gave up republishing it.
Also, in the classic Google style, when I tried to reason with them, I was simply ignored.
PS: my country still isn't allowed to sell apps, although it's an EU country.
EDIT:
I want to add a clarification: Google always had this thing put in Google Play's terms and conditions. It was there when Android Market was unveiled, although another year and a half passed until they slowly started allowing people to sell apps. And they did it knowingly, just to push free apps which have ads as the only way of monetizing. Google IS an advertising company after all (98% of their revenue, right?)
I can understand your frustration. I am in a country from which you couldn't sell for a long time (but now can).
The thing that irked me was, when I signed up for an Android Market developer account there was no indication given to me that I won't be able to sell apps! I spent about two years developing an app and when it was time to publish the paid version, I discovered that I couldn't! That was one hell of a shocker! That was the first time I hated Google.
The biggest issue with anything Google related is absolute lack of communication/transparency. They have been baning web pages from Google AdSense and never told the owners why, without any way to appeal decision. The oracle has spoken, You are not worthy. Take this automatic reply message based on some words from your email.
I hate this bullshit, they've said exactly the same about my country for 3 years before actually adding seller support. They were about 3 years slower than Microsoft and Apple.
An expansion may never come. When they created their new policy requiring use of Google Play for all IAP, they could have easily carved out an exception for app teams not based in countries served by their payment system. Anyone bright enough to be hired by Google to write app store policies would have been smart enough to anticipate this scenario.
Since Google doesn't make glaring mistakes like this, it was intentional. The only logical conclusion is that Google wants all Android development outside of the countries it has named to cease immediately.
I couldn't have said it any better myself. In this instance, swearing is not only warranted: it's needed. I feel exactly the same way and have a friend who was burned by this exact policy all due to Google's inability to get off their billion dollar asses and make someone fix the problem.
It's not a coincidence that so many apps are iOS only. For example (I guess that) the recent success app Horizon is iOS only because the developers cannot sell from Greece through the Play store. The same happens for many apps from many countries.
Well I can tell you there's at least one country that has paid apps and isn't in that list, so maybe that list isn't updated either. I think you're right about them not moving fast enough with this, though. They've been historically slow with this since the Android Market days.
It also hurt them big time that their own payment option in the early days wasn't popular. Things could've been very different for Android revenue, if they wouldn't have forgotten about Google Checkout for virtually its entire life since they started it. They had to invent a whole new payment system (Wallet) to deal with Android payments, after they almost let Paypal be their default payment solution for the store, because their payment system situation was so incredibly pathetic at the time.
> No, you're fucking not working hard, you added the last ones a year and a half ago.
I'm not even a Google fanboy, but what do you know about the challenges that Google might be facing? It's a really strong accusation to say that a company is not working hard just because you can't have exactly what you want.
Last I checked, neither Google nor Apple make guarantees about how much of a living a developer is going to make from their platforms. You're not getting shit on; you're getting impatient because the gravy train that you're banking on hasn't poured itself all over you. If you want to make money, stop waiting for other people to do the dirty work for you.
TLDR: Application banned for not using a Google-blessed payment option which Google has not enabled for the country in which the developer actually lives.
In that case I guess the only other option is going completely free? How many developers will be willing to accept that position?
Do Google really think they can create a thriving ecosystem and market if they start throwing around inconsistent and conflicting rules and enforcement around apps?
Yes, inconsistent enforcement sort of worked for Apple, but they at least had a coherent platform. The things they required developers to use were actually available to the them.
Google asking developers to use things they wont enable for them is just a symbol of how Google has grown to such a size that the left hand no longer knows what the right hand is doing.
The main problem with Google is their lack of customer care. I had my Adsense account rejected a few years back for no reason (there was no bad activity) and when I appealed, their response was the same "We have reviewed your appeal and can't do anything about it."
And people claim the world is flat. It is not for us that need to jump through hoops just to be on the same 'playing level' with our compatriots overseas.
As a Nigerian, you cannot dare build any SaaS application because gateways that support recurring billing do not support Nigeria (and of course many other countries)
Basically, the fellow with this problem cannot build an Angry Birds without moving countries or jumping through hoops.
This kind of stuff makes me really mad. As an entrepreneur, you just have to keep fighting the obstacles and solve your problems.
For my new project, we have had to register a company in the US just so we can use Stripe. We still have more hoops to jump before we are ready to collect money.
If I were competing with some other folk, he would be already one moth ahead without having to spend a lot of money and time.
I feel it's an obvious problem that apps that allow IAP are listed as free. Has google or apple fixed this yet?
When browsing for apps there you may see a top app being free and another costing $1. You pick the "free" one and it turns out it is useless without an IAP whereas the $1 app perhaps would not. It turns out the free app costs $2 in order to function as well as the $1 app.
The consumer friendly thing to do would be to list any app that has any IAP enabled to be listed as non free, either using some special labeling (category "freemium" rather than "free"), or by listing the price as an interval rather than as the minimum.
It's come to the point where I really miss the time when many apps existed in two separate versions, a free and a premium version. Would that not have been the solution to this problem?
"You pick the "free" one and it turns out it is useless without an IAP whereas the $1 app perhaps would not. It turns out the free app costs $2 in order to function as well as the $1 app."
So uninstall it and shell out the $1 for the other one. FFS, why is this hard?
As a developer I feel this pain as well. On the WinRT platform you actually have the "trial version"-flag which allows the user to test it before they pay. This feature is useless in the same sense as paid app is, since everyone is going for the freemium model anyway to conceal the cost of the app.
The two version solution (free/premium) doesn't allow sharing ratings. Developers don't like that, because they want their free uptake to give higher rating to their premium option.
Splitting the options up would make perfect sense if the two apps are grouped up in some way.
I'm an Android user who has had a problem with the google app market since I got my first Android phone 2.5 yrs ago. Since they transitioned to Google Play, I haven't even agreed to the new terms of service! Of course, this means I don't get apps through the play store.
Instead, I get apps through either F-Droid (https://f-droid.org/) or Aptoide (http://www.aptoide.com/). F-Droid is only for free and open source apps; although I have upgraded to paid versions from restricted apps I found via F-Droid, so don't completely rule it out. Frankly, I don't understand why more developers don't use services like Aptoide.
The only negative is that I also like knowing that an application is "the application" it claims to be (not a name-the-same app). So I will normally find a developer's page, then follow their provided link to their Aptoide or F-Droid entry.
So quit complaining about google's restrictions and post your apps where people like me can pay you good money for them! If enough developers and consumers go this route then the new g-men will have to adapt to market forces.
Official app stores are quasi-monopolies and need government control.
Think about all the time and work the developer has invested. And can't be possible for google to effectively keep him from selling the app just because they feel like it. If they have an app distribution monopoly, developers have a right to publish their app there. It is not a favor google grants. This is something laws have to enforce as companies like google demonstrably harm this right on their own. It's either this or opening up the app store concept.
>> "Official app stores are quasi-monopolies and need government control."
They aren't and they don't. They are a store like any other and the store owner can decide not to sell your products without a good reason if they want to. On Android there are several alternative stores (most notably Amazon) not to mention apps can be installed directly by downloading the APK without any device modification.
>> "Think about all the time and work the developer has invested."
The developer made this business decision knowing fully the risks involved.
>> "And can't be possible for google to effectively keep him from selling the app just because they feel like it. If they have an app distribution monopoly, developers have a right to publish their app there. It is not a favor google grants."
See my first point. Google is a store and can reject you for no reason. There are several alternatives to selling through their store. It is a favour Google grants and you have no right to be there.
>> "This is something laws have to enforce as companies like google demonstrably harm this right on their own. It's either this or opening up the app store concept."
Again it is not a right and the app store 'concept' is open as anyone can create their own store and several have. You can also distribute without a store through your own website. Or you can create a web app. There are plenty of ways for consumers to get your product that do not require Google.
> Official app stores are quasi-monopolies and need government control.
I highly doubt that the government that might address it (the US government) would take a stand that would protect a Nigerian developer. Government regulation isn't the answer to everything. Extra app stores are.
There go my idea for profitability out of the window.
I am from Brazil, here the only way to pay for Google play stuff is with international credit card, that is quite uncommon here, the result is that here in Brazil I have the highest downloads, but still one of the last places in gross income, the conversion ratio is terrible because people don't figure how to pay. With Google forcing devs to use its billing system, mean the situation is unfixable :(
Adding payment countries probably requires someone from Google to talk to someone. Google is not good at talking to people.
I don't mean that as a troll but an observation - you see this over and over with Google: if the problem requires someone other than a shut-in with tremendous technical talent, they do a poor job of it (customer service, enterprise, support, ...)
Dare I say it but when a company has a certain level of dominance in a "channel" then they need be subject to regulation.
A channel might be any means of reaching customers whether a telecomms provider, a form of media, or in this case, a device app store.
The total control a gate-keeper has on the survival of tangentially related companies by eliminating their access to customers is simply not right. They should be held accountable for their incompetence or ill-will.
"Thank you for your note. We have reviewed your appeal and will not be reinstating your app. This decision is final and we will not be responding to any additional emails regarding this removal."
So that whole "don't be evil" thing was just a crock of shit? Good to know. Thanks, Google.
This is a business opportunity for those, who live in supported countries. Sell apps on Google Play for people living in unsupported countries, and agree that you take some % of payments, i.e. act as a distributor.
I believe it should not be difficult to formulate such relationship that it will be legal, transparent and reliable for both parties.
>Thank you for your note. We have reviewed your appeal and will not be reinstating your app. This decision is final and we will not be responding to any additional emails regarding this removal
Sounds familiar. I got a similar response years back when I emailed them after they decided that I had committed click fraud (I hadn't) and closed my AdSense account, taking all of my ad revenue with it.
Good to hear that Google still hasn't learned how to treat people.
At least when you deal with Apple they don't dress it up, they make it abundantly clear that they'll shaft you if you try and step around the rules, Google danced around it with the rally cry of 'open!' a lot more.
The relevant part of the Developer Distribution Agreement appears to be 3.3:
"Such free trials for Products are encouraged. However, if you want to collect fees after the free trial expires, you must collect all fees for the full version of the Product through the Payment Processor on the Market."
I would understand this if they wouldn't allow completely free applications in the app store. But as it is, remove something just because it uses another form of monetization? Why not remove free apps that have non-google ads in them?
I'm confused. Lets say I have a web app where users are billed monthly through PayPal. Now I want to release an Android version of my app that has a 'Login' button but not a 'Sign Up' button (that is, sign up can only be done through the website). Can I keep PayPal as my sole billing mechanism?
[+] [-] napoleoncomplex|12 years ago|reply
Google has been taking a collective shit on every developer out of its list of seller countries[0], which is ridiculously short and hasn't been expanded in god knows how long, and even then, there were only a handful of countries added.
On Google's page about seller countries they say: "We're working hard to add more countries, but we're unable to provide any guidance on timelines."
No, you're fucking not working hard, you added the last ones a year and a half ago. EU countries are missing, for fucks sake. These are countries where Android has 70, 80% of the market, and you're killing any sensible chance of developers making a living on mobile. And you're not allowing any other payment option, because hey, fuck the developers, they don't need to make a living.
And then you send me fucking developer feedback polls year after year, which you seemingly throw in the trash, because every single Android dev I know tells you the same damn thing, let us sell apps, everything else is irrelevant.
Wake the fuck up Google.
[0]https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...
ps. sorry for the language, this has been boiling for more than two years now...
[+] [-] netcan|12 years ago|reply
When the Nexus 4 went live, they didn't have anywhere near the stock needed to match demand. If you now want to buy a current nexus phone or tablet, you have to be in a country where they allow purchase. They would deliver a much better customer experience (and sell many more phones) if they just let Amazon handle selling them. They even redirect you away to a sorry page and don't let you see the product page. It all feels very non-native to the internet experience and oddly insulting.
Google Wave, Hangouts, Play store (webapps, chrome apps, plugins & android apps) all have bad branding/clarity problems. People just don't understand what these things are, even when they really try. WTF is a hangout? Why does it want to have my SMSs go through it. What is a chrome app? I've heard salespeople in gadget shops assure buyers that any app on their android phone will also be available for their Chromebook. Google don't know how to create the necessary nouns and verbs people can use to understand what these things are. They have a serious tendency towards zombocoms.
This is just one more example.
[+] [-] zrgiu_|12 years ago|reply
PS: my country still isn't allowed to sell apps, although it's an EU country.
EDIT: I want to add a clarification: Google always had this thing put in Google Play's terms and conditions. It was there when Android Market was unveiled, although another year and a half passed until they slowly started allowing people to sell apps. And they did it knowingly, just to push free apps which have ads as the only way of monetizing. Google IS an advertising company after all (98% of their revenue, right?)
[+] [-] hrjet|12 years ago|reply
The thing that irked me was, when I signed up for an Android Market developer account there was no indication given to me that I won't be able to sell apps! I spent about two years developing an app and when it was time to publish the paid version, I discovered that I couldn't! That was one hell of a shocker! That was the first time I hated Google.
[+] [-] ucho|12 years ago|reply
The biggest issue with anything Google related is absolute lack of communication/transparency. They have been baning web pages from Google AdSense and never told the owners why, without any way to appeal decision. The oracle has spoken, You are not worthy. Take this automatic reply message based on some words from your email.
[+] [-] RivieraKid|12 years ago|reply
I hate this bullshit, they've said exactly the same about my country for 3 years before actually adding seller support. They were about 3 years slower than Microsoft and Apple.
[+] [-] downandout|12 years ago|reply
Since Google doesn't make glaring mistakes like this, it was intentional. The only logical conclusion is that Google wants all Android development outside of the countries it has named to cease immediately.
[+] [-] DigitalSea|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nopakos|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] higherpurpose|12 years ago|reply
It also hurt them big time that their own payment option in the early days wasn't popular. Things could've been very different for Android revenue, if they wouldn't have forgotten about Google Checkout for virtually its entire life since they started it. They had to invent a whole new payment system (Wallet) to deal with Android payments, after they almost let Paypal be their default payment solution for the store, because their payment system situation was so incredibly pathetic at the time.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-13/paypal-said-to-be-i...
http://www.androidguys.com/2011/11/02/signs-of-paypal-found-...
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] peterashford|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bent_rayner|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] rmrfrmrf|12 years ago|reply
I'm not even a Google fanboy, but what do you know about the challenges that Google might be facing? It's a really strong accusation to say that a company is not working hard just because you can't have exactly what you want.
Last I checked, neither Google nor Apple make guarantees about how much of a living a developer is going to make from their platforms. You're not getting shit on; you're getting impatient because the gravy train that you're banking on hasn't poured itself all over you. If you want to make money, stop waiting for other people to do the dirty work for you.
[+] [-] josteink|12 years ago|reply
In that case I guess the only other option is going completely free? How many developers will be willing to accept that position?
Do Google really think they can create a thriving ecosystem and market if they start throwing around inconsistent and conflicting rules and enforcement around apps?
Yes, inconsistent enforcement sort of worked for Apple, but they at least had a coherent platform. The things they required developers to use were actually available to the them.
Google asking developers to use things they wont enable for them is just a symbol of how Google has grown to such a size that the left hand no longer knows what the right hand is doing.
This is like watching Microsoft all over again.
[+] [-] ishansharma|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alextingle|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] teh_klev|12 years ago|reply
Doing what, specifically?
[+] [-] NickSharp|12 years ago|reply
Right or wrong, there is no way Google is going to let developers use Paypal instead of their own Google billing, for which they keep 30%.
[+] [-] OoTheNigerian|12 years ago|reply
As a Nigerian, you cannot dare build any SaaS application because gateways that support recurring billing do not support Nigeria (and of course many other countries)
Basically, the fellow with this problem cannot build an Angry Birds without moving countries or jumping through hoops.
This kind of stuff makes me really mad. As an entrepreneur, you just have to keep fighting the obstacles and solve your problems.
For my new project, we have had to register a company in the US just so we can use Stripe. We still have more hoops to jump before we are ready to collect money.
If I were competing with some other folk, he would be already one moth ahead without having to spend a lot of money and time.
It's really fucked up.
[+] [-] mastersk3|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alkonaut|12 years ago|reply
When browsing for apps there you may see a top app being free and another costing $1. You pick the "free" one and it turns out it is useless without an IAP whereas the $1 app perhaps would not. It turns out the free app costs $2 in order to function as well as the $1 app.
The consumer friendly thing to do would be to list any app that has any IAP enabled to be listed as non free, either using some special labeling (category "freemium" rather than "free"), or by listing the price as an interval rather than as the minimum.
It's come to the point where I really miss the time when many apps existed in two separate versions, a free and a premium version. Would that not have been the solution to this problem?
[+] [-] al2o3cr|12 years ago|reply
So uninstall it and shell out the $1 for the other one. FFS, why is this hard?
[+] [-] Nilzor|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ishansharma|12 years ago|reply
In iTunes & Web, there's a section for popular IAP under the app icon.
[+] [-] arithma|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yaddayadda|12 years ago|reply
Instead, I get apps through either F-Droid (https://f-droid.org/) or Aptoide (http://www.aptoide.com/). F-Droid is only for free and open source apps; although I have upgraded to paid versions from restricted apps I found via F-Droid, so don't completely rule it out. Frankly, I don't understand why more developers don't use services like Aptoide.
The only negative is that I also like knowing that an application is "the application" it claims to be (not a name-the-same app). So I will normally find a developer's page, then follow their provided link to their Aptoide or F-Droid entry.
So quit complaining about google's restrictions and post your apps where people like me can pay you good money for them! If enough developers and consumers go this route then the new g-men will have to adapt to market forces.
[+] [-] st0neage|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] k-mcgrady|12 years ago|reply
They aren't and they don't. They are a store like any other and the store owner can decide not to sell your products without a good reason if they want to. On Android there are several alternative stores (most notably Amazon) not to mention apps can be installed directly by downloading the APK without any device modification.
>> "Think about all the time and work the developer has invested."
The developer made this business decision knowing fully the risks involved.
>> "And can't be possible for google to effectively keep him from selling the app just because they feel like it. If they have an app distribution monopoly, developers have a right to publish their app there. It is not a favor google grants."
See my first point. Google is a store and can reject you for no reason. There are several alternatives to selling through their store. It is a favour Google grants and you have no right to be there.
>> "This is something laws have to enforce as companies like google demonstrably harm this right on their own. It's either this or opening up the app store concept."
Again it is not a right and the app store 'concept' is open as anyone can create their own store and several have. You can also distribute without a store through your own website. Or you can create a web app. There are plenty of ways for consumers to get your product that do not require Google.
[+] [-] einhverfr|12 years ago|reply
I highly doubt that the government that might address it (the US government) would take a stand that would protect a Nigerian developer. Government regulation isn't the answer to everything. Extra app stores are.
[+] [-] speeder|12 years ago|reply
I am from Brazil, here the only way to pay for Google play stuff is with international credit card, that is quite uncommon here, the result is that here in Brazil I have the highest downloads, but still one of the last places in gross income, the conversion ratio is terrible because people don't figure how to pay. With Google forcing devs to use its billing system, mean the situation is unfixable :(
[+] [-] mschuster91|12 years ago|reply
Like with Coinbase, Hacker News is not supposed to be the only place in the fucking world where you get heard as a small fish (Reddit aside)...
[+] [-] outside1234|12 years ago|reply
I don't mean that as a troll but an observation - you see this over and over with Google: if the problem requires someone other than a shut-in with tremendous technical talent, they do a poor job of it (customer service, enterprise, support, ...)
[+] [-] duncanawoods|12 years ago|reply
A channel might be any means of reaching customers whether a telecomms provider, a form of media, or in this case, a device app store.
The total control a gate-keeper has on the survival of tangentially related companies by eliminating their access to customers is simply not right. They should be held accountable for their incompetence or ill-will.
[+] [-] parfe|12 years ago|reply
IOS on the other hand does have that issue.
[+] [-] booruguru|12 years ago|reply
So that whole "don't be evil" thing was just a crock of shit? Good to know. Thanks, Google.
[+] [-] avodonosov|12 years ago|reply
I believe it should not be difficult to formulate such relationship that it will be legal, transparent and reliable for both parties.
[+] [-] mistercow|12 years ago|reply
Sounds familiar. I got a similar response years back when I emailed them after they decided that I had committed click fraud (I hadn't) and closed my AdSense account, taking all of my ad revenue with it.
Good to hear that Google still hasn't learned how to treat people.
[+] [-] nicholassmith|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lucaspiller|12 years ago|reply
"Such free trials for Products are encouraged. However, if you want to collect fees after the free trial expires, you must collect all fees for the full version of the Product through the Payment Processor on the Market."
http://play.google.com/about/developer-distribution-agreemen...
[+] [-] rplnt|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alextingle|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Roritharr|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alextingle|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mitochondrion|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] higherpurpose|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MarkMc|12 years ago|reply