"It’s almost impossible to feel like part of a community if you’re not highly proficient in the language. Even non-native speakers who are fluent enough to read posts in their second or third languages often aren’t comfortable enough to write in them."
Wow, this is true! I am brazilian and you have no idea how much effort I put in writing every single comment here on HN. And the longer de comment is, the more stupid mistakes I make; e.g., i usually write "no" instead of "know" or vice-versa, just because in my brazilian mind they sound exactly the same. And at my most voted comment ever I wrote "maked" instead of "made". No one mentioned (?) it, but I still feel the shame.
I think it is a great move by SO, lots and lots of developers I meet here (i am not one) don't speak fluent english. Our basic education is very poor (in every aspect, including english language there). If we want a world where everyone can learn to code/develop early in life, this sure come in hand in Brazil, where there is a huge just-got-out-of-poverty youth that didn't learn english at all, but could easily learn to code.
Congrats SO!
edit: I noticed I just wrote "de" instead of "the". Stupidest mistake I often make. Again, just because in my mind they sound exactly the same - and "de" is a word (of) in portuguese. Gosh, I make this mistake for so long, I should have learned already.
There is a real brutal grammar nazi trend I've been seeing recently on various sites - apparently, someone gets a buzz of self entitled superiority off of correcting someones grammar mistakes.
Personally? I think English is insanely stupid, inefficient, and dumb. I speak it because I have to, not because I want to, because everyone else does it. If you think trying to get breakout success in a market with, say, a software product is, try thinking of a way to create an "optimal" language (ie, glyphs only trace to possible human vocalization, but it covers the entire range - English doesn't, for example. And your words are a huffman tree - the most popular ones are the shortest, though that can only ever be realized when the language is conceived since the common vernacular shifts over time).
Now try to figure out how to get that market penetration.
I agree with "soneca", I am from Brazil too and I'm not so confortable to answer in English, but this never stopped me to ask, to answer or whatever... I mean, the real insight is continous learning, we cannot be in the comfort zone. Distribute and divide will result in duplicate QA, duplicated knowledge and maybe feel a little "it is better to us, not mixing in with these people"
No one mentioned (?) it, but I still feel the shame.
I'm pretty verbose, I love my words, and people around me sometimes come to me with questions about words or their history and the like... and I still make the same mistakes you do. I often put the wrong word in when typing quickly, or edit the middle of a sentence forgetting to fix the overall context. Errors are not just due to proficiency in language, but also due to typing skills or low points in attention (pre-morning caffeine).
The thing is, most people will forgive minor mess-ups if it's clear what you actually meant. It's not something to worry about in internet commentary, which is more like an informal chat than formal writing. If you were writing a scientific paper or a politician's speech, this is the time to be concerned about the formal structure and specifics of what's going on.
Edit: it's not to say don't try, just to say don't beat yourself up over small mistakes.
Agreed, writing posts/comments in English as a non-native speaker (with anxiety issues) is a real endeavour. Thankfully I've put so much time in it already that I can be reasonably certain that what I write is correct, and "flows" well, but I can definitely relate to your struggles.
We are used to subconsciously "translating" what is actually meant from the exact words used, in part because so many people speak English as a second language (that they aren't particularly fluent in), in part because English is such an irregular language in places due to its historical development so even native speakers get a pile of things wrong, and in part because a lot of people particularly online deliberately get it wrong (building their own slang, references, and linguistic in-jokes that often eventually leak out into the wider awareness), and of course also in part because people who do know what is right sometimes make genuine mistakes.
The trick in any language is not to be perfect: it is about getting your message across and understanding other people's communication. If your English is good enough that I can understand your meaning without any great effort on my part, and you can understand what I'm trying to say, then your English is good enough (in fact possibly better, at least formally speaking, than some people native to the language!). Of course you should always strive to improve your skills, but try not to stress over it too much.
Then again, a lot of people here (and elsewhere) aren't speaking english natively and might notice a mistake, but can relate to it because they're in the same boat.
Writing a longer text like you just did can take quite a bit of time and attention, and I think everyone who is in the same situation will acknowledge that as long as the text isn't an unreadable mess.
> edit: I noticed I just wrote "de" instead of "the". Stupidest mistake I often make.
I've worked with a lot of developers from China, who themselves work with developers in India. On a conference call the China sysadmin announces they've verified the C Jia Jia environment and the India developer totally knows what they mean.
>edit: I noticed I just wrote "de" instead of "the". Stupidest mistake I often make. Again, just because in my mind they sound exactly the same - and "de" is a word (of) in portuguese. Gosh, I make this mistake for so long, I should have learned already.
Thanks for explaining this! I work with a few people in South America and they write "de" all the time in e-mails. I kind of figured that's why it happens.
I can relate to this too. This is why I lack participation in HN discussions even though I've been here for about 3 years and always checking HN regularly.
English is my third language and I barely speak it at home. So I still feel really uncomfortable and difficult to express my mind in English.
People barely now this, but theres a social inclusion aspect by creating the portuguese version of StackOverflow.
In Brazil, at least, only the kids of wealthy families have access to private english courses..
In regular school its just too weak to make a difference.. and of course there are the self-taughts.. a minority..
So, there are a very good social inclusion aspect in all of this.. make the rookie programmers start with the portuguese version.. then maybe they will just hit the english with time.. imposing a language barrier is a sort of elitism that will create a virtual barrier that doesnt do good to anyone..
I dont know why people rant about it, since all the good content is already in english language..
Allow even more people to enter into the technology world is a good thing.. let them learn english later, when theres a need..
I have strongly mixed feelings on this. When I was a kid my family moved to Brazil for a couple of years and I learned Portuguese. When I was about 20 I moved to Chile and learned Spanish. Speaking the language of the culture you are in is hugely important - and not very easy.
So on the one hand if the culture of programming is in English (is it?) then I would strongly encourage anyone wanting to program to learn English. On the other hand, helping inject a programming environment into another language seems a worthy goal as well. On balance it seems like stackoverflow is doing the right thing.
Yup, totally centralized. Spent half an hour figuring out where my question should go (StackOverflow vs Programming vs ServerFault vs SuperUser vs Ubuntu vs Unix-and-Linux). Ended up not asking the question at all.
Shall they open some foreign embassies, I guess users'll spend 10 minutes more deciding in which language should they ask (i.e. whenever they prefer native language or bigger community) or duplicate the question.
The idea of centralization is not inherently incompatible with the idea of categorization.
And it's really not that hard in most cases. Is it an objective question about writing code? It goes on Stack Overflow. Is it about programming as a broader topic? It goes on Programmers. Is it about servers or systems administration? It goes on ServerFault. Is it about general computing? It goes on SuperUser. Is it a highly subjective question about programming? Stack Exchange is not interested in your question.
(I do agree that SO and Programmers seem more like an artificial division than natural categories, but I still don't find it that hard to figure out whether a question is good for SO.)
The only difficult difference here is Stack Overflow vs Programming, the others are pretty descriptive. The difference is not too hard to understand, but still not intuitive for a new user.
There is also some overlap, so if you have a question about Ubuntu you can also ask it on Unix&Linux.
If you are fluent in English, ask in English. It has now the biggest community and is the lingua franca of programming.
The important point is that the moderation should encourage the participation of the not native speakers. If someone post a good question or answer with a few grammatical mistakes, then the expected behavior should be to fix the text and not mock the author.
If you feel like wanting to give back to the community, answer in your native language site, if it exists.
[Disclaimer: I’m a native Spanish speaker, ES-AR to be more precise.]
As an America who spent years in Brazil (hence the username), both teaching English, and programming together with a lot of software developers there (always speaking in Portuguese), I think this is great.
I never met a developer who had zero English skills. But I also met very, very few developers who could really converse fluently in English. I realized how much additional difficulty a lot of them have with coding, because a lot of them time they can't "just Google it" to find a snippet of code that fixes their problem, or that documents a known platform bug.
And remember that learning English, while not living in an English-speaking country, generally takes years of dedicated work -- you're probably either going to become a good programmer, or good at English, but most people are not going to have the time for both, that's just reality.
So this is a great move on Stack Overflow's part. Kudos. (Plus, Brazilians are basically the world's most active social-network users, so there's always that, too.)
Programming specific I think is easier in English.
I speak 3 languages and understand 4. Talking about programming, computer science and technology in non-Engish is awkward. It either is necessary to just use English terms anyway for every other noun or struggle with awkward translation of them.
Things like kernel, doubly linked list, hash table, binary tree, greedy algorithm, they are all invented in English and when translating them to other languages, they have a translation but it just sounds very awkward.
So you can have 2 people talking and one uses all translated terminology one uses the "native" equivalent. And yeah if both happen to speak English they'll understand what they mean, but if they don't then they might as well speak different languages. But if they already speak English and it is a public forum, might as well try to speak English.
Perhaps the point isn't so much the translation of technical jargon, but the ability to discuss meaning and explain nuances. If you work in say, a Japanese environment, you might well pepper your Japanese conversation with terms like "kernel", "hash table", but the sense of your conversation is mostly contained within the Japanese portion of the vocabulary used.
I wonder how corporate programmers in non-english speaking countries communicate about programming. I would imagine that they use their local language for docs, commit descriptions, email lists, etc.
I think most of the source code people can look at is for open source projects and they always go with english as the default even when there are mostly non-english speaking programmers.
But what does it look inside private corporations?
Exactly. My native language is not English (it's Lithuanian) but when I talk about some rather hard-core topics (such as embedded systems), I just say that I will switch to English and continue talking in English. Because a mix of 70% English and 30% Non-English words is just annoying. When talking about general programming, nothing too deep, I am fine with my native language. You might think I am an arrogant ass hole, but...
If I am talking with another person that speaks my mother tongue I'd rather keep just the nouns awkward instead of making the whole conversation sound awkward. TBH, keeping jargon untranslated is not that big of a deal. Jargon is its own separate vocabulary - its not as if a non-techie english speaker will know what you are talking about if you mention a kernels or a data bus.
Adoption of English language is one of the major reasons, why 3rd world countries like our, India and Pakistan are thriving in IT. I feel sad for nations, who are stubborn in their adoption of English language, merely out of political reasons. Even from a political perspective, this is sad, because you can't convey your point of view to others.
I, for one, am amazed that this would need justification at all. (And that half the comments here seem to be saying that devs should 'just learn English'.)
Languages with many speakers have their own 'world'. Kids, and people without higher education in such language areas won't have much opportunity to pick up English. They'll start out without access to English language programming communities. The only way they'll get anywhere in the field is to have alternatives in their own language.
As a non-native English speaker, I have pretty strong feelings about English in engineering in general: everyone should just learn English.
I see it as a remarkably good thing that engineering (and to some extent science) has standardised so much on English and I can only hope that all other walks of life will as well.
It would be so nice if everyone on earth spoke excellent English.
I am an immigrant from China and I came to the States after finishing sixth grade so I can still read and write in Chinese. Perfectly excellent. The advantage of that is I can utilize more resources that are only available in Chinese. You'd surprise how often Chinese programmers leave useful code snippets or tips in Chinese. So knowing a foreign language can definitely help.
While I agree having a non-English version helps growing the community (as pointed out in the article it could help a young girl to get started), but I am worrying about fragmentation. Also, SO tends to be pretty strict about the way a post is written - so a little girl who is making a post will either be closed or forced to edit. I don't know - it is as if I want people to take the hard route because it can benefit them in the long run.
I really have a mixed feelings about this too.
Side note:
That probably limits the list of potential candidates to Mandarin, Japanese, Portuguese, Russian...
Hmmm it's Chinese since people write in Chinese characters. Mandarin is a dialectic.
instead of starting a brand new stack overflow in another language they should think of some way of letting people translate questions & answers and earn karma for that. this way, like wikipedia, you can always go from one language to another for the translation
This is AWESOME! I even get emotional about this and here is why.
TL;DR: I am a Brazilian and it would have been much easier for me if I had the resources I needed available in my mother language.
Long story:
I am a Brazilian. I was born in a small town in Brazil (population: 13k) and I only had access to public schools. Public schools in Brazil do have English classes, however all I remember was them teaching the verb "to be" in every single grade.
When I was 15, in 1998, my mom found a way to finance a cheap computer for me. My first access to a computer. Everything was in English. I did not have access to internet initially, but the computer came with a few softwares installed. At the time I also asked my mom to buy me a translation dictionary, so I could learn English. Translating most of the things I was seeing on the screen did not make sense at all, so I just assumed them as part of my vocabulary giving them meanings, but not translations, like "software", or software names...
Later, with access to internet (long distance dial up after midnight), it was really, REALLY, hard to search for stuff related to programming because there was almost nothing available in portuguese. I had to learn how to translate properly what I was looking for before I could even do the search. Not sure native English speakers understand this part.
So what I tried to do instead was to learn English. I did that by finding lyrics of the songs I liked online (they were easy to find since no translation was needed) and translating them with the help from my dictionary. And this is basically how I learned most of the English that I know. (In fact, I never went to a real English school/class, as you can probably tell at this point by reading this).
But dude, I was able to do this because I put A LOT of effort and hours, and nights, doing this, day after day, because I really wanted to learn. (It paid off... I am a H1B living in Miami today)
Learning English is not for everyone. Learning another language is not for everyone.
Learning how to code IS WAY MUCH FUN than learning how to speak another language.
While I always tell people to try to learn English, because they're going to have better chances, I believe this should not be a barrier for the average people to learn programming. Or anything, really.
You have no idea of how many great developers in Brazil do not speak proficient English.
So, thanks to the guys at Stack Overflow for doing this. I'll make sure I share this with everyone I know that always wanted to learn programming but had English as a barrier.
I am confident that the IT industry in Brazil will be thankful for this in the long term.
> I never went to a real English school/class, as you can probably tell at this point by reading this
No, I couldn't. You give yourself too little credit. Except for "way much fun", everything you wrote was perfect idiomatic English.
I actually think a lot of us native English speakers are kind of jealous that we have little incentive to become proficient in a foreign language since so much of the worlds information and communication is in English. I know I am. I'm trying to learn Portuguese right now, just for fun, but I know I will never be as fluent in it as you are in English.
Would you have learned English if it hadn't been a by-product of learning about computers and programming? I'm ashamed to admit that I didn't really even try to learn a little Portugese while I was in Brazil.
SO isn't anything special, or a complicated site. There is no reason a Portuguese equivalent couldn't be whipped up by someone from Portugal or Brazil.
I see nothing wrong about programmers who want to discuss or exchange experience etc. in their native language. I'm one of such guys... English is not my first language, either.
The thing is that the SO format is not suited for extended discussions. Its power lies and shows in brevity.
Like it or not - good working knowledge of English is a must if you consider yourself a professional. (In this field, of course; it's very specific).
If your English doesn't allow you to freely elaborate on the caveats of system architecture, working culture and whatnot, it's perfectly fine in my opinion and nothing to fret about.
But if you can't ask a brief technical question, or you stumble trying to answer one, that's a shortcoming that should be addressed. For your own good, nobody's else
A really bad idea. Now a really good answer or tip that would otherwise be on the 'regular' stackoverflow (albeit in broken English) will remain, unknown, on a 'pt.overflow.' That is one drawback. Another drawback, an English only stackoverflow helps a Portuguese speaking person to learn another language that is, now, more universal. Yet another, it fractures an otherwise more unified community.
My mother tongue is Spanish, yet I have no issues with an English only stackoverflow, at all.
I struggle to imagine a developer who is _talented_ (in actual real sense of this) in programming yet cannot ask/answer a tech question in English (I am not a native speaker). Has anyone met a person like this?
It used to be StackOverflow, I'd go search for something and ask if the search would yield nothing. Now they have a thousand sites and I don't know which one to look at, or ask questions on.
I believe the solution to that is to not aim for a specific site and use its search; use a regular web search instead and trust that SO and gang make their sites indexable. That certainly seems to be the case. I have a particular SO question I often reference in order to link to it in answers and comments; I always just google two words to find it.
With a few friends, i've been running a ruby bulletin board in german and found that there is a definite need for localized assistance.
While quite a few people can read english docs okay, it is far harder to ask proper questions and interact with people. There is always need for clarification. Assistance is far easier without a language barrier.
I have been in Portugal two years ago and everybody, I mean EVERYBODY told me that all Portuguese people speak English, because every movie comes with subtitles only (no sound translation), and most of the films are English. They only translates cartoons for small kids.
I mean, is Portuguese the best language to start with?
[+] [-] soneca|12 years ago|reply
Wow, this is true! I am brazilian and you have no idea how much effort I put in writing every single comment here on HN. And the longer de comment is, the more stupid mistakes I make; e.g., i usually write "no" instead of "know" or vice-versa, just because in my brazilian mind they sound exactly the same. And at my most voted comment ever I wrote "maked" instead of "made". No one mentioned (?) it, but I still feel the shame.
I think it is a great move by SO, lots and lots of developers I meet here (i am not one) don't speak fluent english. Our basic education is very poor (in every aspect, including english language there). If we want a world where everyone can learn to code/develop early in life, this sure come in hand in Brazil, where there is a huge just-got-out-of-poverty youth that didn't learn english at all, but could easily learn to code.
Congrats SO!
edit: I noticed I just wrote "de" instead of "the". Stupidest mistake I often make. Again, just because in my mind they sound exactly the same - and "de" is a word (of) in portuguese. Gosh, I make this mistake for so long, I should have learned already.
[+] [-] icelancer|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zanny|12 years ago|reply
Personally? I think English is insanely stupid, inefficient, and dumb. I speak it because I have to, not because I want to, because everyone else does it. If you think trying to get breakout success in a market with, say, a software product is, try thinking of a way to create an "optimal" language (ie, glyphs only trace to possible human vocalization, but it covers the entire range - English doesn't, for example. And your words are a huffman tree - the most popular ones are the shortest, though that can only ever be realized when the language is conceived since the common vernacular shifts over time).
Now try to figure out how to get that market penetration.
[+] [-] michelutti|12 years ago|reply
I agree with "soneca", I am from Brazil too and I'm not so confortable to answer in English, but this never stopped me to ask, to answer or whatever... I mean, the real insight is continous learning, we cannot be in the comfort zone. Distribute and divide will result in duplicate QA, duplicated knowledge and maybe feel a little "it is better to us, not mixing in with these people"
[+] [-] vacri|12 years ago|reply
I'm pretty verbose, I love my words, and people around me sometimes come to me with questions about words or their history and the like... and I still make the same mistakes you do. I often put the wrong word in when typing quickly, or edit the middle of a sentence forgetting to fix the overall context. Errors are not just due to proficiency in language, but also due to typing skills or low points in attention (pre-morning caffeine).
The thing is, most people will forgive minor mess-ups if it's clear what you actually meant. It's not something to worry about in internet commentary, which is more like an informal chat than formal writing. If you were writing a scientific paper or a politician's speech, this is the time to be concerned about the formal structure and specifics of what's going on.
Edit: it's not to say don't try, just to say don't beat yourself up over small mistakes.
[+] [-] ansimionescu|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dspillett|12 years ago|reply
We are used to subconsciously "translating" what is actually meant from the exact words used, in part because so many people speak English as a second language (that they aren't particularly fluent in), in part because English is such an irregular language in places due to its historical development so even native speakers get a pile of things wrong, and in part because a lot of people particularly online deliberately get it wrong (building their own slang, references, and linguistic in-jokes that often eventually leak out into the wider awareness), and of course also in part because people who do know what is right sometimes make genuine mistakes.
The trick in any language is not to be perfect: it is about getting your message across and understanding other people's communication. If your English is good enough that I can understand your meaning without any great effort on my part, and you can understand what I'm trying to say, then your English is good enough (in fact possibly better, at least formally speaking, than some people native to the language!). Of course you should always strive to improve your skills, but try not to stress over it too much.
[+] [-] waterside81|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MildlySerious|12 years ago|reply
Writing a longer text like you just did can take quite a bit of time and attention, and I think everyone who is in the same situation will acknowledge that as long as the text isn't an unreadable mess.
I hope that's a bit of a motivation!
[+] [-] zhte415|12 years ago|reply
I've worked with a lot of developers from China, who themselves work with developers in India. On a conference call the China sysadmin announces they've verified the C Jia Jia environment and the India developer totally knows what they mean.
C++ in Mandarin is pronounced C Jia Jia.
Don't sweat it.
[+] [-] fremn|12 years ago|reply
no vs know; natives makes this mistake as well.
[+] [-] Nicholas_C|12 years ago|reply
Thanks for explaining this! I work with a few people in South America and they write "de" all the time in e-mails. I kind of figured that's why it happens.
[+] [-] moron4hire|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ardfard|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oscargrouch|12 years ago|reply
In Brazil, at least, only the kids of wealthy families have access to private english courses..
In regular school its just too weak to make a difference.. and of course there are the self-taughts.. a minority..
So, there are a very good social inclusion aspect in all of this.. make the rookie programmers start with the portuguese version.. then maybe they will just hit the english with time.. imposing a language barrier is a sort of elitism that will create a virtual barrier that doesnt do good to anyone..
I dont know why people rant about it, since all the good content is already in english language..
Allow even more people to enter into the technology world is a good thing.. let them learn english later, when theres a need..
[+] [-] te_platt|12 years ago|reply
So on the one hand if the culture of programming is in English (is it?) then I would strongly encourage anyone wanting to program to learn English. On the other hand, helping inject a programming environment into another language seems a worthy goal as well. On balance it seems like stackoverflow is doing the right thing.
[+] [-] drdaeman|12 years ago|reply
Yup, totally centralized. Spent half an hour figuring out where my question should go (StackOverflow vs Programming vs ServerFault vs SuperUser vs Ubuntu vs Unix-and-Linux). Ended up not asking the question at all.
Shall they open some foreign embassies, I guess users'll spend 10 minutes more deciding in which language should they ask (i.e. whenever they prefer native language or bigger community) or duplicate the question.
[+] [-] chc|12 years ago|reply
And it's really not that hard in most cases. Is it an objective question about writing code? It goes on Stack Overflow. Is it about programming as a broader topic? It goes on Programmers. Is it about servers or systems administration? It goes on ServerFault. Is it about general computing? It goes on SuperUser. Is it a highly subjective question about programming? Stack Exchange is not interested in your question.
(I do agree that SO and Programmers seem more like an artificial division than natural categories, but I still don't find it that hard to figure out whether a question is good for SO.)
[+] [-] maaaats|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fabian2k|12 years ago|reply
There is also some overlap, so if you have a question about Ubuntu you can also ask it on Unix&Linux.
[+] [-] gus_massa|12 years ago|reply
The important point is that the moderation should encourage the participation of the not native speakers. If someone post a good question or answer with a few grammatical mistakes, then the expected behavior should be to fix the text and not mock the author.
If you feel like wanting to give back to the community, answer in your native language site, if it exists.
[Disclaimer: I’m a native Spanish speaker, ES-AR to be more precise.]
[+] [-] crazygringo|12 years ago|reply
I never met a developer who had zero English skills. But I also met very, very few developers who could really converse fluently in English. I realized how much additional difficulty a lot of them have with coding, because a lot of them time they can't "just Google it" to find a snippet of code that fixes their problem, or that documents a known platform bug.
And remember that learning English, while not living in an English-speaking country, generally takes years of dedicated work -- you're probably either going to become a good programmer, or good at English, but most people are not going to have the time for both, that's just reality.
So this is a great move on Stack Overflow's part. Kudos. (Plus, Brazilians are basically the world's most active social-network users, so there's always that, too.)
[+] [-] rdtsc|12 years ago|reply
I speak 3 languages and understand 4. Talking about programming, computer science and technology in non-Engish is awkward. It either is necessary to just use English terms anyway for every other noun or struggle with awkward translation of them.
Things like kernel, doubly linked list, hash table, binary tree, greedy algorithm, they are all invented in English and when translating them to other languages, they have a translation but it just sounds very awkward.
So you can have 2 people talking and one uses all translated terminology one uses the "native" equivalent. And yeah if both happen to speak English they'll understand what they mean, but if they don't then they might as well speak different languages. But if they already speak English and it is a public forum, might as well try to speak English.
Anyway that is just my perspective.
[+] [-] pcrh|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] guelo|12 years ago|reply
I think most of the source code people can look at is for open source projects and they always go with english as the default even when there are mostly non-english speaking programmers.
But what does it look inside private corporations?
[+] [-] gedrap|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ufo|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dmunoz|12 years ago|reply
Many Ruby developers won't have a problem with this.
[+] [-] ScotterC|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drdaeman|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Aloisius|12 years ago|reply
I mean, Matz obviously knows English.
[+] [-] iopq|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] msantos|12 years ago|reply
Waldemar Celes
Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
The folks behind Lua (programming language)
[+] [-] frade33|12 years ago|reply
Oh and by the way, India is 2nd and Pakistan is 3rd largest country by number of English language Speakers, 1st of course is USA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-sp...
Moreover, Do I need to name key Google and Microsoft Employees, who were born and bred in India too. :)
[+] [-] marijn|12 years ago|reply
Languages with many speakers have their own 'world'. Kids, and people without higher education in such language areas won't have much opportunity to pick up English. They'll start out without access to English language programming communities. The only way they'll get anywhere in the field is to have alternatives in their own language.
[+] [-] lucian1900|12 years ago|reply
I see it as a remarkably good thing that engineering (and to some extent science) has standardised so much on English and I can only hope that all other walks of life will as well.
It would be so nice if everyone on earth spoke excellent English.
[+] [-] yeukhon|12 years ago|reply
While I agree having a non-English version helps growing the community (as pointed out in the article it could help a young girl to get started), but I am worrying about fragmentation. Also, SO tends to be pretty strict about the way a post is written - so a little girl who is making a post will either be closed or forced to edit. I don't know - it is as if I want people to take the hard route because it can benefit them in the long run.
I really have a mixed feelings about this too.
Side note:
That probably limits the list of potential candidates to Mandarin, Japanese, Portuguese, Russian...
Hmmm it's Chinese since people write in Chinese characters. Mandarin is a dialectic.
[+] [-] ishener|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goshx|12 years ago|reply
TL;DR: I am a Brazilian and it would have been much easier for me if I had the resources I needed available in my mother language.
Long story:
I am a Brazilian. I was born in a small town in Brazil (population: 13k) and I only had access to public schools. Public schools in Brazil do have English classes, however all I remember was them teaching the verb "to be" in every single grade. When I was 15, in 1998, my mom found a way to finance a cheap computer for me. My first access to a computer. Everything was in English. I did not have access to internet initially, but the computer came with a few softwares installed. At the time I also asked my mom to buy me a translation dictionary, so I could learn English. Translating most of the things I was seeing on the screen did not make sense at all, so I just assumed them as part of my vocabulary giving them meanings, but not translations, like "software", or software names... Later, with access to internet (long distance dial up after midnight), it was really, REALLY, hard to search for stuff related to programming because there was almost nothing available in portuguese. I had to learn how to translate properly what I was looking for before I could even do the search. Not sure native English speakers understand this part. So what I tried to do instead was to learn English. I did that by finding lyrics of the songs I liked online (they were easy to find since no translation was needed) and translating them with the help from my dictionary. And this is basically how I learned most of the English that I know. (In fact, I never went to a real English school/class, as you can probably tell at this point by reading this). But dude, I was able to do this because I put A LOT of effort and hours, and nights, doing this, day after day, because I really wanted to learn. (It paid off... I am a H1B living in Miami today)
Learning English is not for everyone. Learning another language is not for everyone. Learning how to code IS WAY MUCH FUN than learning how to speak another language.
While I always tell people to try to learn English, because they're going to have better chances, I believe this should not be a barrier for the average people to learn programming. Or anything, really. You have no idea of how many great developers in Brazil do not speak proficient English.
So, thanks to the guys at Stack Overflow for doing this. I'll make sure I share this with everyone I know that always wanted to learn programming but had English as a barrier.
I am confident that the IT industry in Brazil will be thankful for this in the long term.
Thank you guys.
[+] [-] zhemao|12 years ago|reply
No, I couldn't. You give yourself too little credit. Except for "way much fun", everything you wrote was perfect idiomatic English.
I actually think a lot of us native English speakers are kind of jealous that we have little incentive to become proficient in a foreign language since so much of the worlds information and communication is in English. I know I am. I'm trying to learn Portuguese right now, just for fun, but I know I will never be as fluent in it as you are in English.
[+] [-] smoyer|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 10feet|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BoppreH|12 years ago|reply
http://pt.stackoverflow.com/questions/4021/numero-de-vezes-q... http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21550842/amazon-cloudsear...
Corollary: answer "arbitrage" (translating existing answers for duplicated questions).
[+] [-] V-2|12 years ago|reply
The thing is that the SO format is not suited for extended discussions. Its power lies and shows in brevity.
Like it or not - good working knowledge of English is a must if you consider yourself a professional. (In this field, of course; it's very specific).
If your English doesn't allow you to freely elaborate on the caveats of system architecture, working culture and whatnot, it's perfectly fine in my opinion and nothing to fret about.
But if you can't ask a brief technical question, or you stumble trying to answer one, that's a shortcoming that should be addressed. For your own good, nobody's else
[+] [-] davidcollantes|12 years ago|reply
My mother tongue is Spanish, yet I have no issues with an English only stackoverflow, at all.
[+] [-] _random_|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eknkc|12 years ago|reply
It used to be StackOverflow, I'd go search for something and ask if the search would yield nothing. Now they have a thousand sites and I don't know which one to look at, or ask questions on.
[+] [-] unwind|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Argorak|12 years ago|reply
While quite a few people can read english docs okay, it is far harder to ask proper questions and interact with people. There is always need for clarification. Assistance is far easier without a language barrier.
[+] [-] Walkman|12 years ago|reply